Jb5000
 

The doctor analogy is relevant. I think most people would ask questions why a brand new doctor is performing an operation because he,s paid 35 grand to the hospital to get experience(especially if it was on them!). Questions which most people would ask of airline pilots paying airlines 35grand to "get experience" flying the paying public around! Whether programme makers or the press would be interested remains to be seen. As regards you,re former points, yes I,m sure airlines/regulator(use the term loosely) would make exact same but the Thomas cook accident report is worth a read. Were those high standards maintained with a paying "cadet"? The strong suggestion is not. As I mentioned previously money can alter "standards" if the senior pilots allow it (within any organisation). I suspect starbear is correct, maybe we are as a proffesion in the uk at a point of no return to decency,integrity and respect. What a shame particularly for new pilots.

Groundloop
 

Bit of crossed wires here.

My reference to the Colgan one was due to issues around the inability of poorly paid crews to afford proper rest facilities whilst commuting and so is very relevant. I was not suggesting anything to do with experience in that case, though I grant you that answer was in response to flieng's point about P2F and general reductions in terms and conditions.

I agree here with 'NSF' and 'BITMORERIGHTRUDDER' . A DEC that has never flown the operation in the kind that easyjet is doing might have a lot of struggle going online with easyjet, especially if he has been flying long haul for the last 20 year.
It would take a lot more training than training some of the SFO's who are used to the whole operation, aircraft etc.
Second, those that say, what if you would be made redundant and can't find a job as a captain you would think diffirently.
My answer would be what if you are the SFO and you are being bypassed by another DEC because he is on the so called eternal senority list after you have done 10 years in the company. It is all perspective and which side you are on. It is very unfortunate that people are being made redundant, but you can't expect airlines to give you all the loyalty, rewards etc that someone has build up to someone who has not flown a day in the company.

I agree that experience is nowadays not being recognised within airlines when it comes down to recruitment and I sincerly hope that that will change. But there has to be limit in how far you will go and my limit would be disadvantaging the staff in your own airline.

Major Saville - Delighted and impressed as I am at your longevity in the airline industry, you have to win the argument rather than assume your position give you greater insight than the rest of us. I am highly amused to be called a socialist - many an insult has been levelled at me in my life but never that one! Just out of interest, were I to be a Mancunian or Liverpudlian socialist, would my views be more acceptable than those of a Glaswegian socialist? The slight difficulty with some of the posts on here is that they are essentially personal insults, and largely devoid of any cogent or reasoned discussion points. By all means see me as self-serving - that is for others who know me to judge the truth of, and I would not seek to rob you of your assured position. For what it is worth, I personally have nothing whatsoever to gain from seniority at easyJet. My sole interest is that the pilots already working here are spared the inevitable abuses of position that occur when no protections are in place to prevent them.

Like so much that passes for reasonableness in life, through the croodile tears and feigned shock, all I really hear are the voices of vested interests couched in terms of genuine concern. Would not life be so much easier if all those nasty young First Officers at easyJet were swept aside to make way for real pilots with proper experience? They can do their time like the rest of us - get them to the back of the queue where they belong. As the good Major has observed, the changes in the airline industry of recent years has made way for companies like ours to flourish, and like many others at easyJet I am a net beneficiary. Why on earth should the pilots at easyJet roll over to let in the Billy Bunters of the airline industry who have suddenly seen a dripping roast pass by in front of them? Join the queue chaps.

Back to the main topic, there are interesting times ahead at easyJet. The signs are that we yet empty our command pool in the next year or so. The very short-sighted position of only employing 200-hour pilots instead of those with signficant experience to smooth the experience demographics of the company, may yet come to bite us in a big way. I have always held that we need to recruit in a balanced manner, but as many will recognise, we have not done so. That is not to denigrate our excellent CTC pilots. The problem is they have low hours and will not be available for promotion in the next 2 years - either through lack of hours or because most will have left to join BA! That could yet open the door to a radical change of employment practices within easyJet - few things concentrate the mind more than aircraft sat on the ground with no one to command them. I am much criticised for being too positive about easyJet, and I unashamedly enjoy working here. I want to see a company where effort of the pilots inside the company is rewarded, rather than those outside coming in to take the best deals. I am not anti-DECs per se - but as long as there are suitably qualified FOs here to promote, they have to get first bite of the cherry. Self-serving? Maybe. Concerned for our own guys first? I hope so.

