I am sorry to hear that larki but like others have said here the best is to convert the licence into a frozen ATPL and if possible do some uni or any job (if dont want to have another loan) and then wait until all this goes. When I finished my ATPL in 2004 there were not many jobs available in the airlines so my father suggested to do a flying instructor course and that was the best thing for me at that moment, I was able to find a job in a FTO and spent 3 years flying as a flight instructor, I also towed gliders.
Maybe general aviation and uni or a job at the same time could help and your son should be ready with his knowledge fresh when the airlines recruit again.

Al the best!

Sign of the times unfortunately, also the fact that “daddy” has made this comment says it all...

Very useful input:hmm:

I came on here primarily to warn others not to fall into this trap that covid created and also any suggestions how to deal with the licencing issue as to expiry of mpl, apart from two very kind answers, I did not expect sarcasm and downright rudeness from some others on here, I thought professional people would be above that but I was wrong !!! I will not be posting on here anymore as all I seem to get apart from a few genuine people is snide remarks.

Maybe he doesn’t know “Daddy” made the comment, maybe Daddy is trying to find out if there is any help he can offer his son who might be very distraught with what’s just happened to him and currently can’t think straight.

I would suggest as others have said, get it converted to a frozen ATPL. Instructor course then get a job teaching which would keep him current in flying and it is enjoyable, however the pay isn’t great and in the current climate jobs maybe few and far between. It’s nothing more than bad luck with the timing. Aviation is generally up and down and we have had unprecedented growth the past 10 years. Good luck and keep the head up.

Whilst there may be a pre-conceived idea of the sorts of people who attend an integrated course, and the way in which it is funded for many, the fact remains that before covid-19, the chances of getting a job with an airline (especially if you were on an MPL) were high, and the salary of such a job was typically significantly higher than a graduate job. Furthermore, with changes to UK tuition fees (ive made an assumption that the person who asked the question is in the UK...) mean that you would likely be better off financially going to an integrated school rather than Uni.

The fact "daddy" has asked is totally understandable. Is it inconceivable that a parent, wishing to help their son / daughter in any way they can, would turn to a forum such as this (which, lets be honest, doesn't attract nearly as many people of the younger generations)?

Not helpful at all, and quite inconsiderate given the situation.

I must be blind then, I don't see that. That was just an inconsiderate input.

I predict that 25% of cabin crew will be surplus to requirement. I think the loads on most flights will be less than 150 so 4 crew per sector will not be needed. There has been precedent set on redundancy and/or relocation in the past. As much as our pilots wont like it, it is essentially last in first out. Points heavily weighted for length of service other points for training qualifications and points deducted for disciplinary issues. Closures by base will not happen as many have transferred at the behest of the company. If bases are to be closed I expect you will have to take what given and it will be achieved in a manner that is cost neutral to the company.

It's 1 cabin crew for each 50 passenger seats installed if I remember well. So 4 attendants will still be needed even if there are only 10 passengers.

Indeed. Of course they could simply reduce seat numbers and thus reduce the required number of cabin crew. Seeing that there are quite a few Airbus A320 in Dresden to get six seats more, at considerate cost (180 to 186) for the last two years, that seems somewhat counterintuitive.

We've used seat blockers in the past which disable the seat entirely and can be used to reduce the number of required crew. For starters, the plan is not to use the middle seats so right away, that's 1/3rd of the seat capacity down. 156 seat A319 becomes 104. Block another 5 and you only need 2 crew.

How can you block the middle seat without blocking the window seat? The only way would be telling the pax they can't seat there however the seat is still there available so I doubt the authority will ease on the safety regulations for the sake of cost saving for the airlines.

You don’t, they fit perfectly into the middle seat and have cup holders. Access to the window seat is not restricted in any way.

I believe on the Airbus 319 / 320 you can't have less than 3 Cabin Crew even if under 100.

