Current situation?
 

Good morning everyone.

does anyone have an update on what is going on at BA moving into summer ?

Increased flights to Portugal.... Not much else.

Definitely a change afoot for July, shorthaul bid packs published at the moment have full lines of work and a CAP of 100. Busy by any standard.
Admittedly there may still be some furlough diluting the operation but almost all destinations seem to be in play.

Shapps has made his intentions quite clear today.......he genuinely hates us.

How are things going through summer and now into the tail end with winter coming up?

Any news as to when your colleagues that were voted out of the company are looking to return?

Not soon enough :)

I have heard the CRS pool should be empty around Sept 2022. From then I would expect the remaining PRP pilots (those who didn’t take the LGW offering, or move on past BA) to begin to be brought back into the fold over the following 6 months or so.

How do you feel “voted out”? Do you believe you would have kept your job if the July 2020 ballot result was No? Genuine question.

Good, only 9 months to a year until we can start earning above minimum wage and for the most part, begin to lay off the 100’s of thousands of pounds worth of loans. I would imagine this would reduce the stress for the majority.

I’d suggest it’s probably the vote… whereby pilots were voted out of the company to protect T&C’s of the senior pilots.

I would imagine so. 250 odd out of 4500 odd. 1 out of every 5, 20% chance, rather than the 100% chance of redundancy I was given. Considering most of the junior pilots are ‘cheaper’ and not on the jumbo (the redundant fleet) I’d have fancied my chances.

What do I know though. I’m a worthless MSL bottom feeder…

As I understand pilot T&Cs were never on the table. We weren’t choosing between saving jobs and keeping senior pay scales. The company made it very clear it was about the headcount, not about the paycheque size. There was no mention of firing the pilots in reverse seniority, and even I wouldn’t have supported that (not exactly senior myself, north of 4000MSL).

Don’t forget BA’s opener was 1255 jobs, which while never discussed in detail, I would have imagined to include all of 747, LGW fleets plus chopping a large % off the bottom of both LHS and RHS of 777, 380 and Airbus. This would have forced the line much further up the MSL than the point at which it finally rested, plus included hundreds more from further up. (I did the numbers at the time and any way you cut it, the line went way further up from the bottom of the MSL)

I’m no BALPA fanboy, but I do think they did a solid job saving as many as they could under very trying circumstances. My only regret is that they couldn’t make the size of the CRS 550, which I believe the pilot body would have done in a heartbeat.

Evidently we see things pretty differently. I hope you and the rest of the PRP are welcomed back as quick as possible.

Unfortunately certain managers with an axe to grind with the pilots made it quite clear from the outset of negotiations that zero headcount loss was not an option. I am also no particular fan of BALPA but they probably got the best out of a pretty grim situation.

Whilst I respect your opinion, do you really think BA were planning on chopping 1255? Considering the size of operation being run now. I can't really see them going for that giving consideration to training capacity.

I personally think if BA sat down and said for example, 'one from the top for every one from the bottom' that balpa would have managed. Removing the cheapest labour is never a sustainable cost saving measure. Perhaps a political statement for the strikes, that the majority of the 250 redundant weren't even in the company when they took place? Maybe.

I personally don't see the corruption regarding certain members of the BACC as a 'solid job' but, what do I know. I wasn't a part of the negotiation.

Not as much as me. 18 months with a flight school loan and no meaningful employment (for a lot of us) has been difficult.

Oh they sure did a SOLIDLY excellent job. Especially if you're in the CRS receiving £80K - £100k a year for doing sweet FA. I'm not so sure the 249 redundant brigade would agree, mind.

BACC hammered the first nail in their own coffin with this ridiculous plan. None of the returning pilots with any self respect will sign up again and I'm sure that any new future pilots recruited will realise that the BACC will do nothing constructive for them - not in the early years anyway.

That said, I'm hearing Management are finally starting to put an end to this absolute nonsense that is the CRS.

would you prefer those pilots to have also been made redundant?

There you have it. A typical BA pilot response. What I WOULD have preferred, is for NOBODY to have been made redundant. I would have liked a bit of what the CRS got maybe?

What a stupid response 🤦 it isn’t one or the other. There were fairer ways for this all to have played out (that definitely didn’t include those at the top banking huge sums for doing… nothing!)