Guys, there are no and will not be any DEC's while there are SFO's in the command pool, my guess is that by 2013 DEC's will be back as there are no SFO's ready. As long as it does not disadvantage someone ready for the command I see no issue, EZY have taken them in the past alongside internal promotions and it never slowed any commands down, it was a matter of pure volume. Just over 4 years to command is still very quick, over 100 commands internally next year is huge no other UK carrier would even be close in terms of time to command.

As for Seniority, EZY pretty much has it in the most legal form available that was agreed during consultation last year.


Right, back in the box.........

Yes very interesting times ahead.

NSF is right, the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets. Time will tell and the companies ability to sort out its internal difficulties will be key in retaining the more experienced F/Os who we will need to step up to command in the next couple of years. Bear in mind the aircraft orders tail off after 2012 and Stelios is still keen to limit expansion and pay a dividend despite sorting out the brand license issue.

Many of the F/O's have sacrificed a great deal and taken a huge risk to be with us and some of them work under pretty crappy t&c's. I for one will support them all the way in progressing to command and defend their right to have first pickings. If we passed people over in favour of external candidates it would be an outrage. That said we could run out of internal candidates and then we would need to look outside. There is also a business review occurring and recruitment may be reviewed as part of this which could lead to a policy change.

Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond. They become a known product and risk is more easily managed. However for it to work easyJet need to retain them and on their current terms that could be tricky.

I have asked before and I will ask again: why the email from CTC recently asking suitably qualified Captains to update their details at CTC for "upcoming UK and European DEC A320 positions"?

Far from being an old schooler, who can't pass up a free dinner - or whatever NSF alluded to, I'm young, qualified, experienced and current.

I've worked hard to achieve, hold and make a success of my Command. Like others, I hope easyJet recruit DEC's again soon.

Self serving. You bet. That's exactly why I left my excellent A340 RHS job to join a small, expanding A320 company as a DEC. Now, I'd like to join easyJet. That was always my hope.

Ultimately yes, but also not really. Those making these recruitment decisions won't be here in 3-4 years time to be affected by what it might mean (ring any bells?) It will be 'bye-bye' time like the last lot with 5 million in the back pocket. That's the problem with easyJet and its decision making management - its short termism for gross gain.

I would like to agree with this statement but I can only say 'Good-Luck'. Unless you have had a previous flying career (s), topping up a pension or have an unyeilding masochistic disorder, I really can't see any cadet staying at easyJet for an entire career.

It's far too brutal.

stansdead I don't wish you or others in your position ill but you will appreciate that it is right we look after our own first. They have worked hard too and taken real risks to be were they are. They will have come through our training system and will be a known quantity which will always make them less risk than someone from outside on both safety and operational grounds. I'm not saying that no one from outside would be suitable, far from it, but the associated risks are greater because you are taking an unknow product (peoples files don't follow them around unlike the airforce) that is unfamiliar with the operation.

Craggemore I agree which is why I qualified my statement by mentioning that current T&Cs will make it difficult to retain our people. Maybe that will change under our new CEO but I'm not holding my breath.

NSF - easyJet a 'dripping roast'? I have had 2 brief flirtations with easyJet. The first back in the mid 90's when it was a 2 aircraft operation which was very enjoyable. The second in the 21st century which, on the level of plain old fashioned employer - employee relationship level was not.

Call me old school Billy Bunterish but just being a number on the end of a telephone ordered about by someone you have never met seems rather impersonal. It is hard to get truly engaged and feel part of a company like easyJet or Ryanair etc.

