Thought I'd refresh this thread to see what are your current opinions?

At Virgin not much has changed - though we have probably 170 more pilots than we did when this thread started, and we are continuing to recruit. 7 A346s are due to arrive this year (though we will lose 4 A343s), and another bunch (with no losses) next year. The A380 is still on the horizon (though delivery now looks likely to slip to 2009 thanks to problems at Airbus), and there are the beginnings of the process of replacing (or augmenting or extending the life of) the B744 fleet. New routes are steadily being introduced (Dubai and Jamaica plus extra New York (July) and Hong Kong (November) schedules this year), and there are some interesting new destinations proposed for the future. The next round of pay talks are just beginning, with the focus firmly on lifestyle issues. Incrementally, things are improving for us in almost every direction and the pilot workforce is generally persuaded that things are going in the right direction. There are a few issues, as there are anywhere, but no deal-breakers.

There are several threads on this board that suggest from within BA that things are not so great - and many of the complaints brought in this thread 2 years ago have not been satisfactorily addressed. The new pilot contract and pension arrangements have not gone down well, and, for a new-joiner, do not compare particularly favourably with Virgin's. BA is still a great company, and my many friends there say that things are not as bad as they are painted here by some, but there are none who, if they were looking for a job right now (and accepting that we are talking only about longhaul) would choose BA over Virgin.

Scroggs

with regard to employment issues, I was just wondering what the VS incremental pay is (2% + inflation?)? Are there pay negotiations coming up soon, and how much (average) do you get in downroute allowances??

Cheers.

For specific information on Virgin's recruiting, T&Cs etc., look here. As for the next round of pay talks, as I said in my 30 April post:

The next round of pay negotiations are focused on lifestyle. Could anyone elaborate on how lifestyle could be improved?

At the moment pilots are flying 750 hours with excellent staff travel benefits on top (almost the best in the industry)?!!!

I have searched scroggs' previous posts on other threads and cannot find definitive details about annual increments. I have seen 2% + rpi (2-2.5%) as a ballpark figure.

Although I do not know the exact BA figures I believe they gain substantially higher increments than those quoted for VS!

With regard to trip allowances how much can one expect to take home per month? I understand that it depends on routes etc but an average figure would help!! (I have seen Scroggs' previous posts on this matter (£6000/yr, but have heard differing opinions ie up to £900/month=£10800/YEAR)

Cheers
SS320:confused: :confused: :\

Annual increment is 2.5% in your anniversary month. Any increases due to a pay deal are on top of that.

Re allowances downroute, on the 'Bus I probably bring home (ie after looking after myself downroute) about £300 - £350/month. I haven't ever been sad enough to keep a record, so that might be an underestimate. Also, nb that I'm not a huge party animal, some of my more festive colleagues (!!) probably bring rather less than that home.

Sidestick lifestyle issues include things like rostering, the ability to plan days off in the future, leave allocation, overtime working agreements, and a host of other factors that individually are minor, but together can have a large effect on lifestyle. Improvements can always be made, and the goalposts are constantly moving even in the best of companies. And pay talks are never just about pay...!

You are confusing length-of-service increments with annual RPI uplifts. There is no element of RPI associated with LOS increments. The LOS incrementation is based on whatever your salary is on the anniversary of your entry to the company. RPI and other negotiated salary increases happen on an agreed date for all employees in a given group. The combination of increment and negotiated increase will be considerably more than the figures you mention. The details of the last BALPA-negotiated Virgin pay deal have been discussed and published here before; suffice to say the increase over the last three years has been very substantial. We don't earn as much as BA pilots do, particularly in the later years, but we don't work as hard either!

Allowances are based on an agreed daily subsistence rate for each hotel. This figure is agreed also with the Inland Revenue as adequate to provide a reasonable standard of living consistent with our expectations and the facilities on offer (themselves subject to union/company negotiation), and not as an income supplement, and is thus tax free as of earlier this year. The total allownces received in a year is highly dependent on where you go and how often you go there! One person could get £4000, another £10,000. Most will get something in between.

As a DEP you start on 44000 which goes up by about 2000 each year allowances looking at about 10000-13000 depends how much you get drafted etc. I believe our bidline system even though I am bottom 777 fleet is awesome and most importantly fair and transparent. How ever do think you may do a trip or two more a month with BA if on 777.

Help required from BA chaps and girls
 

Hi all,

I would be very grateful for a bit of clarification from any BA peeps reading this. I realise that the nature of this forum is for gripes rather than glowing testimonials, however, as someone who may be in a position to join BA in the near future would anyone be able to enlighten me why there are so many bad vibes about the company at the moment? If you had a choice from other airlines who were offering you positions (Virgin/Monarch) would you prefer them to BA?

I shortly will be in position to decide which airline to work for (if any have me!) after my time flying in the military. I had always percieved BA to be one of the favourites, however, people seem to be very unhappy there at the moment. Of course there is the possibility that I may end up stacking shelves at Tesco, however, assuming i had a choice to make any advice would be appreciated. Would you guys swap BA for say Virgin? Monarch? What are the specific problems at the monment? And also, anyone who is really happy with there lot?

To anyone who replies, thanks for your help, and if anyone feels like PMing me, feel free.

Thanks again for any help/advice

Another question for VS guys. I would love to join you some day and although I'm not in a position to apply yet would appreciate some advice. I currently fly heavy turboprops for a regional carrier and am thinking about making a move onto jets.
My question is do VS favour crew from any particular airlines or rated on any particular aircraft (excluding the obvious A340/B747) or is it simply an Airbus or Boeing rating. I know they have gone as small as the BAe146 in the past, but that might just be a four engine issue. Does size matter;)
It may seem trivial at this time but these decisions can affect your future.

Size matters in that Virgin prefers you to have 'commercial jet' time:
As you say, A340 or B744 time is ideal, but many Virgin recruits don't have such types on their licence. Many of our guys are from the B737/A320, and there are a few from the military and other less common backgrounds. I can't think of anyone who's recently joined with 'only' BAe146/RJ experience, but I won't hold myself hostage to fortune by saying categorically that it hasn't happened!

Basically, the core VS applicant has around 4000 or more hours, with 2500 or more on jets of B737 size or larger. There are exceptions, but they needed an extra dose of luck!

Scroggs

Is it likely that having the minimum requirements as specified on the VS website, will get you an interview with VS? Or do you need in the region of 4000hrs TT to get an interview?

1. No

2. Yes

Just wondering...
 

Hi Scroggs!

I was wondering if one has 4000h total time on 737/320, has applied online and since then hasn´t heard anything from VS (applied in dec 05) if one should just go ahead and apply again online? Possibly the first one was lost in the wide world of bits and bites...

Is VS right now actually looking for pilots?

Thanks a lot for your help!
Cheers
sundanser

I'd say yes and yes. Last I heard, our requirement for new pilots is roughly similar to last year (about 140). I'm not sure how intelligent the software for the online application is; it may recognise you and refuse you a second go, in which case I'd write a letter or e-mail Janine to confirm whether or not she has your details.

Just to put things in perspective, though, for those 140 pilots the company probably interviewed something over 500 well-qualified people, and had applications from many, many more. There are many perfectly good people who won't get an interview, as luck will always play a part.

Scroggs..regarding T & C's Im doing a quick comparison (guess where I work..:) )
A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.

Thanks in advance:ok:

BA.

No significant changes except we're now even shorter of pilots. Much Force Drafting going on at the moment. For those who don't speak BA, that's being forced to go in on a day off, with a disciplinary if you refuse.

777 now doing more long-range, three-crew trips (mainly to India) and fewer to the Eastern seaboard. 747 pretty much the same as it was. 767 picking up more Eastern seaboard.

Oh yes, and they're still trying to steal our pensions - but that's for another thread.

If you are a new joiner to BA they have already stolen your pension!

Monarch Man - I think Scroggs might actually be working for a change, :) so I'll give him a hand and answer your questions.

1) No, absolutely no such plans whatsoever.

2) Yes. We're a 750 hour airline, anything over 760 hours is voluntary and would attract overtime pay - unless you get there by swopping trips.

3) Not quite. Allowances are based on the cost of living in the hotel - ie it's assumed that you eat all your meals in the hotel, and the allowance is structured accordingly. So the allowances in an expensive hotel in a cesspool destination might be more than those in an average hotel in a nice destination. (Hope that makes sense!)

Hope that helps.
t

FAO itsonlyme
 

itsonlyme

You don't seem to have had much joy so far.

Please PM me if you are interested in BA.

Mini mums:ugh:

Will pilots for Virgin Galactic be promoted from within the Virgin ranks?

P.S. Scroggs, are you one of the three so far that have been appointed?

:ok:

BA
 

Having joined BA last year:

Roster stability is good.

Bidline, although complicated allows me to bid quite successfully for a months work. I have been able to get to to most of the places I want to fly to. Have most of the days off that I want. Get some weekends off. Get a long run of non leave days off. Although not all at the same time.

The bidding system gives you the flexibility to manage commuting from almost anywhere.

777 is a top aircraft.

