you see al446,

this is what i find laughable..

i have posted several times various data pertaining to the specific issues that relate to the degradation of T&C's within the industry.

The result of this has not been any informed debate or discussion toward how these affect T&C's nor methods in which they could be addressed, instead it has been responded to by derision and ultimately 'table thumping' over BALPA being the saviour of the industry.

Any post that supports BALPA membership is met by you, being pro union, with applause and support, yet there is no discussion toward the actual issues that affect rising costs of aircraft operation, the continual demand for lower prices and the affect this has toward lower T&C's in the overall view.

Therefore, it can only be concluded by reasonable deduction that there is no interest in working toward a more stable and profitable industry, which will result in better T&C's, only that union membership is the only way in which the industry can be 'saved' and what campaign or issues the union puts forward, the timing or manner is irrelevant.

Bruce Wayne
 

This is preceded by

As you appear to be singing the same songs as those mentioned you fall into that camp. You have stated your opposition to BALPA but without stating good reason, in fact in another thread you actually posted to me an admission of confusion, if I am wrong I apologise but I'll search for it., so, other than your less than lucid and assumptive post #661, could you please state it. If you wish to put your reasoned views forward I may reassess my view of you. The other two remain beyond the pale.

My comment on disdain was a generalisation of those whose dogmatic views prevent progress in this discussion. It was not aimed at you but, as with anyone reading, if the cap fits....

1st sentence, quite correct and I totally agree, that is why the manouvre of sticking your head in the sand and hoping things will get better will not work. Management is more likely to take advantage by pulling your pants down and shafting you, hence my stance on collective action.

It is up to that collective, in this case BALPA is the only show in town, as to what that action will be and how much support it will be given. Do you think BALPA is some kind of Marxist conspiracy, N. Tebbit used to head them FFS. Do you have any idea what a union is about? If you are a member you are it. As far as I am aware the promise of better T&Cs was not on offer but I write in ignorance, if that was part of an official release it should not have been issued, The only thing that can be promised is to fight to prevent degradation of T&Cs and, in better times, to negotiate a fair deal for all. If it were me I would also be looking at demanding that recruitment be increased to prevent the erosion of permanent FD numbers. But that would be up to the members of the bargaining unit. That may have a positive effect on BRK contractors.
Oh, and members are exactly that, not 'subscribers'. It is a union (look it up) not OK magazine.

Who he?

Only dogma.

Searched for the worst T&C's thread but zilch.

I said nothing about outside EU but money tends to have no conscience wherever it is. As for your last sentence, you either have more faith than a school of cardinals or are naive beyond my understanding.

Can't say much about op costs as I dont have inside knowledge but pax dont demand anything, RYR offer the prices and Joe & Joan Average have gone for them but the business model is in MOL's hands. As far as I am aware no deputation of citizens or angry mob turned up at STN with placards demanding lower prices nor did Mr & Mrs Average send anyone round to my door with a petition. I think you may have this one skewed slightly. They can be offered because your T&Cs will pay for them.

And MOL would pass on the benefits to you would he? Get real. Aside from that I would make 2 points, all airlines operate under the same conditions so the price of fuel has nothing to do with relative advantage or T&Cs and further, you underline why air travel is so competitive in that it is one of the few industries that operate free of fuel taxation. But I'll take it on board and drop Gordie a letter about it. Dont hold your breath.

Splendid example of an oxymoron.

Toodle pip.

al446

thank you for the post, you seem to have missed the points by a country mile yet again..

let me reiterate..

"The result of this has not been any informed debate or discussion toward how these affect T&C's nor methods in which they could be addressed, instead it has been responded to by derision and ultimately 'table thumping' over BALPA being the saviour of the industry."

"Therefore, it can only be concluded by reasonable deduction that there is no interest in working toward a more stable and profitable industry, which will result in better T&C's, only that union membership is the only way in which the industry can be 'saved' and what campaign or issues the union puts forward, the timing or manner is irrelevant. "

i would have been inclined to discuss some of it with you by PM, however, by past evidence, you do not keep private PM's private.

I would have therefore offered if you pm me, in order that an unsolicited pm be considered as intimidating, i would provide you with my direct contact number in order to discuss, hell you can even withhold your number too.. however, by past evidence, again you do not keep private communications private.