These are my impressions:

EasyJet is a sales and marketing company which just happens to be selling airline tickets the employees (pilots crew) are a means of production nothing more or less.

The smart cadets realise that a career with any low cost carrier is not much of a career. Basically 40 years flying the same sorts of flights on the same or similar type. The smart cadets will do their sums and move on. And quite frankly they deserve better after the investment they have made.

The management of easyJet know that their pilots have a 'life expectancy' of about 7 years, they expect a high turnover. This is a result of the business model. It will never change. They could choose to be like SouthWest they don't, why? Because the people who run easyJet (and Ryanair) have no interest in or understanding of aviation. Whereas pilots are the opposite, in it for the flying not interested in sales or marketing.

Seniority lists will not change this, a free market will at least ensure market rate for the job.

I work with a few ex-easyJet pilots and quite frankly if this is a 'dripping roast' we would rather be a vegetarians.

Do I want to work for any low cost carrier - no. There is more to life than being a number ordered about by a spotty youth on a telephone.

Life is short, quality of life is important and I, and alot of others did not get into aviation for this type of lifestyle.

I work for a company where I at least get to say good morning to all the staff eye to eye. Where we treat each other with mutual respect and I feel I am valued and a part of the organisation.

Oh and NSF I do know you.

I don't know about Easy being a dripping roast.

More accurate would be the industry is a spit roast! Cos we are getting :mad: from all directions.

D and F :ooh:

There is a certain attraction to gaining you Command in a large jet airline in your 20's and you need to have been in Ezy/Ryr to have achieved that or to be able to achieve it. Don't discount that factor, it can set you up for life.

I don't think the pool of SFO's will run dry. There was a massive spike of recruitment circa 2006 which must now be getting close to being ready. Then there is the previous bad experiences with DEC's (LGW banzai approach etc).


WWW

WWW
 

...and then there are very sensible, talented and safe DEC's too.

As NSF said himself, he was a DEC.

It seems that everyone who didn't join easyJet - for whatever reason- in the "good old days" must be really sh1t. At least so it seems.

6000+ hours. 5800 jet, flown big and small Airbus, Boeing. Been in every continent of the world, never had any incident. Never failed any checks. Integrated student. CTC ATP academy cadet (when that was a really tough thing to be selected for - I.e. When it was free of charge). Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....

What the heck is a Banzai approach? I honestly don't know....

....please enlighten me!!! And why are CTC talking about DEC jobs? Still, no-one dare address that Elephant in the room!!

[QUOTE]I could go on….[QUOTE]

Don't bother . . . . :zzz:

Man, you sound like a perfect replacement for NSF when he retires! One DEC replacing the next! :yuk:

Major Cleve Saville, hear hear! Very good points indeed! :ok:

Indeed. There are some pilots who, if offered a permantent contract, would stay.

Unfortunately, though, there are an equal number of people, if not more, who see easyJet as a stepping stone.

Personally, I joined CTC before things became as sour as they now are. I will be trying to get a permanent contract with easyJet soon, having already flown with them for some time through CTC. If I were to gain this contract, the prospect of a relatively quick command at or before the age of 30, would certainly make me want to stay.

It is a shame, however, that the company expect to see us come and go and are happy to do so.

Stansdead, you went to an airline that pays a captain's salary which is less than the SFO salary in our European bases to get a command and then you think you can come queue jumping here? You went for the command which was attractive to you. Use it where you are. It is folly to expect people in easy to step aside for your ambitions. Hopefully, DEC is a thing that will never be needed in easy again.

Well said!
It is true that we are now at the size were we can look after ourself's regarding Captains.
All we have to do now is create realistic and attractive new entry FO contracts..

If you say this then I don't think that you've been at Easy for long (not having a permanent contract as you state, is a clue.)

