So I was wrong. But I was only making my comment based on fresh air(that between my ears), and not on Easy Jet's communiques!

I think it unlikely that eJ would be using an agency to supply DECs - I suspect that the agency is fishing.

Shaman
 

CTC have provided FO's and Captains to CTC since the start.

They are not fishing and they are not an agency.

Call from CTC today re 18 month contract for LHS on the 737 Luton base. They were very guarded with any more info. Whats a 'flexible contract'? And I thought EJ were getting rid of the NG?

They're leaving slowly. :)

FD3S

Flexible contract is almost certainly a payment per rostered block hour (no basic wage or benefits except staff travel) and no fixed roster pattern. Not quite as bad as it sounds as can make good money if you are flexible and don't mind putting the hours in each month and accepting the lack of life planning ability from month to month. It's comes down to a choice based on personal circumstances. Some hate it, some get on with it and find it's not perfect but it's not too bad after all.

Hope this helps.

Given Easyjet have announced this morning that they are doing better than they expected maybe they can be a little more 'flexible' in what they are offering. Expect another round of bonuses.:yuk:

When will we ever learn.

Closed shop?
 

The following comments have been obtained from easyJet's weekly news update;

Pilot recruitment selection days – November 2010

As we have communicated before the only pilot entry point to a permanent easyJet pilot contract will be from the FlexiCrew pilot pool for the foreseeable future. All external recruitment has ceased (and did so 18 months ago) and the previously populated recruitment holding pools have been closed. In order to support our continued and planned expansion into Europe a further number of permanent easyJet contracts will soon become available primarily in France and Italy. All permanent contracts will be offered from 01 January 2010. To ensure that we get the best pilots for these roles we will be holding an open and transparent selection process for these opportunities. Suitably qualified FlexiCrew pilots currently flying for easyJet from both CTC Parc Aviation will soon be invited to apply for these permanent positions. We will be holding pilot selection/ recruitment days on a number of days in November 2010 to ensure that we employ the best pilots for these positions.
More information about the criteria required to apply for these positions in addition to the application process will follow in the coming weeks……watch this space!

Currently, there are approximately 150 CTC graduates who are ready for Type ratings and being with CTC myself in the final 4 months, I've heard a lot of positive things - for us of course...

Looks like the TRs will be done so eJ will have around 50-100 TR'ed cadets by Feb/Mar 2011, depending on how many more they continue to offer jobs to!

Also, answering your question on 'how do they find the money?' - these cadets have either had a BBVA loan tied down on their parent's mortgage, had their parents remortgage their property or have had the money through life insurance payout etc. Please don't assume they are all rich kids - most of them come from quite modest families that have really put themselves out for their sons or daughters to pursue a career they've always dreamed of...

Cost of training is now in the £75,000 (+£living) mark with another £8-10k for the easyJet TR.

Oh yes... one more thing - I'm so glad the experienced pilot community is so welcoming to the new recruits - I get a somewhat hostile attitude from some of the posts here - It's not our fault we chose a viable training provider who seems to be offering the best chance of getting us into the RHS in the shortest time - Can you hardly blame us? If you have a better idea, please do share!! :ok:

SJ

SJames

Thanks for the post and confirms what has been put throughout the thread that Easy plan to take many cadets which as you state is good news for you.

I can understand your comment too about "glad the experienced pilot community is so welcoming to the new recruits"......

however I think you'll find for the most part that this is pent up frustration at the state of things not at you guys personally. I for one do not believe the state of this industry can be blamed on people joining it!!!

Remember though the experienced pilot community have worked hard like you and sacrificed just as much but now cannot get a job with the likes of Easy (and others) because we have experience. :ugh::ugh:

You too could be in the same position in 2-3yrs time and I am sure you'd find it as frustrating as we do that someone with no experience has better prospects than you do with your 2,000hrs on type....You'll realise by then that CTC is actually destroying the very industry it is in business to feed...Not in any way blaming you just giving you another angle on things and why some of the posts are worded the way they are!!

It should be the pilot community as a whole and in the individual companies that should unite as a group and stand together to make sure current and future joiners are not exploited in order to enter this industry. For some reason we as pilots are not very good at that bit....:

WTF, does this mean that they are "suitably qualified" as FlexiCrew but potentially not for full time employment....? Getting better and better....