The point is my dear al446, harping on about BALPA being the saviour of all aviation humanity is pointless. they have missed the boat several times on several key points within the industry which can only be interpreted as incompetent or dis-interest.

As I have said many times now, unless there is an understanding of the issues that affect the industry and how to improve the potential for airlines to become more profitable and secure in their existence, barking for better T&C's will not happen.

Continual demands for better T&C's without addressing the actual needs of the industry as a whole picture, not just a myopic view of one section of it is akin to bailing out lake windermere with a bucket.

it's on the thread listing page.. within a couple of threads of this one...

here's a guiding hand for you....
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...tly-offer.html

Do you think you two could consider continuing this discussion by PM, as it is becoming a teensy -weensy bit tedious. . . . . " he said, she said etc etc " :rolleyes:

isn't it just !

BALPA sure helped poor old Zippy Monster out :) http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...g-pool-33.html

This is pretty dire folks - catplaystation has got it in one. Bruce Wayne, your arguments are at best convoluted - I simply cannot understand what your point is. Your re-iterations are just quotes of unbelievably badly written arguments from a previous incomprehensible argument! I have slightly lost track of whether you and al446 are in BALPA or not or if you are for or against Ryanair. Whatever your points are, it would be most helpful if you could produce a shorter, more succinct statement of your position - I am confused.

Bruce - "isn't it just !" Thank your chosen deity for that. I'll take you up on the PM offer, maybe. Keep your eye out for them.

NSF - For the record, Bruce is a BRK pilot and seems ill disposed towards towards BALPA's recognition, I am not a pilot nor do I have any hand in aviation these days other than SLF. I just happen to dislike the spreading of distorted anti-union propaganda which is why I got into this in the first place.

Hopefully this will now be kept between us as, essentially, I think we are actually arguing the same the same case but from different starting points.

Without trying to inflame anything here I would suggest that all look at the OP then look at post #12, there is a link to the REMA site.

Norma, (correction to 'Norman' due to typographical error)

If you cannot understand what my point it and want a short statement of my position, open your eyes its been posted....

Thank you so much for your post. It neatly sums up your position in a few short lines, Norma, you have shown your hand...

So, it doesn't come down to addressing ways in which T&C's can be improved within the industry!

It comes down to providing "Jack-Off Material" for your personal views toward FR.

This *is* the point.

What I have been driving toward is a discussion addressing the issues that affect T&C's in the industry and their causes and how best these be tackled, not providing you with material to nurse your erection for whatever your personal hate d'jour is.

Do I detect a slightly "penile/masturbation reference" tendency creeping into the responses by "Bruce?",combined with distortion of names (Norma) it smacks of a style beloved by another of our brethern in his postings here. Could we be talking the same chap behind the mask ? :hmm:

captplaystation, indeed a metaphor.

point taken in regard of Norma / Norman.. a typo that spell check did not pick up due to the omission of the final 'n' resulting in a likewise correct spelling.

it has been duly corrected.

Thread is degenerating into a schoolyard slanging-match.


I have no dog in the fight, other than having used RYR for my only trip outwith the UK to date (guess paxing BOAC and BEA in the mid 60's doesn't count :O )

The cake is only so big, you all know that the intellect of pax is directly proportional to the "fare" they pay, MOL has harnessed this mindset to RYR's advantage,- flog cheap seats and stitch them up on the extras :)

The total cost , financially, is still acceptable to very many and makes a foreign bolthole a reality for many...BUT... MOL has to continue selling his "bargain deals" otherwise you all lose your jobs!

Remember Freddy Laker?.....he tried to upset the gravy-train and was scuppered,- MOL is more aware, more aggresive and bigger than Freddy.

Yes, he's a tough sod and chooses to pump his "surplus" profits into Company Growth.- I don't wver see a monopoly position for him, but i do see a real force in commercial aviation.

Airline piloting is no longer an elite, mysterious, closed-shop profession.

Maybe waste your efforts telling all the "wannabe's "that it's a crap, poorly -paid job and you'd love to get out but are totally unsuited to any other commercial role....ETC.ETC. -create a shortage and the T/C will, short-term, improve....but then the fares will appear too dear and bums on seats will reduce, thereby reducing revenue.......... err - aint that what's happening now?

So, As i posted previously, form a consortium, buy shares in RYR and take a real hand in your own future.


Or do too many dreamers want the penny AND the Toffee?

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

remember, Sewage -workers are well-paid, but there's not a huge queue wanting to shovel !!!! for a living......but there are loads of people wanting to fly tin tubes for ever increasing wedges of cash !

Welcome to recessionary, 21'st Century business economics.

I have to say that I had been thinking exactly the same only a few days ago. :}

Batmans Alta-ego which we know as Bruce Wayne aka Leo's Alta-ego. A username says quite a bit about you does it not? Somebody was just trying to be a little to cool for school with that username. :cool:

It was only a matter of time until the mask slipped and LEO was found out as he provided the proof that materialised in front of people’s eyes. The same old masturbation reference’s coming into play with the language and posts being constructed in a similar manner just without the extremities of language and fonts being utilised. oopps! ;)

You really are quite a sad and disturbed individual and I ask does your AME do a proper full psychological appraisal on you when undertaking your Class 1?

Just in case somebody goes on the defensive and the post goes missing which is another of Leo's tactics here we are:

Here is the permalink on post 677 and please feel free to read Bruces post 679.

Do you get extra block time payment in your cheque at the end of the month for your excellent contributions to these forums? I hope you’re logging duty time at the company behest! :E

Better luck next time Bruce err sorry I meant Leo!

Is your AME aware of your paranoia?

Do you check your closet each night to make sure there's not a hairy camel named Leo hiding in it ?

Brilliant, thanks for the laugh.

you were being humourous yes, Or maybe you actually believe that.

Below is a copy of unsolicited correspondence from user Bruce Wayne. I can't be bothered to get into a dialogue with this individual, who's modus operandi is to muddy the waters. I post it on here otherwise his effort will go to waste.

Barden,

Congratulations, you manage to sum up your churlish capacity in a few single lines.

Was diddums scared or intimidated by getting a PM?

Or is it that you prefer that people not speak to you until you have addressed them first, like some turn of the century officer sipping a gin and tonic on veranda while the natives toil on all that is your domain?

Your CRM must be a delight to behold !

Private messages are just private messages, if you choose not to read then hit delete, and fair enough.

I extended the courtesy to you to take time and effort to address you personally, with no malice, no lack of respect that you seem to afford others that do subscribe to your militant views.

I have had PM conversations with many people on this forum, this thread and other threads, all of them bar yourself have engaged in dialogue on a mature informative and adult level, where our different perspectives can be considered and appreciated.

To each and every one of them, I take my hat off, they are interested in seeing progress in this industry and explore and consider ways to achieve this.

*plonk*

Thank you for posting that Barden, perhaps all will understand that unsolicited PMs are fair game for posting. I was going to get into an exchange of PMs with this individual but have just noticed more urgent matters come to light eg garden furniture needs rearranging, attic could do with a bit of a dusting and the cat needs a walk.

Perhaps another correspondent in a PM could explain to him, on an adult and mature level, what the primary function of a union is ie to protect members' T&Cs rather than fix the whole aviation world to suit MOL.

The chilish (sic) and diddums comments certainly demonstrate the family traits shared with LHC, if not one and same.

Oh well al446,

I had actually attributed you to perhaps having the maturity and intellect to engage in informed, constructive discussion concerning an issue that we both have a degree of interest in.

Never mind. Glad to have known before hand that it would have been a waste of time and effort.

Cheers.

*plonk*

Once more so that all understand -

the primary function of a union is to protect members' T&Cs rather than fix the whole aviation world to suit MOL.

Unless that is understood any exchange would be pointless.

And we can all go round in circles here because BALPA patently does not do that UNIVERSALLY.

If it suits their agenda you will be sacrificed.

As long as they do it in UK you should be OK. All those contented chaps at EZY seem to think so.:ok:

al446

zippy doesn't seem to be contented, see earlier post: or does he not count as a lowly FO ?

As far as I can see he was not a 'lowly FO', he was given a temporary contract after CTC. As we are not privvy to the wording of his contract nobody can comment on it.

Zippy's words:

No mention of temporary, probationary perhaps, but not temporary, and his experience of BALPA support does not in any way validate your statement.

On the evidence in front of us we can comment and deduce that support is not universal.

Barden,
Bit of a cheap shot methinks.
Perhaps the problem here between so many of us, and I include al446 , slim et al in this, is not that we don't agree things should be better (of course they bloody should ! ! :ugh: otherwise why did you choose this profession ?) but rather , whether now is the time /Ryanair the place/ the current workforce a suitable army . . . to achieve any worthwhile gains.
I have to say, the answer, much as it pains me to admit it, is probably NO.
Globally we are in a crap situation, and when we weren't what did we achieve ? Diddly Squat, in fact a loss of real world earnings of the order of 40% in 10 yrs. . . Yep, bloody impressive, so we are so bloody good at taking care of our T's &Cs that we shoud pick a fight now ? :eek:
The time to invite BALPA/IALPA on board was when the market was bouyant and we had every possibility to walk out the door and find another job without having 10 keen bods baying at the door to replace us.
The current terminally defunct campaign was too little too late by BALPA, I.E. us, yep you and me folks, and wisely they pulled the plug on it thereby not screwing themselves (and us ) for the next 3 years.
About 2 years ago IALPA I M P L O R E D BALPA to go for recognition.
The TOSSER in charge at that time said NO , we have to employ a full time rep before we do that.
A valuable opportunity was lost courtesy of that ****, who fortunately, is no longer in charge of BLAPA ( Leo ;) ) so we have ended up fighting with one hand tied behind our back, never a clever idea.

That gentlemen, is the story, so stop bickering, do your job, keep your head down and await the next "realistic" opportunity to change things. And, Slim & Leo, I know you too would benefit from better times being negotiated, so stop attacking the desire to achieve it,your quite correct cautions that now is quite obviously not the time to do so are well understood by those of us with some sense of reality , believe me.
On that note, can we stop the infighting, I think finally we all want the same, to be treated /rewarded a little better, but not at the expense of keeping our jobs by overmilking/p1ss1ng off the cow at the wrong moment.
Well, that is how, one bottle of really excellent Spanish wine costing a mere 2e (don't just live in GRO for the sun . . . . too much at the moment Phew :uhoh: ) I see it, finally I think we overcomplicate the simple, with egotistical and entrenched viewpoints. :=

Many posters on this thread share the same, distinctive writing style. They also seem to share a propensity of hostility towards BALPA in varying degrees of obviousness. The tactic is an old one. The market trader (Del Boy/Leo/Bruce, if he's feeling nasty) leads the charge and the Rodneys (Play Station & Slim Shandy) lurk in the background to mutter things like "he's right you know" and "what a jolly nice fellow" in relation to the Haw Haw figure. Additionally an old duffer no doubt pops up at some point to complain about BALPA's handling of Laker/Air Europe or some other failed airline. This is known as an Uncle Albert. All of this points to an Only Fools and Horses attack on dear old BALPA, which unlike the opposition, choses to play with a straight bat and a stiff upper lip. This isn't necessarily the most attacking option, but is the only honourable path.

One would never expect FR to turn into BA, but it would be wholly appropiate if it blossomed to a Southwest Airlines.

where do you come in then Barden?

The harmless, pleasant but terminally dim Trigger?

It's Shady, not Shandy, Trigger ;)

In vino veritas, Playstation.

Well put Barden, That was a succinct, eloquent and accurate appraisal of any FR thread. Stand by for a torrent of silly remarks and churlish rebuttals. I hope you will interpret them as a verbal lashing out of some unpleasant little creature whose hide you have disturbed and which has found itself exposed.
Kudos.

The Flight Attendant

A man was sitting in the bar in departures at Manchester airport
waiting for his flight to Italy . A beautiful woman walks in and sits
down at the table next to him. So he decides, because she's got a
uniform on, she's probably an off-duty flight attendant. So he decides
to have a go at picking her up by identifying the airline she flies
for, thereby impressing her greatly.

He leans across to her and says the Delta Airlines motto:
"We love to fly and it shows".

The woman looks at him blankly. He sits back and thinks up another
line. He leans forward again and delivers the Air France motto:
"Winning the hearts of the world".

Again she just stares at him with a slightly puzzled look on her face.
Undeterred, he tries again, this time saying the Malaysian Airlines
motto:
"Going beyond expectations".

The woman looks at him sternly and says:
"What the :mad: do you want ?”

"Ah !" he says, sitting back with a smile on his face........"Ryanair!”

Same joke... different airline:E.

Captplaystation,

A very apt perspective, there's not many that could disagree with that statement of sanity.

:D

Indeed Bruce! Unless you knew the "Warrior" that was "Violently Happy".......... Had me choking on my Alioli!!! :confused:

Empty vessels really do make the most noise!!!

Wingco,
Long time no hear, and I thought we parted friends on a dull grey BVA apron ? :confused:
Well, I tried to help the "good guys", but all said & done there weren't enough of them among us & too many self interests involved with the majority.
So, dear Wingco, as discussed, I "retired" from that effort somewhat demoralised by the desire (or rather lack of ) of my fellow cohorts to change their future for the better.
It seems in my absence it has gone even more to a crock of sh1t.
Well, at least now it doesn't really affect me, still find it sad when I reflect on how good, with so little change /expenditure from the other side, it could be.
Anyway, glad to hear you still have an opinion, it's been a while. . . . .

Hehe! Friends indeed! I'm not one to harbour a grudge after having the opportunity to "deal" with issues head on. Nevertheless if you read through my eyes, some of the things you have written, then you must understand my amusement. I wish you well Gaystation and do appreciate that you mean well regarding our plight......

Fly safe!

Captplay
 

:hmm:

I have to say I am not to impressed by captplay's thoughts. I would believe he is a "below 30 never ever worked anywhere else pilot" :cool:
I cannot understand why he picks on RYR at this moment. For God's sake look around you. 737 pilots where do you rather be? Korea, Nigeria or India. Belive me it s much better to be inside RYR looking out than the other way around.

At the moment if you have a job, fly enjoy your job and plan for the future.
If you have no job I wish you all the best in getting one.

Good luck to you all./Teddy

"Below 30 " ! ! ? I wish :D

9 other companies to be taken into consideration too.

I never ever say that taken in the context of being stuck in India /China /Korea / God forbid Lagos :eek: that Ryanair is a bad place to be.
No night flights, home every night if you have achieved your desired base, shiny new aircraft.
All I say, if you read carefully, is that it is just a damn shame that the confrontational style adopted by management, coupled with a desire to rob their employees every time something is "renegotiated" take the edge off it a little.
With very little extra expenditure, and merely a change in attitude, it could & should be so much better (easily the best job around if that were the case ). Even the most rabid supporters will normally agree with that.

Have to say after reading ALL these threads along with my own personal experience ( albeit a short one so far ) there is little wrong with both sides of the present arguement, what is screwing up the industry is the middle/upper management of all these companies who really are shafting staff and seem in MANY cases ( not all ) to be unable to deliver a GOOD product to the public, pay the staff appropriately and return an acceptable profit!!!! Surely a bit of moderation on all sides and some recognition of the hard work supplied by all involved in the industry would see a better/safer environment for all. My thoughts on FR? I used to believe they were sensational, MOL is now pushing the model beyond what is necessary and turning it into a farce. No respect from the public and obviously from a large internal %.
I agree that those who currently have an income and are getting hours should be thankful and I also agree that they should not lose sight of the fact that the job profile is rapidly becoming fairly cr@p! YES some of you have this amazing 5/4 roster ( the BEST in aviation history YAWN!!!) and SOME of you are getting great pay but lets face it, MANY are not and looking at the trends is is certainly not improving. I respect all who work in the airlines, I have worked on the ramp, check-in, boarding and the flight deck and so far all these positions have been poorly paid considering the hard work/hours that are required. A bit more respect and recognition from management in their ivory towers would see an increase in pay and an increase in loyalty which in turn will give more experienced staff and a better product to the public.
In short, quit screwing the staff, deliver a good product, INCREASE air fares to what is a NORMAL price ( not a return to the good old days ) so that the airlines can function and pay staff and lets all get on with it! There MUST be a middle ground out there somewhere which can be aimed for surely????

Good plan powdermonkey: this is what IATA has to say about LFs and revenues:

Taking capacity out of the market is not leading to an increase in revenues: it is reducing DOCs but little else as the Indirects still have to be covered.

A better solution is to collectively look at ways of reducing costs, increasing productivity and minimising waste, be that waste lost bags, discarded meals, excess fuel carriage, hammering the brakes etc.

The issue at the moment is not "making a profit" it is "not making a loss": we have seen several names disappear in the last 18 months and there will be more to come. The once great BA is in dire straits and has no legacy right to survival and BALPA will not and cannot provide a barrier or protection against market forces.