As a CTC cadet in your early 20's, year 1 at Easy is great fun.
Year 2 is also good.
Year 3 you're starting to get a little hacked off with things.
Year 4 you start to consider leaving but are unsure as command might be coming up.
Year 5 you now want to leave but have a command course planned.
Year 6 you turn down that chance to join other Airlines to pass your command course.

So now a Year 1 Captain and the extra money is great.
Year 2 Captain and the gained experience settles you nicely into the job.
Year 3 Captain and...............................then what?

30 years old, Captain, good income but another 35 years until retirement with Easyjet? Thats a really tough call.

Personally, I don't think anyone could stay for a whole career here the way things are at the moment.

I only hope that 'uSay' is taken seriously by the new management for these hopes and aspirations to become reality.

Craggenmore..

Indeed. But only time will tell. If I get a permanent contract and if I manage to get a reasonably quick command, my mind may have changed by then. Perhaps I will want to try and go through the training route, perhaps I may be sick to death of the place and exploring every oppportunity to get out. I need to make sure I get a contract before any of this is a consideration, anyway.

I hope uSay is taken seriously too. Certainly every pilot I have spoken to, contract, FO or Captain, has had some strong input about the way things are. I think it's such a shame that they haven't done more to keep their pilots. Perhaps things might change if there is an exodus... But then again, maybe not.

Of the 90 commands at easyJet this year the AVERAGE time in the company was 4 years and 4 months for the 90.

Argue with the numbers.

Joining in your early to mid 20's and getting the big payrise (and twice as many job opportunities) before your 30's is, has and will be possible.


WWW

Really Annoyed
 

You do not have a clue what you are talking about. How do you know what I get paid?

If you are so sure that I earn less than an easy SFO, let's see the numbers. I don't think you are correct. You don't even know what my role is in my company.

So, before you go shouting your mouth off, DEC's will happen again in easyJet and I look forward to taking one.

Stop being so arrogant, answer my question. Why are DEC's being "tapped up" for jobs at easy by CTC?

It's gonna happen and to make people like you wait, I'll jump at the chance.

There you go, I tried to be civil, but you deserve to be told.... easyJet have since time immemorial,taken DEC's. Why stop now? Just because you think you are good enough? Get real. It's business, stupid.

a) You don't know WHO CTC might be acting on behalf. You are assuming it is ezy...

b) Placing a cheap ad to test the market is a long way from actually running interviews and sim check so don't run before your theory can even walk.

c) Making 'bold' claims about your future intentions to 'take' an easyJet DEC on an Internet discussion board, populated by people involved, whilst relying on anonymity is an 'interesting' approach.


I'll wager there will be no Permanent DEC's in Easyjet and I'll further wager stansdead that you won't get one. Sunshine. ;)


WWW

stansdead like Ashling I am not unsympathetic to your position. It may well be that you a competent, capable bloke - that is not the issue. EasyJet has so much going for it, despite some incredibly frustrating and largely unnecessary failings that could so easily be ironed out. Our world has improved considerably with the arrival of a new CEO and her removal of our dire Ops Director. Therefore, you are right to want to come here, because it has much to commend it compared to other airlines around. Nonetheless, we simply cannot be in the business of helping DECs fulfil their ambitions as long as we have any promotable FOs available from our own ranks. We should not be embarrassed in any way to first and foremost look after our own guys before we consider those outside. I am not a betting man, but it is one of the safest bets I know that you will not be getting a DEC at easyJet. Reading your petulant demands for that Command at easyJet, which for reasons that escape me you believe is owed you, is a truly uninspiring sight. There are literally hundreds of top FOs in the queue before you, and there are some powerful people out there who will fight tooth and nail to ensure they get there before carpetbaggers like yourself.

