VR is not being offered: why are we even discussing it?

Similarly, sifsu, if one of us went on an oil workers website to tell a group of workers facing redundancy that “life is a bitch” he’d be told in short order where to shove it!

What is greedy and selfish about putting your kids through Uni and caring for elderly parents?
Very few pilots can afford to retire comfortably at 55

Bringing a ten year old plus (or more like 16 year old?) situation into this discussion is irrelevant. (I suspect that Fly747 hopes that he never flew with you.) Pensions are very, very different now.
Done. And I will be encouraging others.

Not only that but who’s going to want to take the chance of being junior in either seat? It impacts fleet moves too. Lots of consequences here (unintended or otherwise).

Currently you need to be more senior to get an internal RHS move to the 777 than you do to take a reasonably middle of seniority LHS on the 'bus out of Heathrow!
Progressive degradation of lifestyle on SH has led to many pilots taking lifestyle decisions and going part time whilst remaining RHS on a LH fleet.

So, yes, there are an awful lot of Captains who are much more junior than SFO's.

Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.

Anyone able to share the letter?

Wow, it does look like the company does want to make folks redundant out of seniority order based on 'factors' such as 'operational needs, the anticipated flying programme, skills (including type rating), and, if required, an assessment process'.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....625b6ed530.jpg

Wonder what they mean by an 'assessment process'. A 'you bet your licence' sim check?

I know this is an unpalatable thing to discuss, but we have to consider the environmental aspect of this. Of course it's terrible for everyone who will lose a job, and that may bring much hardship, but the continual talk of the aviation industry 'bouncing back' and perhaps getting sizeable government support is to decry totally the awful environmental mess we were already in, and continue to be in. Aviation as it was 6 weeks ago is absolutely not sustainable environmentally, anymore than it now is economically. We need to face up to this.

Another April 28 BA letter reported in the media.

I think the proposed assessment process will only be when they have identified the fleets and seats in “surplus”. At a rough guess that process will be when be a selection matrix will come into play - which may or may not include LIFO or weighted LIFO - that hasn’t exactly been spelled out at this point. As you say, they can hardly make you go into the Sim to see if you can perform well enough to keep your job.

I'll bite because I have nothing better to be doing during quarantine. It's widely accepted in the industry that we must do everything we can to reduce our environmental impact. It's even more widely reported in the media, and shouted loudly from the rooftops by every social media user, how bad aviation is for the environment. The issue is, it gets a disproportionate amount of coverage and hate, for the actualimpact it has on the environment.

Of global CO2 emissions, aviation counts for just 2%.

Road transport is many many times worse (and increasing at a higher rate than aviation), shipping is about as much, too. Transportation accounts for roughly 15% of global CO2, and Aviation is one of the smallest parts of the transportation group - as I say road transport being considerably worse.

Why am I saying all of this?

Yes, I accept aircraft pollute. But I don't accept the hysteria associated with flying, because it's popular to flight shame, if people also don't get hysterical about all the other contributors. The simple fact is the large majority of transportation pollutions (road) can be eliminated by using electric power from a green source. The same can be done for most of the other contributing sectors (energy). It cannot be done for aircraft and likely wont in our lifetimes.

How about we stop the hysteria surrounding Aviation and actually do our own research before posting all over social media how bad flying is.

I kept my head down through at least two waves of redundancies in the 90s, and finally went after 9/11 with a pretty generous package that included an enhanced 4 weeks per year, uncapped, plus all the statutory and contractual stuff. I had 15 years.

To be clear, the current 'statutory' is 1.5 weeks per full year (over age 40), capped @ £538 per week, and capped at 12 years.:{

I am now working elsewhere am about to leave on statutory plus enhancement of just 1 extra week for every 3 years.

Times they are a-changing indeed.

Yes they can... and make sure nobody has the cheat sheet for a change. They can fail as many as they need that way.

Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries. Two of your points stick out to me:
1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry
2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time

If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.

So I stand by my point: sadly, very sadly, aviation cannot return to business as usual. And that is very apposite to this discussion.

I also concur with the view that you are deliberately trying to be provocative on a thread being avidly followed by desperately worried BA pilots. Pilots who if they lose their current jobs will lose their careers not to mention the financial loss of their massive self funded training costs.


