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It's using the crisis as the basis for a massive 'land grab' and the ability to push through a full 'wish list' combination using the Covid 19 crisis as cover.
The Cabin Crew letter is, in my opinion, frankly brutal. They know that they will chop the majority of WW and EF crew with this. There is little or no way that those employees on those contracts will do the same work for the remuneration given by what will effectively be 'the Gatwick' contract. The demise of the service industries across the UK will give rise to a willing flow of applicants who can be easily and quickly trained up to become part of this new, 'efficient' workforce. Again, nothing they could have pushed through without the pandemic as the available group of recruits wouldn't have been there or simply wouldn't accept a slave driven, zero hours contract. Totally opportunistic. As for Schedule K and Gatwick, it doesn't take much of a leap to see what WW is after especially given his interest in Norwegian in the past. Kill off Schedule K, as called for already, close down the base at Gatwick, hostile buyout of NAS UK operation. Repaint, re-brand as British Airways Holidays and you have a set up SH/LH hub and spoke operation using new 737's and 787's. Add in the ability to restructure the debt down to 1-1.5% and the already existing BA back office and services structure and you have a neat, cheap low-cost holiday carrier branded in BA colours. Only if you can get rid of that pesky Scheduling agreement though. The rest is all the 'stuff' that as annoyed the senior management for years as they pick and choose what parts of the 'legacy' agreements suit their current agenda. Absence and sickness management? A desperately needed amendment during a pandemic! Even O'Leary reckons the SH market will recover within 2 years and he's normally the pessimistic one! So El Macho claiming 'several' years for LH whilst all the business travelers are already fed up working from home with Skype/Zoom/Team etc. and missing their lunches, dinners, bars and expense accounts during meetings seems more targeted toward scaremongering the staff than reality. He's never had the business acumen to see that far forward so why start now? BA provided almost 80% of IAG's combined profit last financial year. What a great idea going forward this won't be. Relationship reset? Well I suppose it is in a way. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by TURIN
(Post 10769204)
Good point.
It is the job role that is redundant, not the individual. Of course, I'm sure BA's HR department is working overtime to discover a legal loophole that will allow them to redifine each job role. BA must offer ‘suitable alternative employment’ to anyone facing redundancy (as long as you have been working there for two years or more). It could offer new jobs at LHR, but with new T&Cs. However, if you live in East Grinstead and work at LGW and face the commute to LHR in a new, less well paid, role, whatever is on offer might not be that attractive in terms of time and cost to the employee. BA cannot force pay cuts on staff that breach terms of contract, unless the employee voluntarily agrees to it. Trying to frighten employees into accepting worse terms of employment by holding the axe over LGW operations looks to me like hedging bets. BA thinks it can either save alot of money if it gains agreement to worsen terms and keep (some?) of its LGW ops open, which it can always close later on, or close it altogether now and concentrate at LHR T5. Either way it slashes costs. Given the corporate culture at BA, this really shouldn't surprise anyone. I wouldn't hold out much hope for anything more than statutory minimum payout either. It's very tough being made redundant in normal times, but so much worse now. My thoughts are with those under notice. I know how gut wrenching it is. |
Don’t think the Home Counties (what, why?), plummy middle England thing was relevant or well placed. Not likely to illicit sympathy or probably chime with many at that firm.
But outside the sentiment, meat and potatoes points are good. Awful times. |
Originally Posted by RTM Boy
(Post 10769261)
Under redundancy legislation, it is always the role that is made redundant, not the person. There is no need to look for 'loopholes', because there are plenty of criteria that justify redundancy, set out in legislation. One key redundancy reasonableness criterion is the physical location of the role. This may be what is behind the talk of closing operations at Gatwick. It would be legally more straightforward to make all LGW-based employees redundant, because the base is closing (ie very hard to challenge the redundancy in consultation, or at an Employment Tribunal afterwards).
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This is truly awful.. I feel sorry for the pilots that left Flybe just before its demise to join BA.....
I simply cannot believe that during a global crisis a company is seeking to take advantage by screwing its employees and I can’t believe WW stayed on to do it. I know its show business not show friends but this is taking the piss! I didn't think Virgin should receive a hand out but now I hope they do and WW is told to F$%k off back to Madrid. No Chance they'll close LGW, Jet2 are probably already planning to open a base and buy some 787s from Norwegian |
There was significant outcry when a certain Irish COO tried to do similar at the orange loco - so much so that senior government bods were 'aware'. I see no difference in this attack than in the former, and so I would hope there will be as much outcry / awareness this time.
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A few key points . No one is flying . Zero cashflow . Ballot asap for an indefinite strike . Its got to be better than a zero hours contract for the poor sods left flogging across the pond at some ridiculous hour of the night .
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Originally Posted by Jamie2009
(Post 10769295)
No Chance they'll close LGW, Jet2 are probably already planning to open a base and buy some 787s from Norwegian |
Originally Posted by The Foss
(Post 10769293)
I may have misunderstood it but was the letter not threatening redundancy for all cabin crew at both bases?
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Originally Posted by Driver airframe
(Post 10769308)
Ballot asap for an indefinite strike .