I see Norman Stanley Fletcher is vehemently opposed to Direct Entry Captains, which is a bit strange as he was/is one.

Obviously one rule for NSF and one rule for everyone else.

NSF (I imagine...) is against Direct Entry Captains because there is a growing army of fully qualified SFOs at EZY who are ready for a command. The only reason for the company to accept DECs now would be because they are being offered a B scale contract.

NSF would have been accepted as a DEC when EZY were expanding faster than their SFOs could pass the command course.

"One rule for him etc etc" is a bit too simplistic I'm afraid.

So absolutely no one was disadvantaged by NSF as a Direct Entry Captain?

No one waited longer in the right hand seat because NSF got a command first? DECs will disadvantage F/Os no matter what. The individuals concerned will feel aggrieved for a long time.

Commercial expediency was okay then (i.e. to facilitate expansion) but not now to cut costs?

Either you are a man of principal or you are not, simplistic really.

I can assure you that when he got his first command in easyJet a lot of SFO's felt very disadvantaged.

It is this lack of moral courage that is destroying the industry. Either you stick to your principles, i.e. Direct Entry Captains are unacceptable fullstop, because they disadvantage long(er) serving F/O's or you accept the harsh commercial realities.

The harsh commercial reality that the company has turned a reasonable profit during a huge recession, and is expected to now exceed its predicted profit for this year despite snow disruption, ash clouds etc? The company wants DECs to save money when they themselves are making lots of it and distributing it with handsome bonuses to management.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect DECs during the early years of a business as it expands aggressively and they either can't find the talent internally or are physically incapable of training the number of SFOs because the training department can't expand fast enough either. It's not ideal but it's understandable. The DECs are then employed on a full time contract that is the same as the SFO can expect in the future.

Trying to undercut loyal SFOs who are ready for command by offering contracts to external candidates at a lower rate is not acceptable. Neither is trying to cut costs on your training department then feigning surprise when they are no longer able to promote SFOs due to a lack of capacity.

No idea, but it is entirely possible EZY were just short of captains back then. Eh? What? Oh dear.

CTC sweeps the nation for more Flexi-Crew

Not content with bankruptcy, its now University debt PLUS £100,000 flying debt.

Students starting university courses in the UK can expect to owe about £23,000 by the time they graduate.

Rising Student Loan Debt | UK Debt Advice


All this for £1000 per month after repayments..............You'll be dead first before repaying all this.

Major Cleve Saville - you are indeed right in saying that I was once a DEC, and also that I am opposed to their further employment. The two positions are entirely compatible. Many people know who I am, and where I came from, so there are no secrets out there. I joined from another company in 2004 and applied online to come to easyJet as a First Officer. My background was that I had previously been a turboprop Training Captain, but was at that time an A320 F/O in a different airline. When I turned up for the interview at easyLand, they told me they were taking a number of Airbus-experienced FOs as DECs and asked if I would like to be one. Like every other person with a brain in their head who was offered the same deal, I discussed the matter with myself for around a tenth of a second and said 'Yes'. I am not aware of a single qualified FO at easyJet at that time who was disadvantaged by what happened, and took the job that was offered to me with much gratitude. The reality was that easyJet required Airbus Captains at a rate they could not generate internally - under such circumstances the employment of DECs seems an acceptable, and indeed necessary, decision for any company. Under the circumstances that exist today where we have hundreds of suitably qualified FOs, then the employment of DECs would be outrageous. I therefore fail to see what your complaint is - my position is completely consistent.

For those that are interested in such matters, there will be over 160 internal promotions at easyJet in the next year. In addition, we will employ 300 new cadet pilots and will internally promote over 20 new Training Captains. As I have said many times before, we are not perfect. Nonetheless, figures like that should lead to some rejoicing by even those with the emptiest of glasses.

Rejoice for what though NSF? (yay, EasyJet are taking on 300 wannabes, yay) Those figures are doing nothing, absolutely nothing for this industry whatsoever. If it was a free for all then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Those figures are doing nothing to get the job market going again - period.

CC

Coffin corner....
 

