I would not recommend that anyone 'holds' out for a course at a later day for two reasons. Firstly requirements change especially in October this year as the new age legislation is coming into effect and I doubt much training will be going on over this period until numbers of pilots staying on after 55 is known. Secondly in British Airways seniority is key to everything that effects your working life. Between now and October you could find yourself 50 - 60 places lower down the list than you otherwise could of been. In the past when things were very stagnent this could easily translate into an extra 2-3 years for command, fleet change etc.. My advice for BA is get in as soon as possible on whichever fleet you will not lose anything by doing this, when I go to longhaul in 18 months time I will join above all of those who have joined direct into longhaul for the past 18 months because seniority is key. Only my thoughts, hope it all works out.

Absolutely sound advice. PPRuNe was only in its infancy when I was starting in the airlines and i wish I'd had someone telling me all this 20yrs ago.

If you want a career in a major airline, take the first job they offer you. Then try to blag yourself onto an earlier course. Even only one place higher is worth it!

Nite Flyer,

No i dont believe what they told us depended on experience, as i have enough experience for the 777 too. Durng the interview lunch chat they joked about how 'mad' people were waiting for the 777. I know how you feel as the 777 is what i wanted. But i dont believe its an option anymore.

As the others have said dont hold out. Seniority is key. If they take you on 777 in Oct lets say and your on the bottom and they dont hire anyone externally for years, for the 777, you will remain at the bottom of seniority on the 777 fleet. Even though you've been flying it for longer, you will be junior to them as they have more company time. Just take what they give you!

It's not that we don't need 777 pilots, we do. It's just there's no spare sim capacity. ;)

In joining BA the only people that you care about are the pilots on the seniority list BELOW YOU. Enough on that one.

Anyone holding out for the 777 I can see your point but a piece of advice. If you get offered the 757/767 jump on it like a fat kid on a big mac because its a great fleet to be on. Mixed fleet flying, great equipment and a wide range of destinations. Bidline+757/767 fleet=happy pilots from what I have seen.

Just my take but the key here is get in ASAP.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

I beg to differ, the only people you should care about are those on the seniority list above you! After all, they probably have the job you want and until they leave, retire or pass away it will still be their job.
Get in early..........by a fluke of the system a friend of mine joined 6 weeks before me and has had a 757/767 command for 2 years now. However, I probably won't get near it for several years :{
Plus, for those who think that being the best pilot (or brown nose) ever will get you an early command - it won't. Only one or two have ever broken the system and that's by becoming a manager. :eek:

I can only echo the above posters. Anyone who wants to join BA, but delays by 1 day for the fleet they want, has misunderstood the whole BA concept :yuk:
Your seniority number determines for your whole career your Seat, Fleet, Monthly Roster re Days Off / Destinations, Leave, liability to Forced Draft, (effectively) Pay, Staff Travel Rights, Standby Periods...
Given that in 2 months time the "turnover rate" is likely to reduce by ~90%, your seniority number i.e. Date of Joining will go from being of 100% importance to 150% :{ My P2 in the sim today was congratulated for a very good, but cautious "P1 Incapacitation" approach - he did his best to ensure everybody below my ~1650 Seniority # "moved up 1" :ooh:
NoD

Completely agree with the previous sentiments. In my case, I did the 'done' thing and continued to work for my previous employer in order to complete my full notice term.

Actually my previous would have let me go early, but I thought I should complete my contract. BA dropped me off my first course and I started about 6 weeks later than originally planned......the result about 40 places further down the seniority list for life!

I actually ended up going to long haul straight away instead of the short haul offered on the earlier course date. Fantastic for my life style now etc but looking into the future, my career choices will always be behind those who started on the original date.

Also, for those who wish to commute, when the push comes to a shove, equal priority standby pax are given seats based on their date of joining.

Basically, we should have all joined at 18 years old!

To all you BA guys how long did you have to wait in the Hold Pool?

I have been waiting months and months in the VS Hold Pool :(

coded messages

With regard to the VS holding pool, can I ask :

Are you Airbus A320/330 rated or B747 rated? Or are you waiting for a full type rating course?

I am 400 rated

Interesting. Maybe as there is less 744 recruitment that explains the delay, either way, I wish you well.

Very interesting thread, very. :D

Avoid BA. For all the above reasons. Avoid. :rolleyes: :=

Jonsv and snooky : we all obviously work for the same company!
Im tired of people telling me how lucky I am to have my job. Its not a job, its a disaster that has torn my life apart.

