PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Terms and Endearment (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment-38/)
-   -   Monarch Anyone? (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/486524-monarch-anyone.html)

HPbleed 18th Jul 2012 16:00

Haha the truth is out! :D

CEJM 18th Jul 2012 17:08

Let me understand this correctly. The owner of Monarch Airlines is the 546th richest ($2.3B) person on this planet. He made this money by running a multitude of different companies. And now the armchair idiots come out and say in a roundabout way that he doesnít know what he is doing? :ugh:

The gentleman above has run more businesses then any of you had hot meals. While doing this, he has seen several recessions and the effects of those on the individual businesses. Do you really believe that he would have invested in Monarch if he would think that Monarch would fold anytime soon? He has got some of the best financial advisers on his staff and if he would not have wanted Monarch to succeed he would have wound the company up at the beginning of the recession.

walterthesofty 18th Jul 2012 17:34

Now that is a pretty valid point i have to say...People dont become self made billionaires by chance

Craggenmore 18th Jul 2012 18:03

Do you really believe that he would have invested in Monarch if he would think that Monarch would fold anytime soon
Would Monarch already have folded if it's ownership had been different, say a banking conglomerate..?

The wealthy GB Airways owners pulled the plug but Branson still refuses to let his baby go.

HPbleed 18th Jul 2012 18:29

I beg you, don't come back.

pabloc 18th Jul 2012 20:24

Mr Bloggs,i better inform the family i'll be out of work by mid2013!!!!....could you give me six lotto numbers as well! Seeing as though you can predict the future!!?..:mad:

fmgc 18th Jul 2012 20:38

NOT to belittle Monarch
That's all the troll has done!!!

gunka 18th Jul 2012 21:21

Even in signing off B&B you manage to degrade and insult people, incredible. Flexi crew nonentities? Apparently you were interested in Mon after all, don't waste your time, not with that attitude. People here, no matter what their rank or contract get treated with respect by their peers and management who they know by first name and can call any time they have an issue. If the alternative is working with people like you is it any wonder they are looking to leave? What's your excuse for putting out the feelers if the future is so bright and orange?
The one thing I do agree with you is that time will tell, not you, not me or anyone else on here. If I had that crystal ball I wouldn't be flying for a living, I'd be doing it for fun.

Mr. Blonde 19th Jul 2012 08:13

Had an interview over a week ago and yet to hear anything? I am TR'd with plenty of hours. Fearing the worst..........

Flying Wild 19th Jul 2012 16:24

Hearing that several bmibaby pilots have been offered jobs.

Sprinkles 20th Jul 2012 12:00

Wanted to add my 2 cents to this thread.

Leaving very (secure?) flexi orange job to go to Mon. My reasons are quite simple. The constant shafting I've received from ej/CTC since starting with regards to hours and pay has forced me to seek a competitive salary else where. I love my job. I fly with great people and a/c but no interest from the company in making any UK flexi based F/O's permanent employees. And please no one say Project Merlin was competitive! :ugh:

So I don't want to leave but feel I have no other choice given the opportunity. To give people a realistic idea and scale of the problem here's a very real example. If i'm rostered 30 hours in Dec (they're quite entitled too and what I had last year), I'll earn a whooping £1,290 gross. Well it's no surprise that my loan repayments, rent, food, council tax, water tax, electricity, car running costs etc exceed this. :{

I do ask people if you were in my (our) position of actually making yourself further in debt by staying with you current employer, would you not seek employment elsewhere?

Mr Blonde. Never heard of anyone who has had an interview turned down. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. They took about 9 working days to get back to me so hold tight. :ok:

Also a mate of mine (Experienced turb prop guy) has got an interview so those with similar experience are also in with a shout.

Now no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go to orange land last year so most of my financial problems are mostly self inflicted. Yes I said it I'm well and truely part of the main :mad: up that constitutes flexi-crew. I'm not proud of it nor do I defend myself other than the fact we were all spun various "promises" from ctc/ej that never materialised, Permanent UK jobs within the company which when proposed left a bitter taste in the mouth. Fortunately there were rejected. A pay example illustrated what people would earn flying a minimum of 750 hours a year. I'll be lucky if I break 700! That'll be over £2,000 less a year earnings.

So now a better offer has come up I've found it very difficult to turn it down. Especially as my job is so secure..... or is it. Anyone see I put a question mark after it at the start?

Well the latest rumour on the street is 40 orange a/c will be parked up over the winter with 150-250 guys let go over the quiet season. So for anyone to say that flexi-crew guys have secure jobs are a little deluded in my honest opinion. CTC and ej can give us 30 days notice if they don't want us. And I suspect the guys that are doing there 8 months line flying may well not be flying anything after that. But on the flip side this does give the company great flexibility at a very low cost. Yay!!! :yuk:

Hopefully that's a good grounded opinion of someone that is in the continual mire that is otherwise known as flexi-crew.

p.s. B&B. I can honestly say I respect your opinion and that of your peers with similar thoughts. In fact I kind of think we'd get on quite well if we flew together. I like flying with people that have good conversation skills and their own opinions. Always good to get another point of view. That's genuine. But this thread is here for people that want to go to Mon. I'm sure we're all big boys and girls and can make up our own decisions based on what we're able to find out ourselves. Despite the risks!