You'll have to explain this one to me, easyjet promote 160+ internal SFO's, employ a further 300 new cadet pilots and promote 20 training captains - but this does nothing to 'get the job market going again'!

You must have some logic behind your statement - can you share it?

Pretty obvious, I'd have thought.

Hiring cadets does nothing to move the market as it doesn't affect anyone in the market. Neither does internal promotion. No FOs moving from turboprops to jets so no piston drivers moving onto the TPs, and no instructors moving into piston twins. No ex-military getting employed in civvy street either.
No movement anywhere. No cross-fertilization at all. And we know what effect that has on a closed-cycle gene pool, don't we?

Cadets only = market remains bogged down & static.
Ditto internal promotions only and no DECs.
Closed gene pool = ever increasing proportion of mongs.

Hmm!

http://www.thebereanchronicles.com/v...amned-kids.jpg

Yeh but at least CTC makes shed loads of money as does Easyjet...All about ££££££ and greed!!

And nothing will change until a major accident happens as a result of inexperience on the flightdeck. Even then don't hold your breath.....!:ugh::ugh:

Agree with the above comments, this news does nothing to help the job market at all!!!:(

Agaricus bisporus
 

"Closed gene pool = ever increasing proportion of mongs."

Don't get me wrong. I agree with what you say. But the use of that particular word is, in my opinion, offensive.

It is a word that was and is still a slur used against people unfortunate enough to have menatl disability or Down's syndrome.

We shouldn't use it here to describe Cadet pilots.:=:=:=

It is a really big change to the industry which many have not yet fully appreciated. The time honoured path, Air Work> small TurboProp> Larger T/P/Command/Small Jet> Large jet/Large Airline is pretty much dead because at the larger airline stage the only hiring is through cadet schemes/SSTR.

300 new jobs at one large UK airline used to mean 300 new jobs one rung down the ladder and one rung further down from that at other UK airlines or flying businesses. Lots of promotions, lots of happy people, lots of opportunities.

Not really the case any more :(


WWW

Stansdead

Don't get me wrong. I agree with what you say. But the use of that particular word is, in my opinion, offensive.

It is a word that was and is still a slur used against people unfortunate enough to have menatl disability or Down's syndrome.

I don't think Agaricus bisporus meant it to be offensive. My eldest son has Downs and I didn't take his comment to be offensive as he wasn't using it in that context...

I think we all agree though that it isn't great news for the industry unless you have shares in CTC or are a cadet!!

Cheers

Hmm, think you may have messed up the year there, NSF, or I am reading your post incorrectly. Doubt you applied in 1994 to easyJet as the company started up the following year ;)

NSF

I am not sure if you are being disengenuous but it is clear that if you join a company as a DEC you disadvantage anyone with a date of joining before yours (if you joined in 1994 well done!) who has to wait (for any period of time) for a command. Are you honestly telling me that not one pilot who joined before you ever had to wait for a command slot? If they did you disadvantaged them. Having taken a command, when there were no internal candidates and it was neccessary to allow expansion, did you stand down when the first F/O who joined berfore you became suitable? If not you diadvantaged him/her. Right now if any cadet who joined easy before 2004 is still waiting for a command they have a right to feel disadvantaged by you.

What you seem to want is that all airlines now have a strict seniority list (now that you are in a good position) and only promote internally (British Airways?). if this was strictly applied at ezy at some time you would have lost your command to someone more senior when they became suitable.

I see some similarities here between the BA Cabin Crew who want to tell BA how to run thed company and some of the posters who want to tell easy who they should employ and promote. The fact is that there is generally a free market in jobs and pilots. easyJet management feel the need to maximise profits and play the markets, individuals (incluing NSF) asume the right to play the market and take opportunities as they arise to better their position. The difference is?

The truth is that the free market has created more airlines an pilots jobs than ever BEA/BOAC ever did yet that is the model that you seem to aspire to. A heavily unionised closed shop now you are alright jack.

Iam in the same situation as Superpilot. I've over 2000hrs on 737 and would like the chance to apply for Easy. Is there no route open to me and others like me??