Life at BA
 

After a long absence from pprune in my boredom while downroute with my octogenerean crew I came across this thread and thought it was time to come out of the shadows and make my first posting on pprune.

I've been in BA for just over a year now, on the B777 and thought I'd add my views to some of those expressed here as regards life in Big Airways.

OK... well first the good points in my opinion. Job security has to be among the very best there is in the UK. The route network is superb and growing rapidly though with my seniority the same destinations (mainly east coast US) have a habit of repeating. Opportunity to do long and short haul in your career if thats what you want to do. Personally it seems to me that the majority of people on shorthaul Airbus are making the jump to longhaul as soon as they can due to working like dogs, 800hrs+ seems the norm for those guys. Everything is generally well organised, at least in terms of previous airline experience though of course the occassional cock up does occur. Bidline can be very good in terms of determining getting your days off when you want.

Downsides... time to command... current estimates for a long haul command range from 16-20+ years. Workload, at BA there is a system based on hitting a set number of hours and if you don't then you have pay deducted to cover the shortfall. Usually this requires you to fly around 85 hours a month or thereabouts. In order to achieve this target I've tended to do 5 trips a month, sometimes 6 which I can assure you is exhausting. 2 days off between trips is not uncommon though you can control this somewhat with bidding. If you are under 35 you will generally be the youngest person on the trip by a noticeable margin, which is fine though doesn't always make for the most vibrant exciting nightstops. By this I'm not meaning explicitly in terms of shacking up with crew but just even in terms of going out for drinks, food, days out etc... not always but mostly you'll find the crew have been there a thousand times before, too tired, can't be arsed etc to go do anything. What they do locked away in their rooms eating pot noodles I have no idea. It's not exactly a party fun vibrant airline though that is not to say that the people you work with aren't perfectly pleasant. Mostly the trips have just one night downroute though more routes are opening for 777.

Most people in the airline are friendly and helpful though I have met one or two people who seem to think that there are only 2 types of pilot those who work for BA and those that didn't get in. These people despite what you might hear are in the minority though is does really grate on me and make me cringe when I hear that sort of nonsense. Also had one CSD who could barely bring herself to speak to me as I had only 2 stripes which was pathetic but amusing in equal measures. As I say these incidents are very isolated but they do happen.

Pay after tax, pension etc for a new joiner is around £3500 per month. The company pay in 9% of your basic to your pension which is shockingly poor really when you compare to many in the charter world who will pay in 14-15% and fares even worse to the Virgin pension. Based on default contribution rates BALPA reakon after 30 years you'd retire on a pension around £25,000. Of course you can pay in more if you want though that will reduce your monthly net pay.

Overall I think it is a good company though the workload is exceptionally high in my opinion. Pay is average when you take the pension into account and the fact that you will be at least middle aged/old by the time you get a long haul command. The job is about as secure as you can get and despite it not being a particularly vibrant airline you can have some fun nights out etc downroute now and again.

Hope this helps, all just my opinion...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but seem to be implying that the Virgin pension is worse than the others you mention. In fact, Virgin pays 15% contributions on all salary plus all profit-related pay and extra working pay. While it is not all we would necessarily want, it is arguably the best deal available in the UK airline business at the moment - and considerably better than the new BA deal.

Scroggs

Scroggs - I'm not quite sure how you read Supadupafly's post as dispargaging although I think it should have said 'against the Virgin pension'.

I can assure you that any of us on the new BA pension scheme BARP, look enviously at the contributions that Virgin are putting in for you guys.:{

Correction to my previous post
 

Hey Scroggs, just to clarify that yes indeed I was trying to make the point that the Virgin pension is considerably better than the BARP BA one. Sorry if I didn't make that clear originally, I can only assume my brain has slowed down from flying 6 trips in the past 4 weeks. As oojamaflip states us guys in BA on the new pension scheme look enviably at the contribution Virgin and many other carriers make on behalf of their pilots. There was(is) talk that BALPA are going to try and improve the company contribution rates for BARPers as part of the upcoming pension showdown though as time drags on the focus is increasingly shifting to aiding the pilots in NAPS with little or nothing said for sometime on improving BARPs. BALPA seem to favour the view that we should all support the guys in NAPS as a priority on the basis that if BA can get away with changing their pension for the worse then we'll be next. In return BALPA will endevour to get some improvement to BARPs.

