Chesty Morgan

I didn't realize Flybe had flying doctors, hope your diagnosis is right, at least for the patient’s sake. Do you have a plan for someone with an asthma attack?


I forgot how much fun pprune can be...........

Yes, that's what they pay me for. But if your after more medical advice try the medical forum.

On time never comes before safety. If safety is not first then your responsibility kicks in. If you get comments from management (which is unlike), tell them how it is. If they don't listen, put in an ASR this comes to the CAA who will definately take action on this. It's English license not Ireland like Ryan, who owns Irish CAA. Don't be afraid of management according to safety, but use some common sense too off course.
:=

I'm curious,

Just what do the quacks put in a first aid kit for epileptic seizures and asthma attacks? Clearly all the proper airlines are flying hospitals making a neat little sideline from carrying fare paying pax.

:rolleyes:

Has anyone who has applied for DEC on the Q400 received any
interview dates.
I applied yonks ago and still no reply from Flybe,
are they snowed under with applications??

Until FlyBe's MD leaves I would steer well clear of this exceedingly dodgy outfit.

Engineering practices are outdated and paperwork heavy, as are the rest of the company paperwork trails.

As for the MD's attitude, well, there is a reason +150 pilots are working or are about to work notice.

FlyBe: Feels Like You're Being Exploited

BS

BugSpeed, any chance of an elaboration on your above statement? It seems a bit extreme.

sr

know the feeling bugspeed see you at the dooo

Bugspeed,
thats an exceedingly childish comment regarding us being a dodgy outfit, and it's certainly not fair to some excellent engineering folk and flight crew at Flybe. Suggest you wind your neck in if you are comparing Bacon to Flybe, as the evidence of the poor way Bacon has been run after merging two profitable companies and turning them into one cash drain hardly reflects well on the management or the t's and c's of the crews. The very good reason that 150 plus pilots are leaving is due to not getting the ridiculously generous terms and conditions the crews were on at Bacon. I'd love to have those same t's and c's but would prefer my job on a new a/c, reasonable salary and reasonable lifestyle. If it's not for you then Foxtrot Oscar somehere else!:ugh: Which is what our MD said but much more politely!
There are some ex Bacon pilots who will never accept the new terms and conditions and have or are moving on, best of luck to them, but don't try and right off our company because of it.
Have a good look at Flybe and see the turnaround made in the last few years by the engineers and flight crew (with a little help from the MD and management). The fact we have come from debt to a large profit and then swallowed up BA Connect should speak for itself but sadly there are always some who choose not to listen.

So Bugspeed , if you are one of the new crew at Flybe, I suggest you put some time in with the new company before slagging it off, of course it is not what you are used to but then again that company went down the pan!

MVE, some of your reply is quite appropriate, but doesn't explain why over a third of the 150 leaving are "old Flybe" pilots.

Also, I think you are being a little simplistic in putting the number of ex Cons leaving down to t&c issues, for many it is just as much a question of base, opportunity to fly jets or simply pay. Jimbos letter invited us to FIFO, so don't get upset that so many are choosing to do the latter.

Personnally, I don't see much antagonism in the crew room, and ultimatey, those that have a reason to stay will, and those that have a better reason to go will go. C'est la vie.

What I'm more concerned about at the moment is the number of Q400s that seem to live on the ramp rather than in the air. For a lo-co, such poor utilisation is surely not good...:sad:

oap

With all the emotion here, it's easy to miss the salient facts.

Most BA Connect pilots are moving on because they have found a better offer elsewhere, as has evidently quite a few Flybe pilots. Is that so hard to understand? Those of us in Bristol were pushed into it by having the rug pulled from under our feet, but it's still the same principal - you look at your options & hopefully pick the best.

My option with Flybe was to relocate my family and move from a jet to a turboprop. My alternative was to stay put and fly for easyJet. Simple decision, nothing to do with company management, engineering, T&Cs, rostering agreements or even money.

oapilot, red snake, I take all your points and my comments regarding most/all leaving due to the T's and C's was far too simplistic.
However my response was to the general rubbishing comment made by Bugspeed, clearly from someone who hasn't been around Flybe for long or they would realise the gross insult he/she is paying us.
As to some not wanting to leave because of being moved to the q400, all I can say is try flying it first. Would it really be a step down from flying the 145, really? If it was coupled with a possible base move/family move, I could understand the reluctance.
If your ultimate aim is to move to the likes of Monarch or Easy etc, it's a great first aircraft and for a lot of us it will be a great last aircraft!
Flybe has long been a feeder airline and they make no apoligies for it, but it's due to the great experience that you get here that makes it so easy to move on.
It's not all good and the way the Bristol closure was handled shows the other side of Flybe management and you all have my sympathies but I suspect if Bacon management had been as willing to be so brutal things may have been different.
Flybe is by no means perfect but overall it's not bad!:ok:

No MVE,

Take your head out of your backside.

Much of which bugspeed says has value, just learnt to pick the wheat from the chaff.