But I too will bite....

2% is astonishing considering the huge amount of vitriol it attracts from the likes of you. Go away and focus on something that will make a real difference.

If aviation were eliminated in one go, the planet will not notice. Indeed Indian industry would replace it within a month. The point being made though, as you well know, is that there are practical alternatives to other forms of more polluting transportation. There is not for aviation, yet.


Now, please, go away. This is a pilots forum, not for self styled climate activists.

Notwithstanding your incredible (disgusting?) lack of empathy for a whole host of real life people here about to lose their jobs and not have a replacement to go to, one assumes you only get a sailboat when you go back to Guernsey? I thought not.

Good luck to all of you at BA; hopefully CR can be avoided where possible.

Sorry to raise hackles folk. I realise this isn’t the place or audience for this. I’ll shall retire gracefully to the spotters balcony. I genuinely wish the best to everyone who will be affected by this

Many thanks for the apology, much appreciated but not necessary. Times are hard, feelings run high and then these parasites want more and more in this dreadful situation.
Stay safe everyone and good luck to you all.
MP

This is doing the rounds, make of it what you will but I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

This arrived from a friend this evening, it’s brilliant and she wants it to go viral, it pretty much says it all. Worth getting out there, send it to your other halves, friends, family, everyone. Perhaps the press will pick it up:

“My husband is a senior British Airways captain with over 30 loyal, devoted years of service with the airline. Middle class, solidly Home Counties, and precisely the person whose gentle tones you long to hear upon boarding a British Airways aircraft at the end of an arduous business trip in some moth-eaten corner of the world.

As soon as his mellow, Radio 2 voice, and his “Good evening and ladies and gentlemen “ welcome aboard announcement comes across the PA system, you feel safe and warm, cocooned in the knowledge that for the next however many hours, you are secure in the hands of a consummate professional and his crew.

Your subconscious immediately tries to picture him: a man in his late forties or early fifties, who, at the end of the flight, will no doubt fire up his trusty Volvo estate and drive home to his wife, 2.4 children, and ageing labrador or golden retriever. You might even meet him for a pint in the village local that evening.

You recline into your premium cabin seat, order a G&T, and in your head at least, you’re already back in Blighty as the careworn palm trees whip past your window and the plane rolls along the runway on its takeoff path. That’s my old man, the quintessential BA skipper.

Slice him in half, and you’ll discover the BA logo running through him like a stick of Brighton rock.
I cannot begin to list how many times he has gone above and beyond for his colleagues, passengers and employer.

Always the first to board, and the last to disembark, regardless of how exhausted he might be.

A passenger in need of assistance? He’s there like a shot.

A late wheelchair on arrival back at base? He’ll send everyone home and stay with the passenger until one eventually turns up, which these days can sometimes be an hour or more, not the ideal conclusion to a long night flight.

Crew member taken ill down route? He’ll accompany them to hospital and keep in regular contact until he’s satisfied that they’re ok and all relevant parties have been notified.

Duty. Honour. Responsibility. Decency. Solid British Airways characteristics, or at least they used to be.

BA is his life, and in spite of me telling him for years that his spaniel-like fidelity would always go unrecognised (how right I was), he has stubbornly put his unswerving duty to “The Company” ahead of any other commitments to family or friends.

Now we fear the worst, and fully expect that Messrs Walsh and Cruz will stab him in the back in grateful recognition of his many years of blind loyalty.

COVID-19 is manna from heaven for IAG and the BA board: an opportunity for the company to divest itself of those employees who still enjoy the relative luxury of a half-decent contract and working conditions.

Make no mistake. Henceforth, ALL British Airways employees will be working on minimum salary contracts, with little job security and the cheapest and worst working conditions legally allowable.

“Don’t like it, Captain X? Shove off and we’ll have you replaced within a month...”

Fills one with pride to Fly the Flag, does it not?

BA has the cash reserves to come to a better and infinitely more humane solution than to sack 12,000 employees who would, I am in no doubt, be prepared to work for a reduced salary, thereby reducing costs and meeting the shortfall by sharing out the workload.