I would have thought it was blindingly obvious. Think of the airline industry as a complete entity, then think of EJ as a smaller entity. What is happening inside EJ is that the bubble (pilots) is expanding, but they are just sat there, on their own, as a single entity doing whatever they want, it has no effect on the rest of the industry when you talk pilot recruitment. The reason is simple, they are taking on cadets "off the street" (not literally), their recruitment drive has no effect on experienced pilots, none whatsoever. This means the industry is still as stagnant as it was before they started.
I would have loved to move across to EJ, and probably make a career there, but to be honest I don't think I want to work there now. They are starting to make Ryanair look attractive.

WWW

So are your views now changing from telling wannabes on the wannabe forum that it'll be years before they get a look in to a view that these very people are the only ones who are going to get on in the industry? Surely you must now get in there and tell them all to train as fast as they can, right now, because they have more chance of progressing than an experienced pilot, because lets face it, that is exactly what is happening.

A seniority based command system is a fair way to promote in a mature airline which easy now is and DEC when many F/Os are suitable is unfair. This is different from a few years ago when there were none available, I don't see a problem with DECs then. The excuse for not promoting onto the 737 is the cost of type rating bus F/Os, however a lot of us are still within 5 years of flying the 737 so would need only LPC/OPC, this is perhaps unkind.
It is bad that we no longer recruit from the traditional route, this is solely for cost reduction and a lucrative contract for CTC. Much as the cadets are all well trained and keen, they do lack experience and need more coaching from captains in many situations. having such a large percent of low experience pilots must degrade safety margins somewhat. There have been a few minor incidents over the last few months which probably would not have happened with an experienced F/O but cutting costs/next 1/4 profits rule until something serious happens.

Couple of points. Well, more rhetorical questions, that if anyone wants to respond to, I'd be interested in the answers.

1. WHY does ANYONE consider a seniority system a "fair" way of recruiting. It is absolutely UNfair. Why should someone with bare minimum competence to pass the upgrade course get this honour ahead of someone else who is a better/more experienced pilot? Ezy and Fr are great examples of companies where people got early commands [in the early years!] with comparitively little experience. Given the whinge about 'cadets' is always about low experience, this seems yet another example of "one rule for me, another for you". Promotion based on seniority seems to be only really prevalent in the airline industry, every other company on the planet decided long ago that competence based recruitment was a far better solution. In context of aviation, seniority is the one thing that traps people in a given company and therefore doesn't help, it restricts.

2. Whilst I agree with the sentiments expressed by Superpilot, it does make me chuckle - the amount of smug self righteousness expressed by [some of] those who went modular at how much money they saved over "the poor dumb rich mummy/daddys boys who went integrated because they were too thick/lazy/ugly/ responsible for endangered species dying out to do it themselves", which is then promptly followed by wails and gnashing of teeth that they can't get a [jet] job because the only route in is via these schemes that are run by the integrated schools. No, it's not right, but next time, when you're just about to launch into a tirade about the poor dumb rich kids, stop and think about who is really the fool - the fool who spent £100k but got the job in the end [irrespective of whether 'the dream' turned out to be a dream or a nightmare], or the fool who spent £50k and got nothing to show for it.....

3. Cadets/inexperienced/accidents etc. Yes, undoubtedly cadets aren't as experienced as someone with 1000s of hours. That's just logical. However, show me the pilot who just woke up one day and found they had 5000 hours experience on the bus or boeing that they didn't have the night before. You ONLY get experience by 'experiencing' it. Would 1500 hours - as often suggested - in a Cessna 152 REALLY make you any better a pilot in the MRJTs [than, for the sake of comparing apples with apples, a cadet who went straight to an MRJT and now has 1500 tt, 1300 on type]? Personally I seriously doubt it. The two aircraft are totally different beasts and the airmanship applicable to a Cessna is probably only very loosely transferable to an MRJT. The reason Cadets are here to stay is because you can't find/imply/prove a link between their inexperience and safety. For every Kos accident, the airlines will show you 1000 flights operated safely with a low hourer in the cockpit. Then they'll show you another 10 accidents of a similar nature that were crewed by experienced crews only. And with each passing day, the number of flights safely operated by low experience crews goes up worldwide. I agree - really I do, that it's not right that these "screw the new guy" deals are the only way in for the moment. I agree that logically, a less experienced crew is likely to be less safe than a more experienced crew, but the only link you can make between inexperience and safety is the entirely logical assertion that if the experience levels are lower, then overall safety is likely to be lower than it could be....NOT that it's UNSAFE....because it manifestly ISN'T unsafe, is it.