Sorry to hear. Welcome to the airline world. I have witnessed 9 11 and the financial crisis 2008 with a massive downturn, and it took many years until airlines were recruiting again. The severity of this current crisis you can multiply times 10.

The license is valid for one year and pretty useless without hours in type.
21 years and he is not even able to write this himself? At that stage, I was writing to all airlines on my own.

Good luck to your son, the first thing to start is to take responsibility on his own. If he remains strong and resilient, he will eventually find his way
into a flight deck. But this will not be an easy ride.

Larki

You're best talking to the organisations concerned directly. I would avoid this place and its army of armchair experts and doom spreaders that quite frankly know NOTHING! 10 years? Come off it. There is a well known cargo operator currently actively recruiting for 777 pilots.

Times are going to be tough but nobody knows how the landscape will look in a years time.

Hello Larki,

I'm very sorry to hear of your son's plight. But on the other thread I started 'career advice for pilots' on Rumours and News, I've speculated that anyone who hasn't been in a major/legacy carrier for 10 years, or a loco for at least 5 years, is pretty unlikely to ever step into a flight deck again. If we're looking at a 25% ball park reduction in flying traffic over the next 5-10 years, then I don't think my depressing assessment is far off. It's extremely sad, and I feel for all my colleagues.

For someone who's just come out of flight training like your son, it's 125k pounds down the swanny I'm afraid.

Your son needs to think fast and act on his feet to make a plan.

From my other thread

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I know what I'd be doing right now - buying up all the hairdressing/cutting equipment I can possibly get my grubby hands on. Setting up a business plan to strike as soon as the social distancing measures are relaxed and perhaps using, recruiting, or putting on retainer, 100s of hairdressers in the UK with a compelling business model. A national door to door service at a sensible price. Used reliable cars will be going cheap too to equip the fleet. Learn to cut hair in the mean time myself.

Go absolutely ballistic once the social distancing measures are relaxed. There's no way that the current number of hairdressers in the UK will even be able to keep up with even 25% of the demand they'll have in the first 3-6 months of recovery. There will be a massive backlog. Good luck trying to book in to get your barnet cut any time soon.

Then use the profits you've made from this venture, and the business experience gained to open more doors. Perhaps simultaneously get a degree in business or something even more left field like Engineering, with the profits you've just drummed up. And away you go.

But sadly, as I alluded to in the opening of this thread - anyone with less than 10 years flying at a major airline or 5 years at a loco probably won't ever see the inside of the flight deck again. It's very sad and I feel for all my colleagues.

Swallow that pill, act fast, and forget about the flying career.

I started flying in the 90s, went through the Asian Crisis, 9/11, SARS and the GFC of 2008... and this one will be an order of magnitude of 10 of all those previous inconveniences COMBINED. And my good friends who were in the wrong place at the wrong place had there careers set back 5-10 years even with those (now minor) hiccups in the road. This one............

As you’ve said by your own admission it’s pure speculation, and your figure of a 25% reduction for 10 years has been pulled completely from thin air.

As others have said Larki, the people on here will be able to give you little helpful advice. Talk with EasyJet and the training provider once this has all blown over a bit to see what options you have with licence conversion, and ask the CAA about length of validity. Unfortunately your son won’t be the only one in this boat.

Good luck

Now everyone knows how will situation on market look like but one month ago they didn't know this crisis was going to hit that severe.

Truth is that covid 19 caused much bigger impact on aviation industry and tourism in general comparing to any other crisis we had so far but no one can predict how long will it take until next recruitment.

I guess first airlines to start expanding or recruiting will be in Asia, but let's wait and see what will happen.

Anyway, you will always have airlines like Ryanair looking for young and 200h cadet so they can shape him in way they want than someone with 2000-3000h FO who will adopt harder to new procedures and airline policy...