The snag with that plan, however, is that IAG, WIllie Walsh and Alex Cruz would lose this never-to-be-repeated-once-in-a-lifetime opportunity which offers them the chance to get rid of their more expensive employees under the cover of crisis.

It’s a gift horse not to be ignored.

Equally, for BA to accept a very cheap government loan would open the door for Virgin, it’s most bitter of rivals, to do the same, thereby giving it the opportunity to find possible salvation.

Walsh and Cruz have therefore concluded that, rather than give their UK opponents any chance of survival, it is preferable to throw their most loyal people to the wolves, and then replace them in a few years with far cheaper labour.

Two birds with one stone. Job done. Management bonuses and Veuve Clique all round.

And there, in a nutshell, is the brutal reality of the “we’ll come out of this a better society”, post-COVID world.

Gone are the gentlemanly days of Lords King and Marshall, who took it upon themselves to actually give a damn about their employees, and who, in return, were admired and respected by the workforce.

Today it is the Wolves of Harmondsworth in charge; they have scented blood and are going in for the kill.

Far from emerging from COVID into a kinder, more understanding place, we will discover that the vultures and hyenas who run our biggest companies will use today’s climate to slice, dice, and butcher their best people in the manner of the most brutal Wuhan wet market.

If you thought things became cutthroat after 2008-9, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Bottom dollar business, to hell with humanity, and let’s screw whoever we can, (as we have for many years), only now, we have the perfect excuse.

Morals? Decency? Respect?

Only if there’s a profit to be made.

I leave it to you to decide whether that is a reality which you wish to inhabit.

Or a flag you wish to fly.

We’ll take more care of you? Judge for yourself.”

No wonder that Captain spent 30 years devoting his life to BA, the alternative would be staying at home with that wordsmith.. :cool: joking! Don't send the fun police after me... are IAG being cut-throat and extremely cruel? Yes. Is anyone outside of BA surprised? You certainly shouldn't be. My best wishes to all at BA and particularly to BALPA, they have a hell of a fight on their hands but now is not the time to waver, they are not just fighting for the pilots now, but for their own survival. If BA get away with this after the whimpering end to the strikes last year, Balpa will be dead and buried, and that is not good for any of us.

I know this is mainly pilot focussed...

But target reduction of over 4.500 from Cabin Services... Over a third of the CC workforce.

:bored:

It is sadly the same story across the airline. Almost a thousand engineering jobs targeted, 120 LAEs earmarked for redundancy, no VS, no deals, If you don't like it you will be sacked and offered a new contract with hugely inferior t & cs. No one has even mentioned the new pension scheme yet. I'm just waiting for them to renage on that 'agreement' too.

I understand the need to make savings when losses are forecast but this opportunist swipe at long standing contractual agreements is sickening.

If BA mamangement read this, please tell me how the hell you sleep at night, or look at yourself in the mirror without loathing?

My thoughts and prayers to all employees of BA. Here in HK (CX) we are shortly expecting a similar attack. Very troubling days for our profession. Probably will never be the same again.

I wish you all the best- but just as a matter of interest, how much money has BA Pilots contributed to BALPA over the last 25 years. And do you think you are getting value for money !

No!
 

Even before this crisis the answer was a resounding no. But they’re the only game in town, sadly. Which is why so many of us have remained members through gritted teeth.

Having just read BALPAs response to BA and in particular the signatory at the bottom, I am convinced this will be their biggest debacle to date. Despite stiff competition from previous cock-ups!

i couldn’t be more depressed.

This is a serious time for us all but your first sentence has really cheered me up!
Thank you!
Edited to add, She’s wrong about Lord King. Ruthless.

These TL;DR missives are a familiar part of the failing OGA (Once Great Airline) syndrome I'm afraid. Those Yalies at Pan Am would type similar prose by the pound on the old ALPA ASPEN message board three decades ago. :(

'Don't worry son, the government won't let Pan American go out of business.'

The second half of that "article" contained some truths but the first half..:ooh:....well at least I can confidently say it wasn't written by my wife.....:oh:

On that subject I must rush, I can hear her approaching. I was handed a list of jobs to do today and if she catches me on t'internet this early in the day I'll be finding out exactly what being sliced in half is like............:E

"Middle class, solidly Home Counties,"..don't make me laugh....

