BA or Virgin? Which is better?
 

Dear All,

A friend of mine, you know, the guy with the venereal disease and erectile dysfunction who was asking for advice on getting out of a speeding ticket the other day, anyway he has been a lucky bugger and is swimming in the pools of both Virgin Atlantic and British Airways. :D Now I know there is a fairly long waiting time, particularly in the former but having never dared hope that this might occur he needs some help in comparing the two and making a lifetime career choice. I also hear he isn’t the only one with a leg in both camps, seems that a few guys will have this choice to make… :cool:

Anyway, he’s only late twenties but having been on the A320 for a few years and with a supportive other half he really fancies long haul now, which BA aren’t offering for at least 5 years. He also fancies buggering off to la belle France so that he doesn’t have to keep giving :mad: Gordon :mad: lots of money every month… so Virgin looks really attractive right now, not considering the famed ‘party atmosphere’ and the draw of heavy iron. Seems like an easy choice in the short term. :p

That said, having never flown long haul before at least BA would offer the option to change back to short haul later if he doesn’t enjoy it or has a family and while the money is the same initially isn’t BA’s final salary is about £25K better than Virgins? But then doesn’t Virgin offer a quicker command and the increasing job security provided by continuing expansion? Quote “twice its current size in 10 years, by 10% a year expansion”. I suppose its more exposed to a downturn in the Atlantic from, please no :{, another 9/11 but then its expanding elsewhere around the globe so that should reduce. Having said that BA didn’t boot anyone after 9/11, is 10 times bigger and say they will recruit another hundred and something next April so that’s some guys who would be on the list behind him. The nasty Nigels are well known, though probably few in number, but aren’t there rumours of occasionally awkward to deal with ex-military cliques in Uncle Richard’s mob? :uhoh:

Later on when he may not be so keen to fly all the time BA apparently offers 75% and 50% rosters, does Virgin? Staff travel has to pretty good on both I guess, albeit with more freebies for other halves and mates with Virgin. Though BA’s new pension hasn’t been finally announced yet but it looks like it won’t be as good as Virgins 15% so that’s another thing to consider. Does Virgin do block reserves like BA does, which would be easier to live abroad with?

Now he’s a good mate, albeit not very bright, and it’s a life changing decision for him so what considerations would you suggest I’ve missed or misinterpreted? What about morale and perceived lifestyle in the two outfits? Is it true that BA’s long haul guys regularly do 900 hours PA whereas Virgin boys don’t, aren’t they contracted to 750 hours?

Thanks in advance… :ok:

SB

Britney,

Not quite in the same position, although hopefully will be soon.

All my thoughts and worries exactly. Sure you werent talking about me ?

SB...

It's a difficult one... however, a fortunate position to be in - some would love to have either offered! I am lucky enough to have been in his (your!) position - worked for VS, and had to make the decision (or not) to move to BA after a year or 2 - which I did. On balance, I reckon for someone joining now VS has the edge...

Specifics:
I think VS does offer part time. BA does, but very hard to get right now... Will come down to legislation, which means they'll be the same.

Well... it's 12% of ~75% of your salary, which in anybody's eyes (except BA's!) is 9%. VS I believe is 15%. If we can up the rate for new entrants in BA we will, but there are so many battles brewing in BA right now, I cannot forecast a likely outcome.

VS were contracted, when I was there, to 750hours (800 Airbus), and I believe the +50 Airbus cop-out was got rid of. BA work to a credited hour system, which can lead to you doing 900 actual hours. However, to achieve this, then you must be doing "efficient" trips which ensure no long stays downroute or on duty. VS do not have that protection... Probably not an issue with their route structure, and/or you are happy spending time off downroute against home.

Usually has done, but all based on dead man's shoes or expansion.

Hope that helps somewhat, but suggest:

• Take the first offer that comes - or at least first starting date
• Toss a coin
• If you take my advice (I wouldn't) go for VS...

A difficult choice, but ponder this.

BA is a real airline, Virgin is a brand name which happens to operate some aircraft.

BA's business is pretty stable. Virign's planned expansion seems to be a lot of hot air from it's owner with little substance to date.

BA kept all it's pilots post 9/11. Virgin sh!tcanned 40% of them at the drop of a hat.

But if your friend does have errectile problems, BA hosties will be a bit more of a challenge compared with the Virgin girls :E

Ultra long haul is great for a few years but as your mate has about 30 years to go until he retires he needs to ask himself if he wants to be doing nothing but 7hr to 15hr sectors for the rest of his career. I didn't so I had no choice but to leave. Virgin had a brief flirtation with A320s a couple of years back but got rid of them all, and I can't see them going back into short haul. At BA you have the potential for a lot more variety in your flying.

What´s galling is BA could be the best airline in the world , both for pax and staff, if only they sorted out half a dozen Directors and senior flight ops managers. Most of us there live in hope...

Ya Zi,

Virgin has been operating for 20 years this year and has a current fleet of about 30 long haul airliners with more on the way.

It is a real airline , not a "brand name operating a few aircraft".

They certainly did s***can a large number of crew after 9/11 myself included. They also offered almost everyone their positions back within 6-9 months and are currently the same size in terms of crew numbers as they were pre 9/11. Much recruiting underway presently.

Certainly,BA avoided redundancies and full marks to them, however there are no VS drivers preparing to move over to BA that I am aware of.

My advice would be, under 30- BA certainly worth considering if you want the variety and dont mind/can afford living in the SE.
Over 30 - think carefully especially if you want long haul.
Over 40 - BA not a good idea unless the retiring age increases.Still the command and pension issues to consider.

Virgin terms and conditions are much improved over a few years ago and you can fly RHS until 65 if the multiple divorces are causing financial pain.

Hi all,

With regards to working for either BA/Virgin, is it true that a good percentage of pilots live nowhere near London, ie live in other parts of the UK/Ireland, France, Spain etc..therefore don't have to live in the southeast.

Also, what I don't understand is when people mention that you can switch from BA long to shorthaul if for instance you have a family....however I thought with these 3-5 day tours around Europe that you would be away from home pretty much the same length of time anyway...so what's the difference?

just a thought

P1

Lots of BA pilots, both short and long haul, live nowhere near London. However what you gain by being away from the South East you can lose in a long drive to and from work when you're generally likely to be knackered in one or both directions. Early starts and late finishes can be a problem as you'd either be driving at an unpleasant time or the flight schedules won't tie up and you'll waste a night sitting in a cheap B&B somewhere.

You're right about short haul being away from home a lot. BALPA did a bit of research into this last year and found that both short and long haul pilots in BA spend a broadly similar amount of time away from base with a similar number of nights away from home, however short haul actually spent about 30% more time on duty than long haul. It's also worth noting that many long haul flights depart late at night and return early in the morning so even though your tired you can still do something at home on the last day of the trip. With short haul you'll leave early morning and arrive home late at night so the day's completely filled. If you want time at home then long haul is by far the way to go.

Just a few thoughts on the long haul vs short haul thing.

Its very much down to individual preferences. Some people hate long haul and can't tolerate the time swings, some people love it.

Personally I find long haul easier on my aging body than four or five consecutive early starts changing to lates then back to early etc etc. I like the lifestyle and whilst it is true that you can only play golf/get trashed in the truck so many times, I would rather be bored sitting by the pool in St Lucia, Ipod installed in lugholes and a good book to hand than be bored slogging endlessly backwards and forwards to some rainswept European airport or on airport standby with 7 hours to go.

The ability to live where you like is also a big factor. Commuting is a pain in the proverbial and expensive to boot but for me it is cheaper than a mortgage in the south and I live where I want to rather than where I have to.:cool:

In the end you do what suits you and stay with what you like.
I am far too old for BA now but enjoy Virgin and will stay until retirement, terrorism and environmentalists permitting. If I was 25 and had a choice I would have to think long and hard.

Whatever you choose, hope it works for you.

Spearing Britney

You say that it is a long time to wait in the holding pool - can anyone give any idea of how long the wait in the VS pool is?

Waiting, waiting......

Thankx

To give you an idea, I've been waiting since December. And I'm still waiting!! :{

Spearing B

Let me start by saying you lucky bugger i would kill to be in such a quandry.

BA used to be the airline i would have killed to get into but after hearing BA pilots moan more vociferously than VS and looking into the culture of both airlines then VS is now the apple of my eye.

In these hallowed pages we have also seen recently that the BA T & C's have changed dramitically downwards (especially for new DEP's) as opposed to VS's incremental movements upwards trying to match BAs.

Have also heard that more and more BA chaps are forgoing the "job for life" and moving on to Monarch Britannia etc etc. Not so long ago it was all the other way.

As for the change back to short haul dont forget that VS and BMI were in consultation not so long ago. Have heard NO rumours that its NOT going to happen infact quite the opposite.

Nothern boy is right would you rather be bored in HKG,ORD,SFO,BGI,JFK (cities and countries that if your bored in then you might as well top yourself) or as i and im sure you do 5 earlies followed by 5 lates and hanging around waiting for the phone to ring.

If offered both at the same time ask you heart and head to have a chat and go for what you think is right for you both now and in the future.

Good luck you lucky so and so.:ok:

What is the likelihood that a newhire could get staffed on the 400 vs. shorthaul Airbus? If you are a junior FO on the 400, what are the likely destinations you could bid or be awarded on reserve (primarily NY flights...)?

Will most newhires likely start on the bus?

The word from management was that unless you were already rated on the 747 or 777 you'd be going to the Airbus, but that was before they had to reopen recruitment and widen the offer (737 and 75/67 ratings now welcome).

As a junior FO on the 747 you could probably expect to get one decent trip a month to NRT,LAX,SFO,HKG,JNB,SEA,MEX as part of a blind line. The rest of your allocation will be JFK, BOS, MIA, DEL, MAA, ORD, BAH, IAD etc, mostly three day trips, plus you will work every weekend as a junior FO regardless of which fleet you're on. Bidding is really only a notional concept as a junior FO, you'll be on blind lines and be allocated your work regardless of your preferences.

If you manage to get long-haul straight away (full ATPL required), expect the 777 rather than the 400 as we're a little short of pilots at the mo. For the Triple, expect shorter East Coast (IAD, BOS, PHL, EWR, JFK, ATL) trips and the middle East (KWI, DXB, RUH, JED). We also do the mid-West (IAH, DFW, DEN), the Caribbean (TPA, MCO, KIN, BGI, ANU with shuttles), Africa (ABV, HRE, LUN occasionally) and some longer range stuff (including PEK, CCU, GRU, GIG) but you're highly unlikely to see any of those on a Blind Line.

Don't expect the 400 without a type rating, there are enough people already in BA who will bid for it.

PS: As a new hire, expect reserve (7 fixed days off, 3 weeks on call) at least once a year on any LHR fleet.

Well I can't speak for Virgin, but I can tell you it's very miserable at BA.
Years of grossly incompetent management of this government department let loose in the real world have led to the shambles it now is.
Pilots are resented by all and their lily-livered managers do little to defend them.
Eventually you are trapped, with only the pension retaining you (at least new joiners wont face that problem).

Don’t go to BA.

Why?

Well, in the past two weeks I’ve experienced:

· An hour wait for transport between terminals to operate a flight that was already 2hrs late. (we got into a engineers van, - some entire crews got London buses between terminals.)

· Cabin crew not prepared to dispatch on a domestic sector without a 5th crewmember.

· 3 Aircraft stands full of misplaced baggage.

· Cabin crew requiring '38 minutes at table' (to eat at a crew lounge) after a single 1.5hr sector, causing delays to get worse

· Tug drivers disconnecting and going home, despite being already connected to an aircraft with a pushback sequence number and passengers that are already 3 hrs late.

· Cabin crew not getting up to start their service until the TOC, on a 40 minute sector

· Dispatchers that are ‘not permitted any longer’ to print off flight plans form there computers for flight crew.

· Airside bus drivers dropping an outbound crew off at the aircraft, f’ing and blinding at me because I have asked for them to take our inbound crew back to the car park. And then driving off without us

· Finding crew buses ‘hiding’ in Terminal 1, when there are crews that have been waiting for 2 hrs for transport to or from their next trip on other stands, because the bus dispatcher radio controller is ‘not allowed to call them’

· Company radio frequencies replying to 25% of radio call for the whole of the LHR fleet

· Cabin crew that are not asked & ‘not permitted’ by the union to go into discretion (or they’ll be fined - allegedly…)

· Multiple & extensively delayed departures not having any customer service staff in attendance at the gates

· Crew control not advising dispatchers or flight crew that their flight which is waiting to board has no cabin crew to cover the flight

· The presumption that cabin crew will never go into discretion.

· Flights being retimed (read: delayed) for cabin crew needing more rest in the hotel than the flight crew

· The presumption that flight crew will ALWAYS go into discretion without referring to them

· Several times a week, being asked by cabin crew if we can ensure that our passengers who pay our mortgages, will be delayed further than they are already so they get £50,


I’ve worked in some grot holes, in & out of aviation in the past, but the sheer negativity and CANT do attitude at BA is really beyond belief.

If you think the continuity of your pay check is safe, stay where you are.
I wish I had...

Ironically the man who is responsible for all but one of spammans examples has recently been awarded an OBE for services to the airline industry. He was probably nominated by our competitiors!

Snooky, I can understand why you feel so undervalued and disliked by alot of the staff in BA. It seems that anyone who is on a higher payscale is fair game.

The short-sightedness (sp?) and unwillingness of certain employees to recognise the need to pay the "going rate" coupled with our unions (esp. BASSA) with their tabloid, lowest-common-denominator newsletters and mail shots does nothing to remedy the situation. The unions whip up a fire storm every time management bonuses are announced. A jealous eye is turned toward the flightdeck door whenever pay is discussed on board by some.

Honestly I don't know what will make us snap out of our complacent attitude that we are the best, will always be and can treat both our customers and colleagues any way we wish to.

Here's hoping the strike is averted later this month!

:rolleyes:

I agree wholeheartedly with Spam man above.

Carnage matey - "hit the nail on the head" too. How can Mike Street sleep at night when the airline provides such a dreadful level of service?

I predict that BA won't exist in its present form in five years.
Any F/O joining now needs to have his eyes wide open. he will never get a command here - since it's probable that Easyjet will dominate the LGW market and BA will slowly shrink back to be a LH operation.

Only 4 years done in BA, 30 (or 35) left to go.

There is no way in hell that I will be able to work those thirty years at the current rate. I will HAVE to go part time, otherwise it WILL kill me. The reasons have been given by many others.

I'm saying this in my mid-twenties, and I am absolutely serious.

Something not yet mentioned anywhere is the number of pilots taking Open University courses. Maybe not going to other airlines, but changing career completely.

WANABEES LISTEN CAREFULLY: go to a good university and get a good degree in something useful.

I've always wanted to be a pilot, never anything else. To have realised my life time ambition has made myself, my friends and family so proud.

To feel how I do about my job, my company and my future now truly breaks my heart. As dramatic as it sounds, I can only compare the feeling with one of betrayal.

Hi JONSV,

Surely it can't be that bad. Listen lets swap jobs for a month (I wish) and we will see who's better off. I would love to be in your shoes right now and so would many others. I suppose that by your age, with respect, that you haven't had any of the low paid, dirty, long houred , degrading jobs that I and many others out there have had. You have a great future, long haul command, well above average salary, ok you work hard and it's long hours waking up at 4:00am but if you don't want it give me the job.

Oh, and this talk that I will have to work every weekend, don't get me wrong I love my weekends, but who cares if I have to work them, I will do it gladly. Another thing is that if I join on the 777 I will have to do the east coast US such as New York, Atlanta, Orlando......poor me.....come on!!

I don't have rose tinted glasses either - I am just living in the real world.

Flying for a living is not a job - it's a way of life

Cheers!!

P1, it's your choice. You can either listen to what you're being told or ignore it, but if you choose to ignore it you'll find yourself stuck like many of us now are.
I can promise you that it will take a relatively short time for the novelty to wear off.
Put the same amount of effort into any other career and I think you''ll end up better off.
Being very badly managed in an industry where it's almost impossible to change employer once some seniority is accrued and facing endless exhaustion being worked to legal limits is no life.
Endless East coast may sound good to an outsider, but in reality it is purgatory.
What other job has at least 5 potentially career ending checks a year.
Think very hard before entering the trap!
You may be right that flying is a way of life, but it's increasingly difficult to have any other life alongside it.

P1, the important thing to bear in mind is that, at some point in the future even if not now, you will want the occasional weekend off, and you will want some guaranteed time off with your wife and kids, and you will want some indication (beyond salary) that you are a valued member of the organisation you belong to, and that your welfare is of some importance to them. It seems that, at the moment, BA is not fulfilling the expectations of many of its pilots. I don't know if that's likely to be a permanent state of affairs - in fact, I doubt it - but please respect the genuinely-held feelings of those who actually do the job you're so desperate to get into.

At the moment, the Virgin pilot group seems to be faring somewhat better than their colleagues at BA - but it wasn't always like that, and there's no reason to suppose it always will be!

You do that month in month out with very few days off, none of them at weekends, in between, your body clock will shift about 3 hours westwards and you will find yourself completely drained on your (minimum) days off. Try it. I give you six months before you feel the same way. Having said that, if enough of you join on the 777, none of us will have to work quite as hard with any luck.

Right On!! If we can get more of these suckers to join, it'll push the rest of us up the list and into a semi decent lifestyle!