And there lies the rub

I may be a failed airline pilot but whatever advice I have ever given has been irrelevant from the moment mum and pop turn up at the ’Flyer Live Show’ and listen to the 'Industry Insider’ or the 'Aviation Expert’

However I was around post 1992 (ERM), 2003 (9/11)* and again 2008 when again the market tanked due to the bankers. I’ve seen CABAIR come and go and go and i've known people to lay down 80 Grand on the Friday to the Pilot Training College only for them to go bust on the following Monday**. I can also relate to chemotheraphy and radiotheraphy and trying to make a living without a medical.

So to be honest your not warning us of anything. Who you need to warn are the young kids being suckered in by the marketing machine.The MPL is a lemon and you brought it.

What your lad does have going for him is youth and ATPL theory passes. Sadly the MPL isn’t worth much at the moment and I’m not a sure the industry needs another 200 hour fATPL holder either.

Any flying like glider towing is out of the question unless you have some gliding experience. So I would suggest adding an SEP rating to the MPL build some hours and then do a FI course. Then try an find some weekend work. When the market picks up attempt the CPL and IR skills test. Sadly the average 70 hour MPL holder can’t even do a balanced turn so you looking at a significant amount of cost if you went straight to the CPL or IR.

Just to show I do have some Integrity if you can track me down I’ll wave the examiner fee for the SEP skills test***. Perhaps you could ring your MPL provider and see if they will do the same?

* Not really I didn’t have a medical

* Believe it or not but 3 months later this person laid down another 100 grand for an MPL. Sadly they have just been made redundant but lucky they do now have an ATPL.

** You can thank the person that did this for me many years ago

The truth is no one knows where the industry will be be in 12 months’ time. We can take educated guesses but that’s all they are. Larki, I would go with those recommending you contact the relevant organisations directly although I would imagine at this stage, right now, they won’t have many answers.

If I were your son I would look to immediately find a job, any job, to get some money coming in. The priority is to put bread on the table, and if that means driving a Tesco delivery van around, so be it. That buys time, which is what you need in order to work out the next steps.

Your son has obviously had some bad luck (to put it mildly) but now is the time for him to show he has the resilience to get through this one way or the other. It’s bad times for sure, but we will all get through this. It’s not the end of the world !

If I have understood what operator you're talking about, you need to be fluent in German.

I did say that I would not post anymore because of juvenile and sarcastic remarks from a few people but I have to thank all the people that have given positive advice and I will relay this to my son who is stuck in lodgings at gatwick, he doesnt know about this but as a father who sees his sons dream collapsing I thought that I had to do something and try and be useful, once again many thanks and hoping no one else falls into this trap

Tell him to never give up. If this is his dream job, he will find his way into a flight deck.

As far as I understand, the MPL license is tailored for one operator. easyJet is considered to be one of the best training in the industry.
Keep networking and ties from the flight school. Keep current and up to date with the industry.
This will open him perhaps doors and opportunities to other airlines.
The market will pick up again, but nobody knows when this is going to be. One needs to be persistent, especially during these times.

All the best, and I wish him well.

This. Never give up. Took me nearly 4 years to get my first pilot job. In that gap, I had another 3 jobs.

Make sure he also stays current (medicals, ratings, knowledge).

Hi Larki,
like many others I’ve been in that uncomfortable situation of looking for a job during an aviation crisis... The advise worth taking right now is never give up! All other advises are worthless as all times, situations, and places are all different from each other and what got me out of the ditch won’t apply to your son... Nobody knows what will happen in a months time.... Unlike others, I appreciate the fact that a father holds his son’s hand trough a dark time but there is always light at the end of the tunnel however long that might be so don’t give up and don’t let your son give up...
best of luck!

Larki. I have read the comments on here following your post. Some make me ashamed to be an airline pilot. Whilst it is true this is a fickle and difficult career, full of highs and lows (I have worked for 4 airlines that have left me redundant and had to spend years in the middle east when there were no jobs at all for a low hours pilot in Europe). This is a bad time for your son but things will recover......ignore to doomsters and the plain ignorant/rude. I fully understand, as do most decent human beings, what you are feeling on behalf of your son at the moment and just stay close to eJ.

I'm also sorry to hear your situation.

If I were him, I'd be looking to transfer the MPL to a frozen ATPL, likely get some hours in by instructing, and applying for every Cadetship going. It will happen, it may sadly just be a while. Captain here, but I've just lost a job offer (but luckily hadn't handed in my notice yet), so fully understand your frustration..

Following qualification and before getting a job, I worked several jobs. It took about 2 years for me to find something, and I was training during 2001, so hopefully under worse circumstances than now.

The current situation is much worse than 2001. The whole world is into a recession now, and it's going to get worse, a lot worse before it starts to get better.
Thousands of unemployed pilots all over the world.

2 years in current circumstances is very optimistic, I believe it will be 3 - 4 years at least.

Time to get real. He’s got an MPL, this leaves him in possibly the worst of all situations when it comes to being a job hunting pilot today. Telling his father that it ‘will happen’, whilst very nice could be seen as being disingenuous. It probably ‘won’t happen’ without a significant further investment that will turn his son into a ‘real pilot’ that can fly other classes and types of aircraft. Even then the odds will be stacked against him just like everyone else. We all said this about the MPL when it was first introduced. FTO’s don’t give two hoots, they are focussed on the next batch of youngsters looking to buy the dream.

I have to agree - it will be several years before he will be picked up, if ever, if he doesn't stay current - which would be very expensive - likely to be good money after bad.

It's difficult to write off this size of investment, but most of us have lost this sort of sum at one time or other, especially recently. Airline flying ain't what it was anyway, and will be worse after c19. My advice would be to invest in training for a future proofed profession,eg IT. After a period of employment, there are some good government schemes which will provide and pay for this training

Thats the best advice anyone can give in this case. When I finished flighttraining there were hardly any jobs going around, so it took me about 4.5 years to get to the flightdeck. In the meantime I worked in factories, call centres, all sorts just to pay the interest on my loan. Eventually I got a job flying small aircraft around for a few summers and ended up with my first commercial job and now I’m at a big airline in the UK. This is a horrible time to be newly qualified, but with a little luck and perseverance eventually he will get there. All the best!

Having had a similar start in aviation as MANSNOTHOT and others above, I would add the importance of networking and trying to stay connected with the industry in some way, if that is possible. When there is a shortage of jobs someone who can give you the nod that X airline is recruiting is worth a 1000 speculative job applications. That was certainly my experience 25 years ago.

Just to add my 2c.

Don't give up! Hate to say it, but it's going to be a minimum of 2-3 years before the airlines will be recruiting again. In the mean time, try and keep current, network and try anything to get some hours.

This crises will eventually be forgotten, and the public will fly again. By this time, lots of pilots will have retired, moved to other professions, and lets be honest, who in their right mind is going to enter pilot training for the next few years? End result, after the carnage of the next few years, I think we're being set up for a large shortage in maybe 4-5 years. We were already experiencing one when this hit, and that was with schools throwing out hundreds of pilots. Don't misunderstand me, airlines are going to go lay pilots off (I most likely included), airlines are going to go under, and at the moment its horrible timing. But don't give up! And probably more important, don't be drawn in by the aviation sharks that will be swimming very soon trying to sell hours etc.

Larki. I do tend to agree that the MPL is not the best in these circumstances and most of us warned against this as opposed ATPL. Hence my earlier comment about staying close to Easy. I do not necessarily agree with the doom and gloom merchants that surface whenever **** happens. I am now an Easy captain and have serious concerns about the near future but I have been flying for 14 years and in that time had several setbacks that seemed terminal to my career at the time. There will be downsizing and some airlines will be gone. Some will not have the financial clout to survive. On the other hand many will survive and those will be looking to get back to high pax capacity as soon as they can. Easy, I would consider, are well placed to see out the storm and bounce back quickly. A lot will depend on a covid vaccine. If one does emerge this year the travelling public will be back and those airlines that have survived will be looking for capacity. So, in my view, pain now but the future is not as dark as some will have you believe. Just tell your son to be patient.

Pay a good accountant to ringfence all your assets and get your son to declare himself bankrupt. 5 years of pain and then a clean sheet.

Larki,

Try not to take too much notice of what's said on these forums. You have to remember, much like you, a lot of people on here are not pilots, or if they are, may not have in depth (if any) knowledge of airline recruitment.

It is a very unfortunate situation, however I think it's just a waiting game for the time being. There have been a lot of 'I've lived through 9/11 and 2008 and this is 10x worse' kind of chat. What we have to remember is that there wasn't a terrorist attack, People aren't scared of flying, airlines aren't having to change the way they operate to increase security. This is something completely different.

Some airlines will fold, some will survive, new airlines will pop up afterwards, seizing the opportunity of recovery. Things will be different, but it's anyone's guess what the recruitment situation will be like.

​​​

Larki, I was in a similar situation and the one thing I can say is that a instructor rating was not worth the investment. I did that and struggled like hell to find any flying. The problem was I was now a low hour pilot with a instructor rating and no experience. The experienced pilots who held instructor ratings flooded the market again and there were very very few opportunities if any. Just another x thousand pounds spent.

What worked for me was keeping myself current. I flew SEP to keep my hand in but more so to keep contacts. I had my type rating so I kept that valid. The people I knew kept me informed what was going on and I was slipped a few contacts. I say I got lucky but actually I was fortunate, I made my own luck. When I got offered a interview it was not even under the guise of an interview. The recruiter had no jobs but had a sim slot so offered to renew my rating. At this point we had been in contact for 15 months. When I arrived I was offered a base and told not to screw the sim up. The feedback I received when I asked why me was “I did not need pilots on Wednesday and on Thursday at 9am I was told we needed 30 ASAP, I though of you straight away and knew you were current and ready to go”. Keep current and believe that all these 1000’s of aircraft will not fly themselves.

Sorry that you received some of the comments you did. We are all feeling at risk and all pilots are the same, we are great to each other in the good times, but in the bad times it brings out the worst in us. I sit in what would probably be a “safe seat” but given the size of the crisis I do not believe I will have a job come October. Right now it’s more about protecting my career rather than worrying about my job right now.

As a father you need to help keep your sons chin up. Depression can easily set in and that just destroys your chances. He needs hope and he needs to know how much you are behind him. This is not his fault but he will feel he is failing and angry. He will get there with support of his friends and family.

Just to re-iterate what some others have said; all is not lost and your son is not the first to find himself in this position. I was also on a cadet scheme with a company who we're making redundancies upon the completion of my training. It took just under 3 years between finishing and getting my first flying job. The silver lining is when you do finally get there, you certainly appreciate it!

From my experience, my best advice is 'plate spinning'. Assume being a pilot is off the table and work out what you would like to do with your life. There is no reason why you cant keep yourself current / apply for flying jobs and pursue another profession. It will keep you sane, and if the worst should happen you're still not in a bad place. I was studying for financial qualifications; whilst to the bemusement of my fellow students studying ATPL theory in my lunch hour to keep current.

I spent a nearly 6 months moping around, applying for flying jobs that probably didnt even exist when I first 'graduated'. My best advice is to get out there and do something else. I think the most important attribute in anyone looking to become a pilot is perseverence. It might take a while; but the market will very quickly turn and if you keep pushing, you'll get there in the end.

Good luck!

(and as mentioned above, I'd pay little attention to the silly comments on here. A good proportion of the membership on here are not pilots, and just come on and spread nonsense)

Hey Bex88

Wondering what's changed your train of thought since the 18th April, wrt what you say above about being laid off by October?

ATB