It is not about the money and nobody gives a :mad: how much they offer

They just don’t get it. Words and promises in job adverts are useless. It will be interesting to see the next actions coming up and the inevitable strike of course.

Pilots joining on 01st November will be paid +23% more = approx £2000pcm more........ than faithful ,hard working professional currently online captains.

I was a victim of this scenario some years ago. I had a direct contract, a colleague had exactly th see eroded contract at the same base. He received, unwritten, extra benefits and expenses. Under EU law I was considered to be treated 'less favourably'. Employed on the same contract to perform the same duties, but for different recompense. Illegal.

The “employment relationship” has been legally tested many times in the EU:

“United Kingdom – A classic test for the existence of an employment relationship involves an assessment of the extent to which the person engaging the worker exercises, or has the right to exercise, control over the worker (see Ready Mixed Concrete (South East) Ltd v. Minister of Pensions and National Insurance [1968] 2QB 497, MacKenna J at p.515; Nethermere (St.Neots) Ltd v. Gardiner [1984] ICR 612, Stephenson LJ, p.623). The changing nature of control in many employment relationships, from ‘how to’ to ‘what to’ (see Viscount Simmonds in Mersey Docks & Harbour Board v. Coggins & Griffiths Ltd [1947] AC 1,12), has blurred the distinction between the extent of control exercised in employment and self employment relationships, and thus diminished the role of the control test in distinguishing between the two. However, it still plays an important role, and in the 1995 Court of Appeal case of Lane v. Shire Roofing ([1995] IRLR 493, Henry LJ indicated (at 495) that the existence of an employment relationship is determined by the answers to the following questions: ‘who lays down what is to be done, the way in which it is to be done, the means by which it is to be done and the time when it is done?” (Page 40) –

Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe- Link:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

Difficult to understand why Norwegian’s pilots pay union dues for representation to a service provider agency when the Norwegian airline is their “real employer”. Norwegian's US based LH cabin crew challenged their status and won a legal ruling the airline is their employer. Ryanair pilots can do the same - but will they?

Ahhh the usual FR spin. The key 'word' being 2017.

To employ 2 people doing the same job but on different pay is not illegal, unless the difference can be proved to be discriminatory and based on sample sex, race, age, religion a.s.o.

It is quite the opposite than same pay in most jobs. People are paid differently often based on educational background, experience, circumstances, preferences and how good they are at their job. Unless the workplace is very heavily unionised, where pay often end up as a lowest common denominator and differences becomes based on non-personal qualities like how long you've been with the company. Good for some that feel week, are sick a lot, old, or want to prioritise extracurricular activities. Not so advantageous for the young of good health that are forward, organized and ambitious.

If your plan is to work as a donkey for a few years to get up and above gaining quick promotions, then the union is not your friend. If you want to wait years while other and in your mind less motivated colleagues becomes fo / captain / training captain / base captain based only on length of service and the date they joined, and you want to stay with the same company and type untill your retirement, then the story might be different. But remember even then you are depending on the company thriving. A quick back of the hand calculation might say that the company can afford your groups rise, but what about the 12000 others that will also want a piece of the cake.

'It said that Ryanair pilots wishing to discuss or improve their pay or conditions can do so at any time using the established collective bargaining process through individual base ERCs'.

My understanding of the message from RYR to its pilots is as follows:

We won’t meet any union group, because we have a
long established collective bargaining structure at
each base which has been in place for 25 years. You
may recall that the Pilot Unions challenged our Base
ERC structure back in 2007 and failed. The Supreme
Court ruled that the long-established ERC structure
was an acceptable and lawful forum for Ryanair Pilots
to collectively negotiate with the airline.

Where is the negotiation?
Some terms have been placed in front of the ERC which had no input from the ERC's ,nil ,nada ......other than reading them I suppose.

'These agreements can only be changed by
agreement between Ryanair and your base ERC’s.
There is no other mechanism'.

'We will not enter into writing, or meetings,
with competitor airline pilots/unions, or whatever
they call themselves this week (RPG/REPA/EERC??)
whose sole aim is to prevent you from accessing a big
pay increase next month, through the existing ERC
structure'.