Major Cleve Saville - No one is asking you to work for low cost carriers - I actually quite like it, but that is just a personal choice. By the way, your little references to me in your posts make you sound more and more like a stalker by the moment - it really is not considered good form to do that sort of thing on here old chap, but if that is what floats your boat then do carry on. I am delighted you want to work for your current employer and that is just great. And if people want to leave easyJet after a few years then that is great too. In the meantime those that stay just need to ensure they are not royally stuffed by Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, who want to jump their place in life's queue.

Regarding stansdead's very interesting question about CTC's requirement to fill upcoming 'UK and European DEC A320 positions', I am as intrigued as he is. I have heard that they have various non-easyJet contracts on the go, but I also know they are in ongoing discussions with the Company. This is the downside of easyJet - happy, smiling faces across the table chatting away nicely to BALPA reps about how we must all work together to make easyJet wonderful. In the meantime, the very same people are doing dirty deals over beer and sandwiches with CTC to stuff us completely. Time will tell, but if DECs are introduced in the current climate, then major industrial strife will occur. I believe Carolyn McCall is too clever to risk the excellent raport she is building with the pilots over a foolish and totally unnecessary dispute.

FACT: Well I've been in Wizzair so I know what stansdead takehome is, even if he manages to 'avoid' paying tax the take-home is less than an SFO on the continent. Poland is a lot cheaper though!

Managers walk the tightrope in running a business trying to balance doing what is right, and what is necessary. Although the last two departed managers were doing what was necessary for their bonuses the current incumbents will, and I believe are, viewing the major part of our current "crew disconnect" and being largely solvable by crewing at the correct levels. If the training department can't train enough fast enough then there will likely be some DEC positions to plug the gap. Better that than contract captains which would set an unacceptable precedent.
My money is on a handfull of DECs this summer.

I believe Balpa members would prefer a handful of fixed term contract Training Captains over DEC's. As you say - it will be training capacity and not SFO numbers that will likely be the issue.

I only know of three Captains ever asked to leave/fired and they were all DEC's. It's like Forest Gumps chocolates - you never (really) know what you're going to get despite the best efforts of the recruitment team. Whereas SFO's with 4+ years in the company are a fairly well tasted chocolate and unlikey to turn into an Orange Creme in the LHS...

DEC's won't happen.


WWW

Does anybody know if BALPA are doing anything about the poor flexi-contracts?

Hey Folks someone:

(can't say who, but he is an EZY DEC who doesn't think DECs should not be allowed in EZY (except for him, 'cos he is special) but thinks EZY is, golly gosh, the bestest airline ever with the highest standards ever. Who wants F/Os to be promoted in turn, (except if he wants a command quick) but doesn't like the CTC ones 'cos he thinks CTC are evil, he wants nice F/O's magic'ed out of thin air that didn't cost anybody anything).

keeps referring to ME by name on this thread apparently that's bad form here on pprune! How do I protect my honour from his evil intent?

Yours in fear of an apparently (allegedly) complete stalker!!!

Major Cleve Saville

Stansdead, you have written in a wizzair thread what you make. You can do your own research about SFOs on the continent to find out that you are junior on the pay front. You got your command. Enjoy it. Be bitter if you like, but neither easyJet nor any other company owes you any DEC position, although you seem to think so.

I can't tell you why CTC is advertising for A320 captains as I do not work for CTC. I am sure they will tell you if you contact them.

Hey Folks someone:

(can't say who, but he is an EZY DEC who doesn't think DECs should not be allowed in EZY (except for him, 'cos he is special) but thinks EZY is, golly gosh, the bestest airline ever with the highest standards ever. Who wants F/Os to be promoted in turn, (except if he wants a command quick) but doesn't like the CTC ones 'cos he thinks CTC are evil, he wants nice F/O's magic'ed out of thin air that didn't cost anybody anything, and DEC's are all no good (except for him 'cos he is just sooo special).

keeps referring to ME by name on this thread apparently that's stalking and 'bad form here on pprune'! (it must be he says so!!). How do I protect my honour from his evil intent?

Yours in fear of an apparently (allegedly) complete stalker!!!