Mind you serious times and all that so the light relief was appreciated...

Uh o...

Definitely worth highlighting. Simply lovely:

We currently have 6382 Worldwide crew members of which:
• 531 are CSDs
• 1,060 are CSLs
• 4,791 are Main Crew
We currently have 1853 Eurofleet crew members of which:
• 11 are CSDs
• 466 are Pursers
• 1376 are Main Crew
We currently have 6027 Mixed Fleet crew members of which:
• 852 are CSMs
• 5,175 are Cabin Crew
We are proposing to remove the existing fleet structure and create a simple, single group of cabin crew, with a single set of terms and conditions and operating to higher levels of flexibility. Those terms will include temporary layoff or short-time arrangements and a harmonised pay and allowance structure. We are proposing that any new contracts would have new policies including on disciplinary and grievance procedures, performance and absence management which would be non-contractual. We are also proposing some changes to the Redeployment Agreement (see below). The single group of cabin crew would undertake both long-haul and short-haul flying to a flexible scheduling arrangement and at a competitive cost base. The internal organisation structure of this division would have a simplified supervisory structure rather than the current varying arrangements across three fleets. If we are unable to reach agreement on these proposals as part of the consultation process (and we were unable to implement these proposals by relying on the reasonable changes clause in an employee's contract) then we would propose to give all employees notice of dismissal by reason of redundancy and/or some other substantial reason, and offer a proportion of them employment under new terms and conditions (see below). To be clear, everyone who is employed in the Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet teams is impacted by this proposal. The numbers and categories of such employees are set out above.
Headcount reduction - In addition to the structural changes described above, we are proposing the following headcount reductions:
• Non-supervisory roles - As set out above, across Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet there are currently 12,402 employees carrying out non-supervisory functions. We are proposing to reduce this number by 3,811.
• Supervisory roles - As set out above, across Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet there are currently 1,860 employees carrying out supervisory functions. We are proposing to reduce this number by 889
We will consult with you regarding the process for implementing the headcount reduction, but in principle we would propose to put all employees at risk of redundancy (or at risk of dismissal due to some other substantial reason) and determine who to offer a role in the new structure based on factors such as operational needs, skills and performance.

My bold.

Thanks to those who have volunteered in the NHS btw. You've done British Airways proud. British Airways on the other hand...

You would be sympathetic to BA if they weren’t sitting on billions in cash, about to buy new aircraft and an airline in `Spain , as well as the free slots at lhr caused by other airlines collapsing. As it is, what they’re proposing is simply shocking. However, to the staff that have dealt with this management shower for years, it comes as no great surprise.

Just over 1bn euro loan gurantees announced today for Iberia and Vueling. Could Willie be trying to force the UK gov’s hand?

https://otp.tools.investis.com/clien...newsid=1388986

The UK gov have proved time and time again they no interest in saving UK airlines. This is despite all the money that it’s employees pay in taxes each year.

In recent history I don't think HMG have ever shown any major interest in saving or protecting any strategic industry ... For reasons I cannot fathom :oh: they seem to have bought into a version of the free market that is so laissez faire/devil take the hindmost that it can even make our American cousins look like socialists.

I reckon some MPs and Ministers might finally notice something has changed when they get lobbied by their mates when they finally realise they cannot get to Grand Cayman direct from London anymore....

Ooooh quick, back to work

The cheap loan is available to BA regardless of whether the government is interested in bailing out airlines or not. The fact that it's not been applied for suggests that (1) it's considerably more expensive to make people redundant in Spain and (2) that this is an opportunity being seized to deal with terms and conditions at the company once and for all.

Haven't they provided loans to Wizz and Easy already? The loan to IB and Vueling just shows that they're not above taking loans anymore. Time for the UK gov to start asking questions to the IAG board.

Good point.
It is the job role that is redundant, not the individual. Of course, I'm sure BA's HR department is working overtime to discover a legal loophole that will allow them to redifine each job role.

From a relative `nobody`, but someone who is passionate about flying and aviation (and a former pilot): my sincere best wishes to everybody out there, and their families, in these turbulent times. I pray that eventually there might be a happy outcome.