They'd probably be grateful for the reduction in the wage bill. |
Originally Posted by Panel3
(Post 10769322)
Despite saying he doesn't want a bailout from the British government for BA, IAG (Walsh) has accepted a 1b€ bailout for Iberia and Vueling from the Spanish government.
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Originally Posted by Panel3
(Post 10769322)
Despite saying he doesn't want a bailout from the British government for BA, IAG (Walsh) has accepted a 1b€ bailout for Iberia and Vueling from the Spanish government.
Summing up: Spanish govt has lent money to Iberia and Vlg as a bank. Iberia and Vlg will have to pay back with a more flexible calendar and with less fees. |
BA have issued the letter to the Union that says clearly "all cabin crew, regardless of contract at LHR are at risk (listing all three contracts and the ranks of the crew under each contract), all 3 employment contracts at LHR will be removed and will not apply in future and a new contract will be issued and if crew do not sign it they will be dismissed from the business by way of Redundancy or Other Substantive reason"
They're making it clear that people will exit the business during a period of mid June to end December 2020 and that redundancy will be comply with statutory minimums and will not be enhanced due to the current environment. It is clearly a premeditated plan, they've had sat on the shelf waiting for an opportunity to implement and being the low live beings they are they have chosen this moment, mid furlough, to implement and screw over the crew (regardless of whether they are EF, WW or MF) whilst paying Willy an additional £3m bonus. The result will be, even for those that stay, a fully disgruntled work force, offering even poorer service than they do already, and I hope it is kept in the headlined long enough for the world to see them for what they are and stop flying with them out of principle. Hope the business fails big time. |
world to see them for what they are and stop flying with them out of principle. Hope the business fails big time. Ever seen Monty Python? Syrian Suicide Squad? Similar level. |
Markos wrote:
Please let's stick to the real facts. The Spanish govt hasn't issued a bailout for Iberia and Vueling. They have just offered a credit line throught the ICO (Offical Credit Institute). That is money (liquidity), to avoid the companies collapse. This credit lines have better T&C's than the traditional banks or investors. This "ICO" credits have been also offered to hundreds of company through all the sectors in Spain. Summing up: Spanish govt has lent money to Iberia and Vlg as a bank. Iberia and Vlg will have to pay back with a more flexible calendar and with less fees. |
I think BA have opened the bottom drawer of problems they long wanted to fix and thrown it in. For BA staff worried about CV19 to receive this at this time is a worry. No mention of how many Directors are going to get the bullet I assume...
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WW doesn’t care though because he’s not a normal human being, he lacks any basic empathy. In short he’s a psychopath. Unfortunately these are traits that are widespread in business nowadays. Don’t even bother asking what they think when they look in the mirror. They just don’t care.
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Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them. The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air. If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10769506)
WW doesn’t care though because he’s not a normal human being, he lacks any basic empathy. In short he’s a psychopath. Unfortunately these are traits that are widespread in business nowadays. Don’t even bother asking what they think when they look in the mirror. They just don’t care.
Many, many years ago I had a meeting with our firm's chief accountant who was demanding we cut staffing on a project because the company 'needed' to save money. I explained precisely why this was a very bad idea and what the consequences would be, including that we would be breaching the contract we had with the client for doing what he was demanding. He then simply repeated his demand to drop the headcount. I suggest he could save even more money if the business got rid of all staff altogether. I swear than for a second my sarcastic idea crossed his mind as a viable option. |
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
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Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey
(Post 10769507)
Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them. The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air. If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle. |
I think BA have opened the bottom drawer of problems they long wanted to fix and thrown it in |
Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey
(Post 10769507)
Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them. The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air. If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle. |
Originally Posted by HZ123
(Post 10769530)
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
Normal Redundancies as per current agreements could be understood by anyone in this climate as a necessity but they seem to be taking advantage of the situation to reshape the business in a take it or leave it way. A strike won't achieve much as the Public generally have little sympathy for pilots on £100k plus preventing them from getting where they need to go. |
Jet2 will be just fine, don't think the words Jet2 and bail out have ever been mentioned once by anyone ever.
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Originally Posted by Jamie2009
(Post 10769544)
Jet2 will be just fine, don't think the words Jet2 and bail out have ever been mentioned once by anyone ever.
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I don’t think you understand UK employment law. Secondary action is illegal, the Union’s funds would be seized and non BA pilots striking in support would be sacked.
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Originally Posted by HZ123
(Post 10769530)
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
He’s just put his begging bowl out for Vueling and Iberia (no redundancies so far) but, with an act of gross hypocrisy, refuses to do the same for BA because he’d rather pressure the U.K. government to fail to act and ensure Virgin go under and is willing to use 12,000 of his own staff’s livelihoods and families as collateral damage in that process. Pray tell me again why I’m wrong in my assessment of his character? (And if you’d read further back in the thread my comments were in response to a post (not quoted) asking how management sleep at night. This was my answer. FYI You’re not the forum police and you don’t get to censor posts because you have failed to understand the meaning of a word or its context) |
BALPA has declared a MAYDAY.