Good luck to everyone else going through the Monarch process, those on flexi-crew this winter and Monarch!!!

McC 20th Jul 2012 16:07


If every post was like yours this would be a better place!

Well done, good luck.


nowind 20th Jul 2012 16:29


I wish you all the best in your new job. With an attitude like yours you will get along well everywhere. Well put and very balanced.

We might even have flown together.

Dan 98 20th Jul 2012 18:56


If i was in your position I would do the same, it is a no brainer!

Best of luck. :ok:

BlackandBrown 20th Jul 2012 20:26

Sprinkles I too would do the same. Before you wrote that I was going to say something. I've recently seen the same documents you mentioned and to be honest the situation in easy is now beyond the pale. I wasn't aware it was this bad. It is unreasonable. Easyjet are playing a very short term game. A game which eventually will make the job not worth it - certainly not with the level of debt we have attached to it. Life's too short.

To that end I'd recommend taking the Monarch offer with both hands and wish you and anyone else who does luck with it.

J320 20th Jul 2012 21:13

I, too, was going to write something similar to Sprinkles. Unfortunately the situation for FlexiCrew is becoming unacceptable. The latest cadets, I believe, have been told to expect the winter off. Those pilots nearing the end of their contracts with easyJet, I believe, have doubts about whether they will be kept on.

I do not want to turn this into a debate about cadets and their naivety but it is unfortunate they are still signing up with the knowledge it will not provide a job.

Sprinkles speaks a lot of sense and to add further to their gloomy picture for current FlexiCrew, it would appear that summer hours are reducing gradually also. When I signed up I was told to expect low winter hours but the annual salary would be leveled out with high summer hours. Not so anymore.

There is an argument that one is foolish for staying in the UK on FlexiCrew rather than moving abroad and enjoying full terms and conditions. This is a valid argument but unfortunately Europe will eventually, and fairly soon, be saturated with pilots leading to far lower levels of movement if the fleet does not continue to expand and promotions slow.

With this knowledge in hand, the argument of FlexiCrew versus Monarch is quite a simple one and I have opted for the latter. I am thankful Monarch are providing the opportunity and look forward to working for them. I have spoken to many of their staff and they all have good things to say about the company so I canít wait to start. The conditions are good but perhaps more valuable to me is the certainty if the company continues to be successful and the prospect of being treat like a professional pilot.

I will never criticise my colleagues from easyJet as I have had the great pleasure of flying with some wonderful pilots to whom I owe a lot. I have also had the pleasure of working with great cabin crew and ground staff. It is of great sadness to me that that the company is wrecked by ongoing contractual situations and continuous contempt from management. I hope the tide turns in favour of the employees but I fear this will take a long while.

I am pretty sure I know Black and Brown and if I am correct with my assumptions I can vouch that he actually is a decent guy who speaks without malice. B and B has made valid arguments but as he acknowledges, it is unlikely that there will be a positive future for FlexiCrew within the UK.

As for those with questions about the interview, it is very relaxed. Two management pilots having a chat about you and your career. There will likely be a technical aspect and some discussion about CRM and other non-technical skills.

If the Monarch I saw during my application and interview is anything to go by, I expect I will love working for them. Good luck all.

MaxPower2011 21st Jul 2012 10:05

It is a real shame the easyJet has gone down this path. They have everything in place to be a very good career airline: convenient bases, new well equipped aircraft, excellent training and great routes. For some reason they choose not to. Although you get the odd arrogant t****r, many of the cadets are competent, professional and level headed, as sprinkles so eloquently demonstrated. In any other profession, pay and terms and conditions would be such as to attract and retain these types of people. Easy seems to be actively doing the opposite as at present there is a constant stream of (cheaper) newbies to take their place. From a business point of view it makes perfect sense, from a moral point of view it is just wrong. Many large businesses, including airlines have managed to be successful without resorting to these draconian methods.

It is easy to blame the cadets or call them naive, however when faced with loan repayments etc and flexi-crew is your only option, you have to accept the pain, use it as a means to getting experience and move on. You could go further and question the taking of such loans or even getting involved with CTC in the first place. You can keep asking questions but eventually you arrive at one which we can be asked of all of us, why did you choose this profession in the first place?

We can speculate and debate all day as to the security of one airline against another, however surely this is a question of job security. In a sane world this would represent the same thing, however this is not the case as the flexi-crew contract offers no security whatsoever within what is a very secure airline.

I made my decision based on the same reasons highlighted in the last few posts and can honestly 100% say that I have not regretted my decision for a second. I have always enjoyed my job, but I now do so without resentment towards my employer and I actually feel appreciated for my efforts. On that basis I would actively encourage anyone, especially flexi-crew, to move.

Monarch like easyJet, demand high competency and professionalism. The difference is, in return you will be treated with respect, be paid well (and consistently!) and be afforded a decent work life balance and a definite career structure.

Ray Webster 21st Jul 2012 14:14

April 2010 Monarch teetered on the edge of failure following the Ash Cloud.