You boys have obviously never / have forgotten what is like to work for a charter outfit in the summer...... long european 2 sector night flights are more tiring than the atlantic IMHO, followed by minimum days off into stupidly early flights.

Problem is EC...They are doing it 12 months a year, not 6 months during the Summer and then recovering over the Winter season. There is a strong feeling amongst certain people in the know ,that something "nasty" is going to happen, as the holes in the cheese are starting to align. Ironically, the troops seem to know, but few people with the power to change things are listening.

P1,

I hear what you're saying, but I don't really think you understand what I mean.

Your post is full of wistful wishes of a glamourous lifestyle and foreign travel. My point is; thats exactly what I thought it would be, and I was nowhere near the reality.

You said

That's wrong. It's a JOB that TAKES OVER your life.

Some of your points are exactly right, it's a good job compared to some, and well paid. But it's a job nonetheless. It's a tiring one, a thankless one, an unhealthy one, a VERY insecure one, a very stressful one and sometimes a destructive one.

I have done some crappy jobs, albeit as a student, and I have many friends who do crap jobs for £11k a year. I count myself lucky in that sense, but I do not consider myself to be lucky just because I'm a pilot.

Six years ago I was that dreamer who sat and read things like I've just written, green with envy, sick with the craving for the high life, and in complete denial that what I saw could possibly be the truth. I think a lot of people know where I'm coming from.

expedite_climb

I have done long european night flights, ones where you sit on the ground for 2 hrs before going back. I personally find going from lates with one day off then 5 pre-7am checkins in a row which total 12 sectors (4 sectors in $hite wx checking in at 0500 local, madness) and 40 duty hours considerably more tiring.

And thats all year round.

Hi JONSV,

I am sorry if I went a little too far in my last post. As a student pilot I have no inside knowledge however, as you are a chap around my age, I just thought it was a real shame that you felt this way about your career and company. I just hope I don't feel the same way in 10 years from now.

Therefore, what changes would you guys make in order for it to become a pleasure again - less hours, home more often perhaps?

I do hope your T&C's improve in the near future.

Best of luck.

P1

A lot had been said about the fact that you won't see a weekend off when joining BA. How is that situation at Virgin for newcomers?

Can they expect to be working most weekends as well, or is all of that alleviated a bit by the bidding system they have? Is one of the fleets worse for weekends than the other, or is it a pretty uniform thing?

There is no difference between the fleets. As we do not use a bidline system, it is impossible for anyone, no matter how senior, to bid for every weekend off. There are strict limits as to how many trips or days off you can bid for, and the maxima reduce if you have leave in that month. We also use a rotating bid group system, with a balance of seniority in each of three bid groups. That way, even the most junior pilot has a good chance of getting some preferred days off or trips one month in three.

With the nature of the trips flown, and the minimum time between flights, it is possible to get into an all-weekends or all-weekdays roster, as the trip cycle is approximately 6 or 7 days. Therefore tactical bidding can be used to break the cycle and get some weekends off.

The system works pretty well (though we've been having some trouble getting A340 rosters out on time recently - hopefully now sorted), and you don't hear too many complaints on the line.

Thanks a lot Scroggs (as always a very informative response). Cheers.

Scroggs,

The rumour is that virgin are still significantly under-crewed and there is a problem brewing when new routes start. How many trips/hours are you flying per month? Are virgin still recruiting for both fleets or just the Airbus?

TBE.

Sick;

"GSS's 744 F/Os are screaming to escape their abuse and exit to Virgin"

Perhaps on a new thread you could expand on that statement?

Interested to hear..............

Or maybe the rumour that certain BA types seconded to GSS will do their 500 hrs P1 before sliding over to CAL, Emirates, etc

Has the Virgin pay offer lived up to expectations, or has it fallen short of the figures given when Virgin pilots voted for it?

Sick...I wouldn't be surprised if they took DEP's straight on the -400. Rumour has it that BA are having problems getting the quality it wants (on the cheap, of course) I can see that they would have to offer some incentive to join. IMHO, you don't really want to start flying in BA in shorthaul at the age of 38 or so. The earlies will kill you.

Virgin has recruited for the 744 this year, but there aren't likely to be many courses required over the next couple of years unless the company forces people to move from the 744 to the 340 - which is bound to happen as commands come up. So, there will be some need for new 744 drivers but not a great deal. That said, the supply of rated Airbus pilots is not endless and, as was the case when I joined, it's more than likely that the company will retrain people they like.

As for the pay deal, wreckless, it has fully lived up to its promises. And I'm still contracted to only 750 hours a year.