I think someone may have a shock coming if/when they (re)join BA and realise what a bunch of shysters they’re working for. I’d be interested to hear their opinions in a few years. My advice , (take it or leave it), is to realise what you have to look forward to if you want a career in UK aviation post Brexit. I’d consider myself lucky to have had a glimpse of the future with enough time and youth to do something about it. If you want to have a career in BA, maybe consider standing for election as a rep so that you can influence events come the next downturn. Alternatively, start brushing up those IT and programming skills and get yourself in a job that will pay well and never experience the kind of ups and downs that aviation suffers periodically.
Either way, good luck.

The assumption is that all that were made redundant are twenty-something year old's that can just 'brush up' on some 'coding skills' and find another job? and not any that have a mortgage or family to provide for? The delusion among some of the members here is incredible. If it's that easy and we only need to 'brush-up' why can't the senior do such in the same manner, rather than just the junior?

Oh dear …. Please don’t come back on PPrune complaining BA isn’t what you thought it would be in a few years. It is what it is. As are your colleagues . Just get on with it and realise the world doesn’t owe you a living. As I keep telling my kids , life ain’t fair. Best to crack on with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, take or leave my (well meant) advice.
If I had my time again, with the benefit of hindsight, etc, I would have gone into IT or finance . In BA and U.K. airlines you will earn every penny. Sadly , with the weak U.K. employment protections, you will always be regarded as a cost to be cut and the first out of the door come the next downturn. Do you want to work for an airline that does that via LIFO or one that gets rid of the longer serving ? The choice is yours. I’m sure there is an airline out there that does it differently ?

This whole post absoloutely stinks of entitlement. What do you mean take your advice? Do you not understand the investment that most of your 'colleagues' undertook to become a pilot? You say in hidsight you would have gone into IT or finance, well surely you would have taken VR and 'brushed up' on your own programming (or investment banking) skills, and saved a seat for someone who's ability to 'brush-up' is inferior to yours?

What about an airline who gets rid based on training failures and personal conduct (we know there's enough of those characters out there) rather than based on who was unlucky enough to join at a certain point, or lucky enough to be in a seat in a certain 'efficient' aircraft?

Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.

Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.

Well said. Some are struggling but will be happy to return to their passion for flying but there will be a visible divide for some in more ways than one.

well, apart from the fact BA would have shut half of Gatwick and all of the 747 fleet. Pretty sure that would have swept up a lot of that 249 anyway, and a lot more on top. Listen, it’s **** that redundancies couldn’t be avoided. I’d have happily paid more to save everyone and I’m sure so would everyone else. Unfortunately for the 249 it’s a seniority airline for everything; I know you don’t want to hear it but I’m going to say it anyway and if you choose to rejoin then you will be bloody glad when the time comes again to negotiate an s188 that you’ve got a god few years in. This was my 3rd S188 in BA in 23 years; the first one was September 11th and I thought I was out of the door so I know how awful it feels. Thankfully we managed to avoid any CR then; but COVID has been ona scale never seen before.
hopefully bluer skies ahead for all

Can’t really add any more to that sentiment!

Hearing rumours that the CRS is all coursed and there may be external recruitment before the start of summer for early autumn courses - can anyone at BA or in the PRP confirm?

Are the CRS and PRP pools already drained ? I’d be surprised. Genuine question.

Love the optimism, but I can clarify that will not be the case. CRS looking likely to be empty by the end of May with the PRP next in line to be drained. Please don’t forget that after than there’s another hold pool ‘PHP’ of those pilots and cadets who signed contracts that never started.

So recruitment for those ‘new-external’ DEPs is not just around the corner. Sorry.

I wish it was, that way I’d get my job back sooner!

What I meant was, they've exhausted all internal moves and the CRS and will begin to look to PRP and PHP, which are still external, come June July time. Not implying that there will be any 'proper' external recruitment for a while yet. I believe PRP is 130 through out of 270..... and that's for this New Gatport Wick outfit.

It is interesting to note that no other IAG airline made any compulsory pilot redundancies during covid. BA did and now they are having to wet lease…

Apologies, I must have misunderstood what you meant. I’m with you now and yes I believe that to be the case - it just depends on how many vacancies are left over once the CRS are absorbed into the summer 2022 fleet plan. Euroflyer required around 110 from the PRP, mainly FOs but some commands. We don’t get told the specific numbers sadly.