Pilots union sends out a ‘Mayday’ distress call amidst tsunami of job cuts.Release date: 01/05/2020The British Airline Pilots Association has issued a ‘Mayday’ distress call for the aviation industry as Ryanair becomes the latest airline to announce potential job cuts and predictions of more to come. The announcement that 3000 jobs are on the line at Ryanair comes just days after British Airways announced it is also planning 12,000 redundancies. The pilots’ union says enforced travel restrictions as a result of coronavirus are having a devastating impact on aviation and it is an emergency the Government can no longer ignore. Before COVID-19 hit the UK aviation brought at least £22 billion to the UK economy, along with over 230,000 jobs. Airlines contribute enormously to the vibrancy of the UK economy bringing a direct contribution to GDP of £5.2 billion and an overall contribution of £10.9 billion, when the effects of the supply chain and workforce are added. BALPA is calling for the Government to deliver its package of support to help our airlines though this crisis and protect the multitude of other industries that are indirectly reliant on aviation. The Government must recognise that global trade and economic recovery will be severely impacted if our world leading aviation industry is allowed to falter, while its competitors are propped up by their governments. BALPA General Secretary Brian Strutton said: “Before coronavirus the UK aviation industry was world leading. But now aviation workers are facing a Tsunami of job losses. “There is no more time for delay. The UK Government should follow the example set by others in Europe and around the world, recognise that aviation is vital to the UK economy and keep to the promise made by the Chancellor on 17 March to help airlines. “Without swift action, UK aviation will fall behind our global competitors and it simply won’t be there to aid recovery when the demand returns. “Aviation will suffer, and so too will the industries that rely on aviation indirectly and our ability to trade on a global scale. That can only be bad for the UK economy. “Around the world we are seeing other governments back their airlines and this will distort the global market place and leave the UK floundering. “The Government should step in to preserve the future of our national airline industry and work with unions and airlines to prevent the loss of the tens of thousands of jobs that are on the line. “With full Brexit looming at the end of this year it would be a disaster.” |
Originally Posted by HZ123
(Post 10769530)
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
An adult discussion, exploring options such as unpaid leave/sabbaticals, temporary pay cuts, part time working etc would have been a good starting point, rather than pulling out a grenade straight away. |
BALPA can, through the individual CCs, urge all union members (regardless of airline) to align with a common goal. That wouldn't be secondary action but probably wouldn't be realistic in any case.
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Originally Posted by HZ123
(Post 10769530)
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
^^^^^^^ Agree with this. |
I am retired from BA. I feel for everybody in the aviation world facing massive uncertainty and potentially redundancy.
Assume the company either take loans or government help to keep everybody employed. How does that work given the consensus seems to be it will be a year or more before the aviation industry recovers and the scale of the recovery itself is open to debate? The cost of maintaining everybody in full employment is just not viable for more than a few months. WW has been referred to as a psychopath. He probably has high psycopathic traits but then that is what makes effective leaders. People with high psychopathic traits can make decisions based purely on facts and logic with emotion not playing the slightest part in decision making. He will not make a decisions because it would be nice to keep everybody employed but will make decisions which ensure IAG/BA survives and is as fit as can be to deal with this worldwide disaster. It doesn't alter the fact that advantage is being taken of the situation to address the legacy issues which have been a rope around BA's neck for years. This is not the time or place to argue about those issues but the unions have defended them for years. The opportunity is now seen to take an axe to them. The above is not any sort of defence but an observation from my knowledge and experience of BA and WW. Good luck to everybody facing such an uncertain and troubling future. |
Employees often fail to grasp that the CEO has a list of priorities; The first is that 'The company must still be in business when the sun rises tomorrow.'.
The second is the stock-price Third; The stock-holders. Employees don't even come within the top 20. All the 'management-speak' about the employees being the company's greatest asset etc is pure BS.. In the eyes of a CEO, employees are a costly necessity, nothing more. |
Just a point. Psychopaths making auto effective leaders is old codswallop. There do happen to be psychopaths in leadership positions but that is through their self desire. It doesn’t infer in reverse their effectiveness
Interpersonal: They’re manipulative, deceitful, and/or narcissistic. Affective: They lack remorse, are callous, and may take pleasure in hurting others. Lifestyle: They’re impulsive, may use illegal substances, and may have disregard for the consequences of their actions. Antisocial: They are physically aggressive and may have a history of or tendency toward criminal behavior. sorry massive thread drift... |
Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10768122)
...
I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead. |
Originally Posted by HZ123
(Post 10769530)
There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10769650)
In the future if I was going to chose which airline ticket to buy, I would far rather pay to fly on an airline where the pilots had done everything to keep the airline in business and as many pilot employed as possible. Auf Wiedersehen.
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Originally Posted by The Foss
(Post 10769183)
Is that even legal? Making people redundant then rehiring them to do the same job with a completely different contract?
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Originally Posted by MungoP
(Post 10769642)
Employees often fail to grasp that the CEO has a list of priorities; The first is that 'The company must still be in business when the sun rises tomorrow.'.
The second is the stock-price Third; The stock-holders. Employees don't even come within the top 20. |
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