They have now abandoned that long held business model and bought new aircraft for new routes and new bases. Trouble is they pay too much money for too inflexible crew and I doubt they got aircraft anywhere near as cheaply as Ryan or Easy did when they ordered hundreds when the makers were desperate. So their cost base is higher. Their marketing budget will have to be higher again to win new customers on new routes from new bases.

They, like all airlines in that scenario, will bleed money heavily. Now I have no idea whether the owner cares about this or not. But neither do you. There is the gamble. Given the economic clouds forecast for 2013 I'd say the odds are risky.

Aer Lingus, a company with a significantly higher public awareness than Monarch, couldn't make LGW or BFS work when they put some A320's in there five years ago with crews on degraded contracts. Does Monarch know something Aer Lingus didn't? Maybe. Maybe not. Similarly there was a lot of excitement when BMI announced they were entering the point to point direct sales market with BMI Baby. Its taken nine years for that to come to an end in deep losses despite 2003 - 2007 being boom years.

Those joining for the present expansion are getting a better deal than they are currently on. That's part of the problem. It won't last. Then you're job hunting in 49degree heat and still carrying those massive training loans you signed up for :{

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 21st Jul 2012 16:35

All companies that do fail usually do so for one very simple reason......They run out of cash!

The fundamental misunderstanding people often make, is that Monarch is a private company and not a PLC. It sits within a fairly complex and not particularly transparent portfolio of other companies that are also owned by the same families. Within these companies there is a significant degree of symbiosis as well as a degree of independence. To that extent there is also a high degree of risk hedging. In lay terms they keep their "egg" portfolio in a number of baskets.

The largest two "lo-co's" keep all their eggs in one basket. The model is simple, and in commerce it is a well established one. "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap!" They have a low cost base by contract leasing almost everything, from the aircraft to the pot plant in the Managing Directors office." There is precious little risk hedging, but that is offset by aggresive marketing and volume sales to achieve both growth and that all important cash flow. With the latter in mind they are also cash businesses. Almost all of their point of sale business is cash on purchase with most delivery at a later date. That cash generation tool is a critically important part of the model.

Historically if you at look at the evolution of airline models within similar markets, the real vulnerability is in being "runner up," in second place. The demise of the biggest competitor in your backyard eventually becomes the easiest if not the only road to expansion.

Monarch hasn't abandoned its previous model. It has however recognised the realities of the evolution of the markets it operates in, as well as the other players (big and small) within those markets. Its strengths lie in the versatility to adapt to those markets, which is what you are seeing now.

As a private company, and certainly as this private company, it is not dependent on nervous banks to call the shots. The few shareholders this company has, have drawn income from a succesful business for 95% of its existence. For the remaining 5% they have had to reverse that flow of monies. Whilst I am not privy to how they strategize the business, given the portfolio of companies that offset short term losses in one, it doesn't appear to be something they want to cut loose anytime soon.

Notwithstanding the above, losses do nothing to contribute to a succesful portfolio. There has been a lot of introspection in all of the component parts of the businesses. To some extent we have been very slow to adopt primary economies that the lo-co's realized years ago. Whilst that isn't a good thing, there is a lot of margin for savings that aren't there to competitors. This will significantly turn around the numbers. When you add that to the in-house plans, the outlook is very good indeed.

Nothing in life or business is guaranteed, and it is a basic economic tenet that profit is payment for risk. However as anybody with their own private company knows all too well, businesses are structured towards the growth of the business and providing the income for the owners. Profit is what tax is paid on, so it is rarely a spectacular number.

For those joining Monarch now, I sincerely believe they have a good future. I do not doubt that ongoing evolution will bring changes, some of which will be unwelcome, but accepting the reality of risk, many of the fundamentals are very good.

As it relates to the basis of this thread, Monarch is a company that has always recruited quality people from a spectrum of backgrounds: Military career changers; Experienced self improver civilian pilots; Cadets from affiliated integrated training schools. As a TRTO we are well placed and have no particular aversion to offering type specific training courses to otherwise well qualified pilots. This diversity of recruitment provides an element of chlorine to the group demographic pool. Within each recruitment profile, the terms and conditions on offer are very fair. Where there is a price point differential (such as with cadets) the apprenticeship period is usually less than 18 months, and then it is a level playing field.

If you read this thread from the start, and you read a few other similar long threads, you will find it is generally the same people wading in with ill informed and often vacuous comments. That can't be helped, and it is the nature of this particular beast.

Monarch is a good company and a good employer. Within the confines of professional confidentiality, discretion, and experience, I have tried to show why it is a good company. It's strengths lie in it's resources which are not as fragile as some people imagine. They also lie in its staff. Not just pilots, but engineers, cabin crew, managers, apprentices and admin' staff.

That is why you see so little criticism or bad mouthing of the business from anybody that actually knows anything about the reality of it.

Invalid User Name 21st Jul 2012 18:54

PilotsOfTheCaribbean - What an excellent post. Informative, well balanced and erudite.

The demise of the biggest competitor in your backyard eventually becomes the easiest if not the only road to expansion.
Speaks volumes.

All times are GMT. The time now is 16:09.

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.