Destinations are good, all 35 ish of them, I like India, the Caribbean and China. But there are also some good trips to be had to the US, Africa and the Middle East. And we are getting Calgary and Singapore/Sydney.

There is a path to shorthall and other fleets.

Staff travel is good, when it works.

On the downside:
Time to captaincy is long on longhaul.

The pension is inadequate.

You are contracturally obliged to accept un rostered work, if 'they' can find you. Apparantly happens more than it rarely did previously. Never has happened to me or the majority of people I know.

Overall, a better deal than I was on a year ago and the bidding system is a major part of this.

Yes, I am working - 3rd East Coast trip this month!

There is not and will not be a 'B' scale. There has been no suggestion of any such thing, and there is no way we would allow it. That is not an empty claim.

The contract is 750 hours per year. There are options for fewer (370 or 640) hours for limited periods. There is also an extra working agreement for those who wish to take it on; they do so by volunteering at the start of the rostering year. There is no way that extra work can be imposed on any line pilot.

Allowances are based on the costs in the accommodating hotel. As an example, we use four different hotels in New York (certain hotels for certain flight numbers). The daily allowances in these hotels vary by up to $40 (though the trip allowances vary by a greater amount, dependent on arrival and departure times and the number of meal peiods covered). The average daily allowance is about £90 - £100.

More information on Virgin's Ts & Cs can be found in this thread.

I'm currently flying with KLM on the 777 as a second officer, 1,5 year of seniority, does anybody know if changing to BA when I reach the 500 hours on type and ATPL is a good carreermove? This is just a thing I was thinking about, no real plans at the moment.
I recognize a lot of the bad comments on BA regarding the attitude management has towards its pilots, and the overall service, we have that problem in KLM too, I think that from the european majors only Air France is still up tot standards in this aspect!

holiday time?
 

Back in the early posts of this thread, the topic came up of weekends and time off etc etc.
I know it probably depends on long haul/short haul but which of the two (BA or VS) is (generally) better in terms of time off?
Like which one is more likely to give you a few days at the other end of the flight to sightsee or relax or whatnot?

I rather like the idea that being a Pilot would allow travel (!)

Sarah

Weekends off in any 24/7 airline will be at the mercy of seniority. Total time off will tend to be a bit better in the 'legacy' carriers than the locos because of mature company/union working agreements. Time at home will tend to be more useful and longer on longhaul than shorthaul.

Shorthaul in any airline will rarely give you a nightstop of greater than mimimum length, and thus sightseeing opportunities will be severely limited. In longhaul it will depend on the schedule. many holiday-based routes aren't daily, and thus you may get two, three or more days at your destination. Depending on union agreements and flight time limitations, ultra-longhaul flights will normally have at least two local nights on the ground, so longhaul is the place to be if you want to see the world.

BA covers many more longhaul destinations than Virgin, who have only 25 or so destinations. However, individual fleets will not serve all destinations - I would guess that the BA 777 fleet has the widest coverage. Virgin has most of the best places to go, and few of the real fleapits of the world (depanding on your prefereneces), so the nice place/flight ratio is pretty good!

There are disadvantages, however, and they've been covered many times before. In short: fatigue, lack of poling time, extended stays away from home, and the impact of foreign food on a tender British digestive system are all reasons why longhaul doesn't suit everyone.

Travel or Work
 

I can't answer for VS, but when I saw a crew in Mumbai/Bombay the other day, they were on a 3 day trip and we were on a 4 day trip (3 for cabin crew).

It really depends on frequency of service. In BA sometimes we operate daily, several times daily, only a few times a week, or change aircraft type on different days. And this also changes between seasons.

Generally on a daily service you will have about 24 hours at destination before taking the next one back home.

On the 777 you get complete free days off to 'sight see' etc at the following destinations, but not on all flights:
Barbados, Boston, Cairo, Bahrain (but fly to Doha), Beijing, Shanghai, Harare, Atlanta, Newark, Washington, New York, Orlando, Tampa, Toronto, Montreal, Antigua (but some days have to fly to St Lucia/Grenada/Tobago), Kingston, Abu Dhabi (but fly to Muscat), Bangalore, Mumbai, Calcutta, Dhaka, Chennai/Madras.

I started with BA on the 777 at the start of the year. So far, I have not been drafted, and have had pretty good success at bidding for work, especially days off.

As far as I know, BA is the only UK L/H operator to allocate work by bidline, a system that allows you to bid work from a list of complete lines of work each month. This means you can bid for days off or destinations, depending on your preference. Lines are allocated in seniority order, and if you dont get one, you are then in the same boat as any other airline, with a preferencing system, where your work is allocated, taking preferences int account if possible.

For me, Bidline alone makes BA stand out as my top choice.

You do hear a lot of whinging on here about BA. In my view, this is due to:
1. BA has more pilots than anyone else, by a mile.
2. BA used to be SO good, that the terms have slipped a little, but it is still well up there.


I left the RAF this year as a Training Captain with the transport fleet, and was lucky to have a good choice of UK airlines. The positive reasons I chose BA are:
1. Direct Entry Longhaul on 777
2. Good pay
3. Solid BALPA membership
4. Stability (No layoffs post 9/11)
5. BIDLINE

fokkerking, are you serious? You really don’t know how lucky you are! Stay put and say thank-you to God everyday. Co-Co KLM must be one of the best jobs in aviation.
lekkerste, 10 years BA -400 and ex-KLM 737.

BA or not
 

currently a Captain with the worlds favourite Orange Airline. Considering whether Ba is still worth the jump to become a longhaul B777 F/O .
Any advice or experiences?

coogansrun
 

IMHO it depends on how old you are and how much you hanker after Command responsibility ( notice I didn't use the word "status").
Given the very recent change to retirement age you will sit as an F/O on any Fleet for years and years and......

Thanks Wiggy. Command is all very well - good take home about £4400 per month but very hard to imagine working this hard until I retire. Im currently late 30s so its a now or never with BA.
Any more BA longhaul lifestyle issue opinions would be appreciated.

coogansrun
 

I'm not on the 777, I'm on the 744 so my advice comes with a health warning.

Life at BA is no bed of roses, be under no doubts that you will certainly be working hard on the 744/747. I know that on Longhaul you do not do the x sector days you do at EZE but BA have got rostering down to such a fine art, despite Bidline, that you will probably find your monthly/annual hours at EZE and BA will be much the same, and will often be doing 6 trips a month, some possibly "back to back". Couple that with the time zone changes and night flights and you will be fatigued for a lot of the time, albeit in a different way to that in Shorthaul.

The other issue you might want to consider is time at home, particularly if you have kids. Long slips downroute can be great but remember you're not getting home every/most nights, for some an plus :} for others a minus :( .

(edited to make more sense.....)

Never done 6 trips a month.

Only been back to back on reserve.

Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).

Not so many long slips on the 777.

I guess life is different on the 744.

Oh and not many early starts either.

Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.

I like it.

Pension is still rubbish though.

Mostly agree Mr R, but the 6 trip months certainly do happen...spoke to a 777 victim earlier today in Compass Centre ( why was I lurking there? - I'm in the middle of a back to back :ugh:). Then again both he and I were trip line holders trying to make the dreaded CAP to avoid pay being docked.
I used to like it.................
Rgds

Wiggy I hope you don't mind me making it clear to non-BA speakers that you bid for it, as you would not normally be rostered that on the -400.

I've bid for a back-to-back as well in August (same fleet) but it's only the second time in 12 months.

On the 777, five trips a month is about the norm. Six is certainly a realistic possiblity. Rest assured (sic), you will be knackered.

Most of the 777s do not have bunks fitted for long-range work. Sixteen (the ERs) do, although it's a bit of a lash up at the back of First class. It is possible to get a reasonable kip though. Six of these jets will be fitted with the proper overhead rest area at some point. (I'll believe it when I see it. :rolleyes: )

To further Mr Ripley's comments (horses for courses though, I suppose):

Never done 6 trips a month.

Fair comment. As already mentioned, five is about the norm although six is a possibility.

Only been back to back on reserve.

Lucky. As a junior pilot, you'll probably be a Blind Line Holder (rostered) so you cannot be forced to "back-to-back". As a Trip Line Holder, you may need to bid for it to make CAP.

Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).

This is changing markedly. Keep in mind how much fuel costs and how little a 777 burns compared to a -400. The 777 will be operating the SIN/SYD service by the end of the year and is planned to operate the BKK/SYD and the SIN service in due course. Don't rule out a return to South America either.

Not so many long slips on the 777.

Ditto.

I guess life is different on the 744.

At the moment. The more long-range trips on the 777, the fewer long-range trips on the -400.

Oh and not many early starts either.

Also changing.

Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.

About normal.

I like it.

Good.

Pension is still rubbish though.

Couldn't agree more.

Well i just had an interview with BA.

For those of you who were hoping for an FO slot on the 777 forget about it in the forseeable future (as their reps told us at the lunchtime break).

Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....

Fair enough for me :-) I didn't make it last year and my 12month re-apply ban is over tomorrow :} Does anybody know if there are as many applicants as last year?

I was told that I can hold out for a 777 course in Oct, and thats what I've elected to do. Could it depend on your previous experience?