Truth be known I'd love to fly for Virgin. I think BA is a good company to work for but Virgin has to be a clear favourite for a number of reasons. I have many friends in Virgin so feel I have some insight into the differences between the 2 airlines. Just a pity that Virgin have just stopped accepting applications for the time being.... poor timing on my part... well maybe one day .. I can dream.

Looks like BA has frozen recruitment at the moment, any news?

I am 33 working for a charter looking for a possibility of jumping ship, is it too late for BA?

:confused:

Did I hear that Virgin have put a stop to recruitment for the foreseeable future? They seem to think there are hard times ahead?

TBE.

For the forseeable future? No. Just for the moment. Look at the Virgin thread for more information.

Scroggs

BA or Virgin ? Well, I'm at BA and it seems many of us relatively new FOs are becoming increasingly disappointed. All that was said in the frustration illustrations is true. From a fantiastically motivated individual, I have become a disillusionned one. Of course some days are better than others, but generally, I would say that when you are surrounded with so much negativity and frustration, you just tip over the edge and become negative yourself. I guess it all depends on how much !!!! you get before you become unhappy and at BA, you get a lot and it happens quickly. It took me 6 months only.
I just want my happy life back (I was happier making less money) and I really hope Virgin has the ingredients to keep its crew pleased. Many of us will try to jump ship as soon as possible. BA management apparently are ignoring this right now. Only the junior guys will want to leave anyway. Not all will make it either. I would not be surprised if BA would introduce a bond in the near future so that they can decrease working conditions further.
If you had the choice, its a no brainer, go to Virgin first.

BA has been a bit of a disappointment for me for the last couple of years due to a)BARP and b)retirement age 65 and effect on progression.

Now that BARP looks to have been significantly improved as part of the pension solution and the 65 effect is not as dire as expected I can say that BA is the place to be. Looking forward I can see expansion, great route structure, great fleets and great rostering. T&C are pretty good too.

I'm Gatwick based so can't speak for life at Heathrow, and we don't have Bidline. Now all we have to do is get our customers back and all will be rosy. I think the choice between VS and BA is quite close, BA does give you a short haul option as well, (at present).

Although WW is not as charismatic as RB he has turned out to be far more considered than the slasher we all expected. He is forthright and does what he says. I would say that I am proud to work for BA again and the heavy atmosphere seems to have lifted.

Wait till you get to heathrow. Although you'll get significantly more time off, the dysfunction of it and the sad crew atmosphere is likely to get to you as it did for me. You'll enjoy your time off and will be at pains to come back to work. Having said that, you are not wrong. The BARP pension improvement puts my mind at rest too and if I don't get into Virgin, BA is a second best which is good already. But it could and should be so much better...

From the horses (BA management's) mouth. "Hardly any pilots leave BA. We are therefore paying too much or your t's & c's are too good. Do not expect any improvements - indeed expect the opposite - until leaving rates rise."

Nice attitude eh. Could be they won't have to wait too long judging by the posts above.

I didn't say I hadn't applied elsewhere though, I have looked a little further east. At the moment BA is a nose ahead but if things get squeezed I expect lots with applications already running will go, some might already be swimming in the pool! ;)

Indeed you're right. I hope to be out by then. The only glitch is that what they say is not completely wrong: Virgin is 10 times smaller than BA and can't absorbe that many BA piltos. Plus the only guys who would leave would typically have the following profile: 2500h+ hours DEPs who did not have enough to get on the 777. They have the !!!! airbus lifestyle and enough hours to get to Virgin. The low hours self sponsored will stay at BA because they don't have a choice. So BA will lose a few experienced airbus copilots and that's all.
Because BA is still attractive, they'll have no problem replacing us with the present T&Cs, so why would they bother. In fact, I think the only thing they'll do about it is to put a 4 year bond in place for newcomers. That should sort it out from their perspective. You're right, our conditions are unlikely to improve.
Putting things in perspective, again, BA is not that bad and as said above, there are some things like the quality of our trainers that I praise BA for. With a few more years seniority, my lifestyle will improve, and when longhaul comes along, I'll be able to just sit back and see less and less of LHR. Plus the fleet renewals will mean interesting opportunities and T5 will also be interesting from the shorthaul perspective...

I joined BA from a LCO, and had enough experience to get onto the 777 directly, but not enough to get looked at by VS.

Overall I'm very happy, although the real negative is the time to command.
I work blindlines and although this means lots of weekends I only work 4/4.5 trips a month on average. Last month was particularly quiet and I worked 12 days and took home 3900. If I want a tripline I could get a fairly crappy one with my seniority, however it could work for me if I need a specific day off. The point is there are options and good flexibility in the system.