Coffin Corner
 

Why focus on EZY? All other airlines operating this type of equipment are doing exactly the same! Actually operators like jet2 are doing a damn sight more to lower T's & C's! So your argument that I should think of EZY as an entity does not hold much substance. But I can think of EZY as an entity if you wish, but then I would have to think of Thomas Cook, BMI, Thompson, RYR, Monarch, Jet2 as entities as well.

Its a sad fact that this is the way airlines operate now. No consolation to those with a few thousand hours experience who are waiting to move up the ladder.

I had expected the demographic balance at EZY to be addressed by DEP's but they dont seem to think this is necessary.

Because :ugh: this :ugh: thread :ugh: is :ugh: all :ugh: about :ugh: EasyJet :ugh:


:ugh:

clanger,

I suggest you reread your post later from your future position as a trainer -which I sincerely hope you can achieve- and then you may understand how wrong you are.
You clearly haven't got a clue about the real added value of experience.... how it actually increase safety margins, had it been acquired on a jet or on a turboprop... but only experience can teach you that.

And none of the contributors on here claim to be experienced on a cessna 152 only my friend. Many have jet/heavy turboprop experience. So your comments on the matter are a bit insulting or I would simply say loose their validity based on the lack of maturity they show

You are not conscious of what you don't know.
Aviation safety is a lot more than doggy statistics one individual may dream of...
it's also about what actually goes on in the cockpit that is not quantified or necessarily publicly said but very well felt by the trainer / capt who have to show extra vigilance towards the newbie he's got to coach. This affects general situaional awareness. While it is acceptable within reasonable proportions, it certainly should not become the rule because then safety is affected and accident occurence is just a matter of time.
Why do ya think major airlines don't exclusively take cadets but also broaden their recruitments to experienced drivers ?
I 'm sure you'll grow up.

As for the fool who should have paid 50k instead of 100k .... :hmm:

Coffin - I will continue to share my opinion on the Wannabes forums that the chances and opportunities for airline employment are very poor, have been ruinous and are likely to remain poor next year. I will also continue to advise that the best way into an airline job is to first exhaust any opportunities to join CTC/Any Other SSTR and to expect to pay for everything including Type Rating therefore budget for £100,000.

Even 300 jobs isn't that much when you have just 2 schools outputting that many CPL/IR holders every year...


WWW

Clanger,
 

Re your second point, the fact is there are plenty of integrated route pilots who are in exactly the same position as the modular guys now too.

Sadly WWW has it right. The world is changed. When I qualified in 2003, I was sick of being told "come back when you've got some hours and experience". Then the rules changed and pilots started stumping up cash to buy ratings to get themselves ahead of the competition, but most airlines still wanted time on type, so at least with airline time and no rating, you stood a chance. Now its' become "your experience is irrelevant, how much cash have you got/how low a wage will you accept".

So in many ways, how you got your licence is irrelevant too, as long as you satisfy the entry requirements of the pimps who hawk cadets out to airlines.

Cost is king these days and despite the rhetoric the transient managers that most airlines employ don't care about workforce and it's experience as long as legal minimums/standards are met, and they hit their targets and get their bonuses. Chances are, if something serious happens, it won't be on their watch as they will have ticked the box on their CV to get another rung up the greasy pole somewhere else.

I like the majority of pilots paid a lot of cash (whatever route they took to get there) to qualify to operate commercial air transport. After 3000 hours of flying people around, learning along the way and enjoying doing so, it would be nice to progress both in terms of type and income and reduction of training debt. I never expected to become rich by becoming a pilot, but I never expected to be here solely to line the pockets of others either.

Luckily, I have a job at the moment, but I don't see much hope (or point) in progressing until something changes dramatically.

So Easy, like so many others has become a closed door to my generation of pilots.

Bitter? Frankly, yes.

To those pilots advocating promotion and strict seniority etc please consider that in todays volatile economic environment, if every airline only promoted on seniority / date of joining then, should you be unemployed you will have to start again as a junior F/O at a new company.

