Ryanair say it will not meet with body representing pilots
 

It is not like they have the choice.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1009/91...yanair-pilots/

Indeed i don't have any first hand experience with these things but wouldn't be that surprising if they hit the ball back on the court once more saying more or less the same things until they know the guys have a good hand... It's unity that's the key for pilots, that's for sure at least...

Meanwhile, how long until FR switch to the winter schedule and alleviate the issue? Will the crews snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

1st of November, but it doesn't matter, the problem isn't going anywhere.

It must be the most :mad: airline in the world!!! Just read the story about the 2 pilots beeing stuck in a camping site... felt sorry for them! North Korea here I come. Ryanair is the cancer of aviation in Europe and is greatly responsible for the low and longtime erroding terms and conditions. A pilot with respect for himself should not consider taking a job for them now, let MOL boil in his fat for a while and the terms will go up eventually.

And despite all this :mad: the crews and pilots are still working professionally, safely and doing a great job for their passengers. Well done to all those in the flying harps, despite everything a certain Irishman with a loud mouth has done to you.

Can’t read the German article above.... any other links to it?

In response to the concerns raised in this article:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1009/91...yanair-pilots/

Ryanair’s directly employed pilots have specific “right to organize” protections within Europe via Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, local labor laws (UK, Trade Union Act 1992) and International Labor Organization conventions (every country Ryanair operates in Europe is a signatory):

"ILO 98 - Right to organize and collective bargaining.
This fundamental convention provides that workers shall enjoy adequate protection against acts of anti-union discrimination, including requirements that a worker not join a union or relinquish trade union membership for employment, or dismissal of a worker because of union membership or participation in union activities. Workers' and employers' organizations shall enjoy adequate protection against any acts of interference by each other, in particular the establishment of workers' organizations under the domination of employers or employers' organizations, or the support of workers' organizations by financial or other means, with the object of placing such organizations under the control of employers or employers' organizations. The convention also enshrines the right to collective bargaining.”

http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/...--en/index.htm

The significance of the recent ECJ ruling on the application of EC 44/2001 and its relevance to labor rights and labor principles in their employment relationship with the airline, should not be overlooked (something Norwegian’s pilots do not have).

EC 44/2001: Section 5, Article 18, Jurisdiction over individual contracts of employment, provides directly employed Ryanair pilots with local labor law protection and oversight:

“Where an employee enters into an individual contract of employment with an employer who is not domiciled in a Member State but has a branch, agency or other establishment in one of the Member States, the employer shall, in disputes arising out of the operations of the branch, agency or establishment, be deemed to be domiciled in that Member State.”

It is understandable why contractors do not protest to management. However, in respect of those directly employed, either Ryanair is complying with local labor laws or pilots are not challenging unlawful abuses and disputes via the legislation available to them.

Hopefully, Ryanair's directly employed pilots are taking the lead to improve conditions for all.

Ryanair Pilots Win Support of Southwest Crews in Bid to Unionize
 

I read Unions are effectively labour cartels that damage economies and the travelling public.

Organised labour stopped children in coal mines, sadly unions forgot their roots and fell in with the same political interests of the other side. In most western economies the distinction is blurred.

The ability of organised labour to stop the advance of the corporate has been curtailed,certainly in many countries that was by design. The result being an erosion of purchasing power in many professions white and blue collar.

Is it any wonder that the gap between the 'Captains of industry' and everyone else is so large?

We the consumers do it to ourselves and make decisions that kill off indigenous industry and complain when it becomes our industry too: A viscous circle, difficult to get off.

Ryanair is simply a symptom of the broader malaise.

Henry Ford eloquently summed up the problem over 100 years ago when he said (I Paraphrase) if ultimately I don't pay my workers sufficient to buy one of my cars, eventually I have no business.

Unwinding this adversarial model is a huge undertaking and O'Leary will continue as will others until the revenue drop is substantial enough to oust him and his ilk.

And yet the evidence, rather than the propaganda that you read, is that it was the only major non-unionised airline that developed such a toxic employee/employer relationship that pilots just did what they were told "if you don't like it - leave", resulting in major damage to the travelling public (and the economy of income for the board).

Large organisations need a trusted interface between the employee and employer. Safety critical organisations also need to have trusted protections for the individuals involved in safety decisions.

Lessons yet to be learnt in some places.

PS Unions are (in this case) just the pilots acting as one. So I will re-write your statement to see if it makes more sense:

Hmmm.

Unions damage the travelling public? Strange statement.

I say it again, especially in the wake of Air Berlin & Monarch which are both strong union airlines: the unions did not make to company go bust; the management did. The same was true at Sabina (via Swissair). etc. etc. Unions want a long & prosperous career for their members. Managers want a quick buck bonus and move on. Pilots embark on a done company 35year career, hopefully. Find me any CEO/MD who can say that. RB at Virgin aside.

Thanks for the color there Bondi and i am sure you want the best for Ryanair pilots but when you say that it`s up to permanent to lead the way perhaps that`s true in a sense but it`s also important to point out that no one is left thinking that it is up to someone else to sort this out because everybody is in the same boat and contractors need to take part as well. If only permanent can vote they in turn need the support of contractors and vice versa on other issues. All need to participate to be able to reach a point where their goals can be achieved which should include the long term ability to negotiate with the company imho.

The moment pilots is acting as one is the moment everything else will fall into place.

Captain Sully speaks out against Ryanair!
 

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1577534/h...yanair-pilots/

Great to see this man speaking out against MOLs foolish assertion that piloting is easy! :ok:

I'd be surprised if the ruling of a SUPREME court could be appealed. That's kind of the point of it being supreme.

The only reason they lost in the supreme court is because no pilot gave direct evidence , other than that , it was a done deal . back to the labour court and give direct evidence and you will win your case .

Why did the Supreme court not ensure that all facts from both sides were presented before they could give a sound judgement? Surely they should have demanded representation from both sides.

Further; is it true that Storm's rates are effectively lower than BRK's and Blue Sky's lower again? In light of the increased offers to employees why do all the contractors not get together, form their own agency, resign their present one and then re-offer themselves as real contractors employed by their own agency on their own terms? Their own agency would take care of all national legal payments. They would also decide the T's & C's and rates. As they are >50% of the plot force they would have real non-union bargaining power. I'm sure all those a/c could not be grounded in retaliation.
I was dreaming, then woke up with a start, rather than a eureka moment.

One tried that with GTD few years ago. He quickly got kicked out of Ryanair ! Maybe he tried too early...