EW

MVE when you say swallow up lets remember that BA pumped hundred million into Flybe so they could digest BACON.

yes true, £100M to cover the losses running the outdated BAcon equipment and for the transitional costs not for anything else!

Ok lets talk some specifics. After some time now of Flybe crews flying over the Alps in the Q400 to MXP, why did it take an ex Bacon Q400 crew to refuse? Because no published drift down (not far to drift down anyway from FL250 to 18,200') and no drop down masks in the cabin (no option of immediate descent to FL100 unless you want to be buried at Mont Blanc). Why does it take Bacon experience to work out such obvious factors? Who wants to cross the Alps at 25000' or less (depending on local qnh) anyway - nobody in their right mind. Will be great fun dodging the CB's and TS later in the year.
Yes - afraid so. Glad I'm not around for too much longer - good luck everybody, you'll certainly need it with these cowboys. Bugspeed I'm with you.

Well, it didn't. This subject first came to light about five years ago when a flybe crew refused to set sail for Bergamo for the same reason. At the time, a procedure was worked out that satisfied the CAA and the crews (can't remember what it was, I was flying the aircraft with O2 in the cabin so didn't really care).

Of course I would have to agree that ordering the Q400 without cabin 02, steep approach mod etc was a bit short-sighted, but there you go...

bugspeed, Who are you?? What an Arse...Your not Ex Ba by any chance...get your head out your arse.

Flybe is actually a very sound company. Engineering is actually one of flybe strong points.

Wacky,
A totally unfair post, there are plenty of experienced crews at flybe.

As remoak says, when the Q400 first started operating to Bergamo a route across the Alps was worked out which was perfectly safe and avoided Mont Blanc,and was used for all Q400 ops into Northen Italy. This was done by the previous fleet manager (who was an extremely experienced ex RAF pilot) with a little help from his training department, and agreed by the then FOI who was another extremely experienced ex RAF pilot among other things. Last time I looked the briefing for this was still included in the ops manual (part C) and the drift down information was available in the ops manual (part B).

Unfortunately, the current fleet manager (who it should be noted is ex bacon), and the current FOI (who is ex Brymon but I think he left before bacon happened) have now decreed that it is safe to route over the top of Mont Blanc. Plenty of Flybe crews are aware of this problem, and are also aware of the drift down capabilities of the Q400 as they have been flying it for a long time. Perhaps it is their experience in operating the aircraft over the Alps which allows them to do so, as they are aware that if you are over the top of Mont Blanc you cover a sufficient distance during the drift down to be clear of the significant high ground, and with knowledge of the previously published information you can make a safe decision, based on weather and wind speed/direction, as to whether you continue in the direction you were going or turn back North or South.

If the information is no longer included in the manuals then that is almost certainly due to the current fleet manager, who as we all know is ex Bacon, having been slotted into the job above several highly experienced Flybe pilots who applied for the post internally and weren't even considered in the final selection (and I wasn't one of them, by the way).

The other thing to remember in the Q400 v E145 over the Alps debate is that if you are operating into Milan, Bergamo, Turin or any of the other destinations in Northern Italy that flybe operate to you are going to be either climbing or descending over the mountains anyway, so for a lot of the time you will be avoiding weather in any aircraft.

Remoak - as an aside the drop down oxygen only increases the aircraft max operating altitude to 27,000 ft, as a result of which no operators ordered it and I was informed (but could be wrong) that Bombardier withdrew it as an option. The steep approach mod would really only be required for LCY operations which flybe decided not to continue, hence only a few aircraft were delivered to flybe with it fitted, and if you see one it will be placarded as inoperative (or used to be).

excrab

I'm sure that you are right, but I think it would be sensible, if flying routes that require a terrain clearance profile rather than a simple emergency descent, to have the rubber jungle (if only for the peace of mind of the pax).

As far as the steep approach mod is concerned,, sure, you don't need it at the moment, but ten to one that flybe decide next week that LCY is the centre of the known universe (as it was a few years ago), and deeply regret not having all the aircraft modded... they certainly did last time!

Excellent post, by the way. You are absolutely correct in what you say. It seems that the BACON management types have caused all sorts of problems in the recent past - I gather that Crewing and Rostering are a lot less flexible than they used to be, owing to ex-BACON managers that simply cannot think outside the square.

Wacky and bugspeed, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. Nobody will miss you.

remoak,
Your final line, couldn't have put it better myself!!!:D

So if you knew about this 5 years ago (that limits you to top 10% of Flybe) then how come Flybe crews have been flying the Q400 to MXP on a regular basis the last 6 weeks with no drift down info and no "escape routes"? They must have been all the ex Bacon crews that joined Flybe earlier, according to you. Sorry to break your bubble but that was not the case. Glad that some people recognise the issues, but why did it take a new Q400 crew ex Bacon to put an end to what has been happening the last 6 weeks?
As for jet profiles, normally never lower than FL300 at Mont Blanc. Though FL 250 is our lowest level (as opposed to your highest).
The only thing I would agree is that your fleet management (ex Brymon and BACX) has probably let you down big time. Lets face it what does an ex Hercules flight engineer know about oxygen requirements for passenger flying and drift down requirements?
I'm sure the passengers wouldn't be overjoyed either.

Since British Airways own a very sizeable chunk of Flybe, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon!

So it looks logical to me! :rolleyes:

Just to back up excrab's comments, the routing for the BGY sector in 2003/2004 took us at least 70nm to the East of Mont Blanc, and Drift Down/Pressurisation Failure procedures were fully covered by our previous Fleet Manager following questions raised by pilots operating the route.

With regard to the rubber jungle, in an email to me GD stated : "Drop down O2-a non-starter. It is heavy and expensive and only gives you FL270."

Yes, that tends to be the thing with safety. It's expensive!

I guess now we can see why (some) tickets on Flybe appear cheap!

Wait til MOL finds out you can fly aircraft without oxygen for the passengers! (I assume it is available for the crew?:} )

Amazing!

Wacky, Being an EX! Herc Eng means he has plenty of multi crew, low level, tactical and high level route flying experience, oh and plenty of experience of flying a pressurised non-pax oxygen aircraft around over the alps!:ugh: As one of your sympathisers said earlier to me, take your head out of your a*se!

Wacky,

I'm very suprised that the fleet manager knows nothing about oxygen requirements and drift down for pax flying - after all he started as an F/O on the dash for Brymon (a part of Bacon), so would he not have been taught it there and then have been able to bring the benefit of his vast experience to flybe, as you have?

In your huge experience of flying over the alps in whatever it is that you fly for them how often have you looked at a topographical chart of the mountains - if you had studied it to see what was underneath you, you would be aware that you only have to be 20 miles past Mont Blanc on track to be able to descend to FL140, which is the JAR requirement for aircraft operating without drop down oxygen (and before you start I am well aware of the increments for wind speed over mountainous terrain). The drift down covers approximately 60 miles if I remember rightly, and if you depart the UK at max weight the dash will stabilise at approx 18000ft by the time it gets to the Alps. Drift down therefore was never a real problem, it was the oxygen requirements which were limiting.

It would appear that this whole discussion you have started is some attempt to prove that Bacon crews are more experienced than flybe crews, if that is the case then as has been said before you spout rubbish. When I left flybe I joined my current emloyer at the same time as an ex Bacon captain who had less total hours than I did and less time on the type he had been flying than I had on the dash 8. That didn't mean that either of us was any better than the other (we subsequently got commands after the same amount of time having jumped through the same hoops), but proves the point that you will find some Bacon pilots have more experience than some flybe pilots, and some flybe pilots have more experience than some Bacon pilots. Live with it.

As to the drift down and briefing for operation over high terrain which included all the things which have been mentioned in these last few posts they were certainly in the ops manuals when I looked last - although that was 12 months ago before I left. If they are no longer there then that is, as I said, down to either the fleet manager or ops director, neither of whom were home grown by flybe.

4468 - MOL may not know that you don't need oxygen for the pax, but his crews probably do. The 737 is allowed to despatch with the drop down oxygen inoperative provided that you have enough available for 10% of the pax, limit the max operating altitude to FL250 and can descend to FL140 within 3 minutes - exactly the same rules to which the dash operates. I'm very suprised if other jet types with UK certification don't have something similar (it is a long time since I have flown any others so can't remember off hand).

All well and good planning meticulous escape routes for the Q400.

Having spent a good deal of uncomfortable time bashing through the Alps, despite rather than with the help of Italian ATC, this is a recipe for disaster.

Direct routings and WX avoidance will result in AC being off route when shyte happens and, by virtue of it 25K ceiling the Q400 is going to be going all over the shop to avoid crashing through some of the nastiest CBs around.

Didnt Emerald have an interesting experience a few years ago with a turboprop that strayed over Mount Blanc? New trousers all round after a hard GPWS.

Sorry, this is lunacy.

Travelled as a pax in the back of a Herc once. Not a pleasant experience. Pushed in, ignored throughout flight by gobby loadies, temperature freezing, noisy, no food/drink available, no chance of sleeping, shoved out the other end, bag went missing.

As a thankfully infrequent passenger with Flybe I can now see where the passenger handling procedures were developed from. :(

Cattle Class - thread drift; Go to the SLF forum.

sr

And did you hear about the 145 crew that was ordered by OPS to position a 145 from MAN to EXT VFR for one off maintenance action. Capt politely declined the offer, but was told to get on with it by Ops. Fortunately, the Flight Ops Director agreed with the Captain and it didn’t happen. Would have been interesting though, trying to navigate round all the zones / VRP’s trying to maintain ground contact and 5k vis with nothing more than an airways chart. Wonder if BA would have appreciated all the complaints being directed to them. 145 in BA colours.

BTW, the new Herc J’s cruise at up to FL 340.

BTW, the new Herc J’s cruise at up to FL 340.

Yeah, at about Mach 0.5 where they're an embarrassment with the jet traffic doing M0.8+!