Major Cleve Saville

WWW,

You are a pompous fool. You dispense advice like you are the "sun king". You know absolutely nothing about whether I would or wouldn't get a DEC job at EZY. You are nobody. Sunshine...:ok:

Open Des,

I'm not a regular Captain - I'm lucky therefore, I pay full UK tax and I earn well above an SFO salary in EZY. In any base. And who says I'm in Poland?

Part of the problem with some of you is that you all think that you are, somehow, better than everyone else. Or better qualified. Well, I'd hazard a guess that you are not. For example, how many eJ pilots as a % number have any experience of commercial flying outside of even Europe? Heaven forbid even in the USA, Australia, Africa (proper Africa, not Morocco or Algeria)? About 20% maybe.

Don't worry though, with idiots like WWW to fly the flag from Bristol for you, you will of course be able to pretend you have more experience and ability than you really do.

As for SFO salaries. Have you clever chaps ever thought that eJ may force those in Spain to go to LGW at a month's notice - or whatever is required. Even with a relocation package, it will be cheaper to rebase those costly Euro contracts permanently. Welcome to DEC's elsewhere in your network.... when the euro contract was designed, the exchange rate was about 1.5 euro to a pound. Now it has been rebased - longterm - to between 1.1 and 1.2 it seems. Not sustainable. Enjoy your old euro contracts while they last boys and girls. The world has changed and you will have too as well......:D:D:D

Would that be 'Terry's Chocolate Orange'.........:ok:

Really annoyed.
 

People do get promoted. I have been. i earn a lot more now. Honestly.

Where did I ever say eJ owe me a Command? A lot of you guys obviously think that all your FO's are owed one though. It doesn't work that way though. Sorry...... it is business.

You obviously have no clue about the salaries and conditions on the continent, not that it should be of any concern to you of course. And in the highly unlikely case that I would be relocated I would be a rich man with the relocation package. :D I will then join Wizzair as DEC and trainer, I will be able to live on peanuts from then on.

DEC's are not going to happen btw!
(and if they do, since you're a rich man, you can pay me to be your reference)

Yeah, I am sure you know a lot more about easyJet than us in the company, Stansdead. I hope you can see how hollow it sounds when you try to toot your own horn about the greatness of wizzair while desperately trying to get people to think you would be a super asset as a DEC in easyJet. You took a gamble and lost. Deal with it instead of crying over it. However, there may be a spot for you in Major Seville's outfit.

Hi Stansdead,

(oh sorry just realised I mentioned you directly, not stalking you just a big manly matey first name greeting, honest!).

Come and join us but only if you want a UK Pound 6 figure package tax free. Be prepared to fly only 55-60 hours a months.

Oh, and be careful with the crockery your crew meal comes in it's expensive.

Oh, and we are looking for DEC's at the moment so www (sorry not stalking, honest) and voldemort (can't mention his name stalking or sexual harrasment or something, anyway very bad form here on this oracle of absoloute fact:=), and co. won't apply on principle apparently.

Oh, I almost forgot you have a chance to change fleets if you fancy longhaul at some point.

Oh, and another thing nearly 2 months leave every year.

Oh people will say hello and call you by your name and smile at you too.

Oh if only I could work for easyJet mmm, do I smell a big dripping pile of ....roast?

Major C. Saville.

Anyone else dreading the day where we have to sit up front with this character?

He is certainly a bitter little man!

Really Annoyed
 

You are really annoyed aren't you?

Why did I take a gamble and lose? Your argument doesn't stack up.

The reason you're really annoyed is because you know there is a real chain of your worst fears being realised. DEC's.

You work for a business, not a charity. If it makes good financial sense to employ well qualified, professionals (who aren't quite as annoyed as you are), your paymasters will do just that.

Deal with it.

As for my gamble: gained a Command, been promoted, would like to utilise it in UK or somewhere in Western Europe. That's all. No more. You made this personal by your puerile desire to protect your hallowed ground. Grow up.