As a profession do we think it fair that someone with 20+ years in command possibly a TRI/TRE etc etc has to start again at the bottom of the pile.

Is this how other professions operate, surgeons in a new hospital start again as junior doctors? lawyers changing firms become articled clerks?

Strict seniority is great for those in companies 'too big to fail' and for the trade unions as a recruitment tool, but if captains have in effect the 'not so golden hand-cuff's on and cannot ever afford to walk / change jobs the easyJets of this world would know they have us over a barrel.

There seems to be a lot of criticism of CTC on these threads as if it is the evil empire. Why? They provide a service, for which there is a demand, which people and companies use of their own free will.

Maybe the real problem is the lack of third and second level operators in the UK operting piston or turboprops.

Low houred pilots converting onto a jet face a bigger challenge than those gaining experience on turboprops, so they have to start from a higher base line. All the major airlines have always used Hamble/Oxford/Perth now CTC for their cadet programmes, some foreign carriers still do.

Are we proposing we stop people from paying for their training to force the airlines to sponsor? In which case where do the airlines find the funds for cadet scemes, by limiting pay to fund these schemes of course. It will come out of the crewing budget as a crew cost, so we all pay in lower salaries. People have always had the freedom to pay if they choose. Nothing new there.

It is a big bad capitalist world out there NSF & co. thats life, stuff happens, no such thing as a free lunch, you cannot beat the market etc etc!!

In truth, this thread is entirely irrelevant until you get the recruitment team so sign up here, for we in BALPA have no say in what the company decides to hire. We can try to stop DEC, but we only succeed in that because the company seems to prefer upgrading internally as new commanders are known quantities and the company won't get stuck with some porker who got his command in a third world airline.

So, be bitter if you like, but you're banging on the wrong door.

Yes, I have to agree with this as well. The reality has been somewhat masked by the recession over the last couple of years, but if you bridge the gap between what was an accelerating process prior to that point, and what is likely happen over the coming years as that process is resumed, then here is the reality of what has happened and what is happening. The future is speculative.

Airlines have no burning need for "two hundred and something hour" pilots. Never had, don't now, and probably never will. Airlines represent the top tier of the cake in this industry, and as such they attract a large number of aspirational career advancers. The traditional terms and conditions (to varying degrees) always reflected that reality.

Discounting the small proportion of genuine cadet / apprentice / low hour schemes that a few companies operated in times long gone, the growth in this business came about as a result of a number of legislative and economic factors.

Changes to licencing requirements as a result of the introduction of European "JAR" regulations meant that the hours requirement for a CPL/IR not acquired as a result of an integrated course was reduced from 700 hours to 250 hours. This brought it more into line with the FAA system whereby a CPL/IR was regarded in practice as more of an "aerial work" (instructing / air taxi/ etc.) licence, than an airline entry certificate.

The rapid expansion in the low cost sector of the industry coupled with the competitive threat to established operators that new leaner practices brought with them, meant that companies sought to eliminate or reduce input costs wherever they existed and where they could do so without unduly jeopardising their businesses, or running foul of the regulator.

One way they could achieve this was to tap into the enormous relative supply of aspirational trainee pilots who would fund their own training and pay for the all the type related costs associated with an induction into their businesses.

Bearing in mind the previous paragraph, many of them sought candidates from affiliated or single school programs where there was a large measure of verifiable quality and consistency that they could monitor. In some cases these candidates also could be "purchased" from the supplier on a sale or return basis, and often the candidates came with a self funded cash guarantee bond, that only had be refunded over a number of years. This enabled those airlines to introduce a whole new level of remuneration that reflected the experience level of these cadet programs, without much of the previous training cost or risk.

As is now being seen here, as any degree of new recruiting arises it seems very llikely that however modified, this is still going to be the best hope for low hour pilots looking to jump the experience gap into the right hand seat of an airliner. That jump is likely to require a recognised (by the airline concerned) course of training, and the necessary funds or guarantees to asssume the risk for the costs of training, tenure, and discretionary employment costs.

It is to be hoped that regulatory oversight and insurance risk related costs, will result in airlines continuing to require a significant proportion of experienced candidates for these right seat positions, but as this expansion is still evolving that remains to be seen.