I continue to monitor things at VS, as it was always my first choice. However I worry as things like annual hour limits have a tendancy to dissapear over time. The size of the airline means they will never have the variety that BA can offer.

I acknowledge BA shorthall LHR would be my worst nightmare. Would have preferred staying with a Lco than getting into that :yuk:

JT8,

In order for Virgin to make us work 900 hours a year, they would have to negotiate HARD with our BALPA CC. That would cost them a lot of cash I hope...

As for never being as big as BA, maybe not, but there could be a hell of an expansion in order to get bigger. Who knows?

At the end of the day, if you do a typical month at Virgin, you walk away with £3300 a month PLUS your cash downroute (after pension contributions and YEAR 1 figures). It's identical to BA really, but our pension is a little better and we will have worked a trip less (or thereabouts each month).

Take your pick guys, but the reality of it is that both airlines are right up there in the marketplace for pay and conditions, irrespective of what we may all think.

Final salary pensions are long gone. Forget them and look at some airlines where you just get abused and more abused each year.

Life ain't bad in either BA or VS............there are a lot of people who would like our jobs.

Yeah, well I would prefer yours :zzz: to mine :ugh:. I had a dream...:} .

speedy451

Apply again then. People have got in at the next attempt. I believe if you look at Virgin's website they may have just started recruiting again.

Good luck, but don't top yourself if you don't get in. There is plenty more to life than flying..............

Hello, Stansdead, well It will be my first attempt since I had not applied before... I shall put in my application right now.

Virgin or BA
 

The last debate on this was some time ago. With new T&Cs/rosters/pensions/pilots I was wondering if people could offer their experience in the two airlines to compare.

I'm in the fortunate position of having offers from both BA & Virgin, and whilst it's one of the best positions you can be in, the gravity of the decision is dawning on me.

BA Pros
* Probably the most stable company to work for
* Variety of fleets, both SH & LH options
* Relatively good pay & conditions
* Lots of leave

BA Cons
* Worked incredibly hard with time at the bottom of seniority very unsociable (particularly with new bid system?). Roster looks pretty awful..
* Impersonal/corporate (could be advantage or disadvantage depending on personality)

Virgin Pros
* Seems like a fun, friendly & relaxed place to work
* Capped at 750 hrs per year
* Delta/Air France KLM owning 49% & 31% respectively so stronger than ever, and supposedly like the brand
* Better work life balance from what I've seen, with rotating seniority a personal plus so I can enjoy the next decade of my life

Virgin Cons
* Not as stable - 28 million loss when every other airline is making money, equity minus £25 million...
* Ambiguity as to Delta/Air France KLM want to do with the airline (Alaska collapsed Virgin America albeit a different business model), after all it is loss making
* Committing to LH for the rest of your life

Any thoughts from people in the two airlines would be really interesting.

The question of which is better to work for is down to personal preferences, but surely only relevant if:

a) You work for one and have a job offer from the other, or....

b) You work for neither but have a job offer from both at the same time.

No?

BA considerations
 

Just a couple of points to consider from a BA long hauler. I’m not interested in a pissing contest, I’ve got mates in both companies who enjoy the job and wherever you go, I’m sure you’ll love it.

One massive plus point about the BA rosters is that once they’re finalised you can then swap, drop (although this has become more difficult) and pick up trips at the click of a button, as long as it’s legal. For a junior guy, this means that their roster may eventually look nothing like the original. This swapping system will remain in place after JSS comes in and there is a big swapping culture on most fleets. I’m bottom third on the list and get lots of weekends off because everyone wants something different. I’m on an easy mid-week trip now because someone wanted to take their partner away for the weekend. With a pretty extensive route structure and a lot of pilots to swap with, you can scan down the list of swaps like a menu in a restaurant deciding where to go!

Regarding the unsociable lifestyle comment, there is another point I’d like to mention. If you haven’t been long haul before, you may not realise just how social it is. Unlike short haul, many destinations have 2, 3 or sometimes 4 crews all nightstopping so it becomes very sociable. Weekend trips take on a new perspective. You’ll very likely have a beer with your oppo in BA/VAA too in some destinations. If that isn’t your thing then remember both companies allow you to take along friends and family to turn those longer trips away into mini-holidays.

Not sure I’d agree with your corporate culture point as I can’t say I’ve really noticed but maybe that’s just me.

Anyway, good luck with the choice, nice position to be in!