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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

Pickled 5th Jul 2020 17:26

"Legacy" only seems to apply to the cost of staff T&Cs and never to the massive historical benefits that were gained by airlines, such as slots.

armagnac2010 5th Jul 2020 17:48

Slots are asset.

Staff costs legacy.

Interestingly I feel more and more the need to read Karl Marx.

Maxfli 5th Jul 2020 19:10

BA Shareholding?

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns (Post 10829105)
I am a shareholder in BA.......

Not since 24th Jan 2011.

MrBernoulli 5th Jul 2020 19:32

Originally Posted by TURIN (Post 10829550)
Yes, sorry, I agree, I didn't take Wiggy's post as decisive either, I just didn't want to kick it off again.

I think you meant to write divisive, Turin, rather than "decisive"?

TURIN 6th Jul 2020 00:10

Mr Mainwaring
Well done Wilson, I was wondering when someone was going to spot that. :ok:

Dannyboy39 6th Jul 2020 02:09

Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10829401)
I'm going to sound unsympathetic but I have to say, somewhat wearily, after 30 plus years of witnessing the interaction between BALPA and the other Unions at BA that it needs to be made clear that what happens to other staff is in all honesty down to them, BA management and their Union(s!.

And with an attitude like this, you wonder why?

I look into this as a total outsider to all of this, but it is no different to other situations in the UK historically and abroad; the difference this time is that the economic situation is potentially so dire, the most damaging of cuts could be justified by most companies regardless of their own in-house credit line.

Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them. After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined and you can certainly see BAW doubling down on their other employment groups if their most “skilled” workers are secured. It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.

wiggy 6th Jul 2020 05:41

Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 (Post 10829998)
Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them.

After last years strike?

After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined
How exactly?

We don't know what the deal is yet, we don't know if the membership will accept it..If it has "metrics" that UNITE regard as favourable I'd say that actually aids the other unions - on the " me too" basis".

It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.
The various Cabin Crew contracts at BA, and how they evolved, is witness to that..no need to bring "the pilots" into that argument.

binsleepen 7th Jul 2020 20:18

Letter out from the BA chief pilot,

All pilots to take another 2 weeks unpaid leave before April ‘21. Redundancy based on performance, experience, conduct and qualifications.
Training pool for 300 pilots on reduced pay while awaiting retraining. And a return pool for those made redundant. Pilots on A350 and B787 look relatively safe, Pay frozen until 2023.

not much detail out yet

wiggy 7th Jul 2020 20:27

If I'm understanding BALPA e-mail correctly then to add to the above:

I'm finding the BALPA comment on pay confusing - Yes there's mention of a "Pay freeze" but also I'm reading comment on a "pay reduction" - they have figures in the e-mail showing pay reducing in August ramping down to effectively 85% of normal pay from Nov 2020 onwards. Pay increases again (staged) to 100% by Jan 2024.

Sadly it looks like, again worse case, a few pilots may well be made compulsory redundant..I'm not going to hazard a guess on numbers but hopefully it's looking like if that happens the numbers are nowhere near the original headline figures that were in the media a while back of over a thousand.

Actual exact numbers for the above will depend on the take up of Voluntary Redundancy (I'll almost certainly be one of those)and Part Time Working..

FlipFlapFlop 7th Jul 2020 20:52

Sorry, not from BA. So not LIFO ?

wiggy 7th Jul 2020 20:58

I suspect the BALPA line is that any selection criteria has to include ‘last in first out" as one of the main criterion and must be applied all pilots across the company ..so it sounds like modified LIFO or LIFO + for those not on the A350/B787.

Further to comments/my confusion about pay upthread - debate elsewhere has people talking about this as a 15% pay cut, which is how I read the BALPA e-mail.

The "pay freeze" comment seems to be being interpreted as the annual Pay points being frozen at their current level; so no movement in line with inflation/RPI/CPI or whatever, no movement in line with any previously agreed pay deals for the next three years - people will however still move up the frozen pay points.

In short: Continue to move up the frozen pay scales then worse case take a 15% reduction from that pay scale figure.

( Sorry for the continual re-editing - as binsleepin pointed out this was all released within the last hour or two so we are all trying to wade through and decipher the text of various e-mails)

GS-Alpha 7th Jul 2020 21:53

then worse case take a 15% reduction
Reading both emails, I suspect those pilots in the CRS pool will be taking a far greater than 15% pay cut. There is still a huge amount of detail to come though, so we are all just guessing and reading between the lines.

blimey 7th Jul 2020 22:30

CRS pool pay 'subsidised' by the collective hit.
PT % should have been imposed to keep everyone employed, rather than trying to persuade the sometimes less than altruistic to do the right thing.
Interesting few weeks ahead.
Good luck to you all, especially the bottom 450/225 (unless you're just starting/finishing your training on the 787350, in which case, despite only being in the company a few weeks, you're bullet proof!).

RexBanner 8th Jul 2020 00:56

Experience = Basically Length of Service in BA so LIFO. However 787 and A350 pilots are exempt from CR. 450 surplus pilots includes 100 on the A350/787 that BA are going to absorb the cost of due “operational requirements”. So 350 pilots CR, nobody has directly been made redundant by an A350 or 787 pilot being saved but there will be pilots leaving the business with greater seniority than some of those remaining, which leaves a very bad taste.

GS-Alpha 8th Jul 2020 05:06

I’ve heard BA are absorbing the cost of the junior A350 and 787 guys Rex, but has it actually been stated that they are coming off the 450 figure, or is that just your assumption? (I only ask, because why would they state a figure of 450 CR when it is actually 350? I was assuming the absorbed redundancies had already been taken into account, and 450 was the resulting figure).

thetimesreader84 8th Jul 2020 05:47

BA are going to rank everyone according to a criteria (length of service, performance, training qualifications & disciplinaries) and then draw a line in the sand - at the moment that line is 450 pilots up from the bottom. Any 787/350 pilots below that line will be kept on by BA, at BAs expense, anyone else will be made redundant. The line won’t move upwards on the basis of saving 787/350 pilots.

This is from a BALPA rep.

GS-Alpha 8th Jul 2020 06:12

Well that’s great news. Couple that with the apparently significant uptake of voluntary stuff and that headline 450 figure shrinks all the more.

FlipFlapFlop 8th Jul 2020 06:54

I suppose this is a lot better than originally postulated so I guess BALPA have done their job. It is still awful for those directly impacted.

Is there to be a return pool and have they said the basis for return ? Seniority order ? Would the CR return pool come second to 747 retraining pool ?
I assume vast majority of those impacted by CR will be First Officers. Will there be demotion of current captains to balance the numbers or will they retain rank and fly RHS?

wiggy 8th Jul 2020 08:44

Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop (Post 10831681)
...Is there to be a return pool ..?

According to the BALPA e-mail last night there's going to be a three-year right of return process for any pilots affected by compulsory redundancy..

Details yet to be announced.

IMHO I think given what we can see going on in the wider world/wider economy I think the Reps have done a very very good job, some seem to think otherwise..

777JRM 8th Jul 2020 09:11

So the leak to The Sun over a week ago, was exactly bang on! (300 in pool, 350 CR).

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