My bet is end of this year they will open up. I know 6 guys still waiting to go back to BA. Not far away but they say not before June for sure.

See how summer goes then open up September-ish to get externals started possibly next year.

This is all IMO and guess work.

Of course we are still not fully out of the woods yet, everyone treading carefully it seems.

I suspect there will be hell to pay amongst the SH FO community (prospectively around 40% at least of the pilots on the bus will have valid bids for LH this year) if the inevitable happens and PRP and external recruitment begins to slide back into those vacant LH seats. Any LH vacancies should be coursed with those internal bidders with valid bids. We all know the “2 course argument” will come into play as a means to justify it but why does this rule set only seem to be applicable to Airbus FOs? If that’s such a big deal then surely BA should be recruiting DEC to LH as well as that’s more cost efficient than running two courses…. But we all know DEC LH is a non starter with the BACC. Shame they wont protect the career aspirations of their own pilots on the more junior side of the coin though. I see mass resignations from BALPA from SH FOs shortly on the horizon.

Is there anywhere to see the T&C’s of the new gatwick start up?

how does it to compare to BA main and EasyJet?

it’s the best kept secret in aviation…why has it not been fully disclosed…

it would be great if someone could shed some light.

You sound surprised. In case you were sleeping under a rock in 2020 whilst 249 were laid off, It should come as NO surprise to you that the BACC has very little interest in the aspirations of junior pilots. They won't give a t*ss about your threats of mass membership resignations. What's needed is fundamental change.

No I wasn’t sleeping under a rock I was having difficulty sleeping as I was at risk myself but thanks for your needless condescension. Whilst I have every sympathy for those made redundant (and without going into the interminable discussion of the rights and wrongs of it) the fact remains that redundancy based on LIFO was no secret pertaining to employment with BA and in fact formed part of the Memorandum of Agreement attached to the contract that presumably you read before signing (how’s that for condescending?). The fact that Balpa tried their best to uphold contractual terms should not have come as a shock to you. What I was referring to was something quite different. I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process, pilots remaining on the P32L status list will benefit from increasing relative seniority instead of stagnating and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.

Sounds a lot more expensive to a company, or is the BACC going to fund this one too?

Plus, you’d be surprised at the number of former LH FO’s in the PRP.

MOA isn’t available with the contract FYI. I was only able to view it after joining, on docunet. Regardless I didn’t read anywhere being on a plastic plane makes you invulnerable from redundancy either…

If you’re on the 787 it seems a bit of a cheek to quote the MOA to your colleagues that were made redundant.

I presumed you meant at risk due to being junior and on the 787 (before the ‘high efficiency’ rule came out but fire the cheap shot at me, for sure.


I mean, that’s a bold assumption. I joined BA not knowing anyone there and hadn’t hear that redundancy was sorted by age/seniority, not much difference (and select fleets)

You don’t need to talk to me like a fool, I feel foolish enough leaving a safe job that made no redundancies for what I thought was a safer gig at a decent outfit.

I think we’re at cross purposes to be honest. My comments regarding being aware that BA chopped from the bottom were primarily directed at those above who feel visceral bitterness at the BACC for negotiating them out of a job. I understand the bitterness at losing the job I really do, I’ve been there and bought the T Shirt (admittedly in a situation not remotely as bad as Covid), but the bitterness and anger should not be directed at the BACC it should be directed at the government (and not just ours) for abandoning almost every part of the pre-existing pandemic management strategies and ignoring the WHO’s existing advice on pandemic management by imposing absolutely useless and ineffective populist travel bans.

I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).

Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”

I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.

I mean I feel bitter at the utter nepotism and lack of integrity from the BACC. As I said. I left a firm that made 0 redundancy (not easy but similar) thinking that this was going to be a safe job. Even going back, I know that when it comes to it. I’m the 1st to be thrown under the bus (again)….

I mean I’m struggling to sympathise with the ‘I dodged redundancy by a few places, now I want the seat I want, potentially at the disadvantage to my (ex) colleagues who in a lot of cases haven’t earned any money (or very little) in the last 2 years.

Some of us who are at the top of the PRP now face a new 7 (or8) year freeze before looking at long haul if we return on the a320, delaying a long haul move 10 years from where it was expected. So as I said, I wouldn’t come here seeking sympathy.