'We also welcome a considerable inflow of pilots
from Monarch, Air Berlin and Alitalia, all of whom
are in bankruptcy, and they will be joining Ryanair on
these significantly higher salaries at your bases from
November onwards'

'If there is no agreement at your base to vary
the existing base agreements, then we will still offer
these improved pay and conditions to all new direct
entry recruits from 1 Nov as we intend to make Ryanair
pilots the best paid B737 operators in the LoCo sector
in Europe'.

'The only way to ensure that your base shares
in this upside – from November – is to support your
ERC’s reaching agreement over the next 3 weeks. If
this doesn’t happen then these pay increases may be
delayed until December, or next year, or not delivered
at all'.

'If Pilots continue to be misled by the false
promises of Unions/REPA/RPG/EERC then you will
delay or miss out on these big pay increases next
month, and you will simply remain on your existing
base agreement until they expire between 2020 and
2022'
:mad:, the above diatribe is the most severely threatening letter from an employer I have ever read.
It boggles the mind that they can be so blunt , its not even thinly veiled.
No wonder the RYR pilots are trying to bring the company to the table for discussion:D

Viking: Not so. I was a captain in a non-seniority airline. 2 captains employed at the same base, in the same year, (I the more experienced in total but both of us new on type), our contracts were copy/paste documents. Due to a special handshake deal done under the table the other guy received unjustified expenses to cover costs incurred by both of us that I had to pay myself. The company secretary identified my claim as 'employed equally but being treated less favourably'. The use of discrimination was not applicable and would have been inappropriate anyway. Under employment law it was 'less favourable'. We were 2 individuals who were totally replaceable and mirror images. I claimed and won.

EU Parliament pushes for greater scrutiny of airline working practices
 

Oh my god what have I just read. The FR management reached the new level of low.

This is so ridiculous, they are claiming that they have perfect working ERC system that’s been working for the past 25 years yet they’re proving that the whole thing is just one big joke :D

Looking forward for the upcoming strike :ok:

You get what you negotiate.

His revenue isn't hurt sufficiently.

B scales A+ scales or what ever...

To IR/HR as they are a hammer every problem therefore a nail...

The report from UK Reuters about EASA conducting an investigation into zero-hour contracts & safety aspects is nonsense. If pilots allow that to be the remit they have shot themselves in the foot. EASA will not find any correlation between the two. The zero-hour construction is one issue; the so-called self-employed is completely another. One might have safety issues, doubtful, the other is a legal question of true status. The two issues are not apples & apples. The priority is to sort out the self-employed issue. Once that is done the zero-hour issue will be swept up as well. ECA needs to change the focus of EASA and not allow AEA to control the target of the investigation. They know the answer before the process and then can claim they've done due diligence and proved all is OK.

I think Rat is onto it there.

Another interesting week.

A great Thanks to our American supporters.

Pilots of the world Unite! The time is now!

A French article is saying 110 pilots left this week Ryanair for greener pastures. More informations anyone?

I know atleast 4 and I don't know that many of the 4000 pilots. These are people who handed in their notice just before everything kicked off. It will be interesting to see how many go over the coming few months.

I'm going to take a gamble with comment that may be seen as diverging off-topic.

As I said to a colleague years ago, solidarity is sometimes a bit less than you expect.

How did you know about that, he asked, realising what I was referring back to, which I'd told some of them a few weeks earlier.

One of the great strikes of the Thatcher era, about crushing the power of the unions according to some, or scabs crossing picket lines according to others, was broken by the employer signing a closed-shop deal with a different union.

It is interesting reading the first few pages of this thread. You get a clear picture of the Company and it's antics. Divide and rule, smoke and mirrors and other thoughts come to mind. How quickly Weather, ATC strikes etc changed to pilot holidays when the wheels publicly came off.

It seems simple to me.

Ryanair either pay more than the competition with no gimmicks or the exodus continues.

I am betting that next summer aircraft will be parked.

You are on!
Not a betting man, but the question is how many.
Unless a dramatically better , water proof , deal is on.
Here is my 2 cents,,,

If I was in the wetlease business I would crew up, HEY, wait were did they all go! ARGHH

If they really want to attract a few more pilots then they've surely got to start advertising strongly for direct entry captains NON type rated & lower the requirements slightly, oh and pay for the type rating with a bond. Will this ever happen? I guess it depends how desperate they get.

Interestingly you don't have to pay for the TR course if Non TR DEC. You are bonded though.

Anyway the Brazilians are on their way!:ok: