The answer is simple - give the VACC a 97% rejection of this initial offer and a second 97% vote in favour of a strike - stand together and both the union and the company will have to listen.

Sold out again
 

Having been sold out by BALPA in 2001/2002 does no one learn their lesson. I was involved with the TDC's for those who remember that body...we had to threaten BALPA with legal action to get them to represent us as expected & deserved based on the extortionate cost.....but alas a leopard never changes its spots & those whom think is does are deluded.....

I left BALPA (and VAA) & joined the TGWU as it was then & for 20% of the cost I got far better representation than BALPA ever offered.

Stand up to BALPA & the VACC.....97% is a massive protest vote.....dont let it go unheeded.

Good Luck

Reckon a "surprise" NO vote is a distinct possibility. Despite the rhetoric trying to justify an embarrassing climb down and U-turn, the level of anger amongst our colleagues is palpable.

BALPA
 

It seems nothing changes In the Airline world, Yet again Balpa have sold the Pilots down the River, I would never work for Virgin but I am surprised that the pilots use BALPA they could set up there own Organisation and save 1% a year I'ts probably more now. I think the old saying Is that BALPA stands for British Airways Line Pilots Association. I have another word for them that can't be Repeated on here

What is the 'new' offer that is being recommended?

when are you lot gonna grow up? If a union takes a Scargill stand, last man and all that and kills off the industry, the union has lost the plot and are far too militant.

Yet when a union takes a more cautious stand and sincerely believes the company is at risk if they follow through with industrial action you have all been sold out.

Make your bloody minds up what you want. Fight to the end where everyone loses or sensible negotiation to improve on what's already a good deal.

You should also not lose sight of where your excellent terms and conditions originated. It certainly wasn't the generosity of any airline.

Hang on a sec here... Forgive my simplistic view here but there might be a reason for the Virgin CC to go through the motions in putting this offer to the members. If 97% rejected it first off then there should be no doubt that near on damn it 97% will reject it this time around.

Unless someone wishes to post the full details and background to this offer then I for one can't see this as a 'selling down the river' business from BALPA. Just a process that really only concerns VAA members.

Good luck guys and girls

Forgive me for sounding naive but isn't the UK economy still very fragile? Wouldn't it be prudent to accept a 4% increase this year and review it again in 12 months time?

Surely any large salary increases awarded in the higher echelons of the company (post agreement) would be evidence/ammunition to support improved pay offers for the masses in due course.

It may be 'bluff' on the part of management at VS but is it worth taking the gamble, and potentially damaging the reputation, and financial health of Virgin Atlantic?

I have no idea about the perceived abilities of the Virgin Co Council but it's hard to comprehend that they would lead the troops to the brink and then suddenly change their mind. There must be more to this scenario that what is posted here. If a CC recommend acceptance of a deal which is subsequently rejected that becomes very damaging to them. More often than not this is a result of poor comms or inability to get the message across. The truth is out there somewhere. It needs aired properly before you guys vote again.

So does anybody know what actually went on here? Was a much improved offer made? I sincerely hope so after such a strong vote in favour of industrial action.

Well Count, doesn't this sound very familiar? You will remember what happened in BMI just a few years ago with that strong mandate.

Very true MrBenip, I'm coming to the conclusion that BALPA is run like a business just taking 1% off a relatively high earning group of individuals. I wonder how much Jim Mc earns etc.? It would be very interesting to find out! They seem to run a mile from any form of confrontation. I've heard that the deal was pretty much the same as the initial offer from the company. At bmi however, we don't even get an offer from the company and BALPA do absolutely nothing about it:ugh:

Count, I have asked around and according to several engineers it would seem they get the 'going rate' as do the cabin crew and check-in staff, so why is it that just the pilots are expected to subsidise the airline? To keep the thread on track is this the same at VS?

It feels as though there is an industry wide conspiracy to drive down pilot's terms and conditions although perhaps this is by now obvious to everyone. It sure is a shame when you feel the union representing pilots does not seem to have the will to address this slippery downhill slope.

I'm personally tired of hearing that we would drive the company out of business if we got the going rate, it seems VS are making the same threat as well now. Either they can afford to run an airline or they can't. I wonder how low will it go before pilots worldwide really kick-off, then Joe public might have to be charged a quid or two more per ticket.

It seems the airlines still have enough cash though to hose down the suited gods and top bean counters with obscene amounts of cash, whether they do a good job or not. I think this more than anything really ticks us off, because one thing is for sure its not the pilots that are dragging the companies fortunes down!

I guess at the end of the day it's all about supply and demand. I can't think of
any other profession where people are willing to pay to work. Rant over.

Amen benip

A peak at the books by BAPLA have made them run a mile -Just how bad, cash flow wise is it at Virgin Atlantic ?

As good or bad as they wish to present (spin) it!!

Exactly, the mob I used to work for makes pots of cash but still managed to show a loss through the winter so they could do us out of agreed payrise.

I would say that Virgin is probably doing just fine.

Good luck

As Mr B / Count VA have alluded to;- at bmi, as part of a multi-year pay deal in 2004/5 it was agreed that there would be salary negotiations to determine the remuneration levels for the final year of that pay deal.
Come the final year- no negotiation on the part of the airline ("there's no money left") Following a vote circa 90% in favour of action, BALPA were "shown the books", renegotiated & recommended to the pilots that we accept a new (not very different) "offer". Cue vote for acceptance & a 51% vs. 49% result in favour of new offer - which was a deal for a very modest increase; something like RPI + 1.5%, move up one increment on the scales, and at least RPI in the final (3rd) year.

A week later the company posts a £30M profit.

Come the final year of the above deal, following assurances by the CEO in December 2008 that "the RPI increase would be honoured", in the week that the increase was to take place, many pilots (myself included) had increased salaries withdrawn from our bank accounts & re-credited with a non-increased salary a few days later. ("there's no money left")
Said CEO then has the audacity to answer questions on BBC's programme "Working Lunch" saying that he never took money from anyone's account (sure- he didn't, but the payroll firm employed by him certainly did- on someone's orders)

In the same year (2009) that all the pilots had an enforced pay freeze (which, incidentally still extends to today & will the way things are looking turn out to be a 3 year one) - it turns out that the guy that told us there was no money left allegedly awarded himself a 300% pay rise taking his salary to £1.5M just before he buggered off, no doubt also enhancing his pension in the process just as our FS pension was closed.:ugh:

I know this post is slightly off-thread, but it demonstrates the kind of people that are running the airlines today;
The guys on the CC are pilots, not accountants- I have to say that I'm sure if I were shown a set of figures that indicated a poor financial position, I wouldn't know whether they were truthful or total BS. What level of accountancy skills do the guys at big BALPA have when analysing the data the company puts before them? Moreover, would it be possible for someone with the right skills to spot a bit of creative accountancy by the airlines?

For all the money that BALPA receives, is the weak link the lack of ability of the union to spot that you're being sold down the river come negotiating time?

I'm not knocking any of the CCs, merely suggesting that at a national level there might be a lack of ability to counter the (obviously) very skilful, and (definitely) very devious practices by some (or most) of those running the airlines. (BTW I'm still a member of BALPA- living in hope).

Suckers!!!!
 

Yep, sorry to say it, but you've been outwitted guys!

I got the impression while looking to book that any possible pilot strikes later this year, are resolved so I assume they must have accepted the pay offer.

Any idea if the details of the offer will ever become public, and how many actually voted to accept, it I doubt it was as high as the number voting to strike before.

Whatever it was it looks they have all been sworn to secrecy! It's suddenly gone very quiet on here.

MrB

Nothing to report yet. The ballot on the pay deal ends this week. Last week saw the closure of the ballot for a new company council. I wouldn't put money on the outcome of either.

So what was the deal?

Who knows, but what skip.rat said above might prove prescient given the £18.5 million profit VA posted this morning...

2nd UPDATE: Virgin Atlantic Swings To Profit, Plans To Modernize Cabins - WSJ.com

Looks like BALPA have been turned over yet again.

True, but to be fair, 18.5m is hardly breaking any records.

Agreed 18.5M is not massive in the big scheme of things but it would have been enough to appease the pilots pay request.

I agree with Stormin Norman, BALPA have either once again wimped out or again acted like muppets and believed everything that the Company(s) tell them. I could list countless examples of where BALPA do some chest beating and then run a mile at the first signs of confrontation/industrial action. How many times have they gone through companies accounts and agreed with the management that the Company can't afford to make the necessary pay increases, only to find a year later that the CEO & top management walk away with golden handshakes or pay increases of their own?

The two reasons I remain a BALPA member was to better/maintain my T&C's despite the Union now seeming to be doing a good job at pi$$ing that away and also for the forum regarding Company news. I have now come to the conclusion that both of these are not worth my 1%. I wonder how many others, especially Virgin pilots will now suddenly withdraw their subscriptions?

BALPA staff, if you read this you should be ashamed of yourselves. Many of the airlines once considered you a thorn in their side, now though you are only a joke.

If BA pilots are happy, BALPA is happy - (British Airways Line Pilots Association) - Simples!

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why the Virgin Company Council are happy, given that none of them work for BA?

Surely it is the VACC who have wasted your 97% vote in favour of strike action. Hopefully they have explained their recommendation fully to you. Although judging by the rather lukewarm, apathetic acceptance of the deal, I would guess not.

I feel sorry for your new VACC, as they have an awful lot of work to do to gain the support and trust of the members.

I do hope your management fulfill their side of the bargain, but I guess none of you will hold your breath.

The fact is that more than half of Virgin pilots accepted the deal, whatever that deal is as no one seems to know! Nonetheless, the CC were faced with a tricky situation. An £18.5m profit is really wafer-thin and had they called a strike the company would have made a loss. Virgin is now a small fish in a big pond - they could yet go the way of Laker. The CC know this and recognise the importance of not shooting the golden goose. That strikes me as solid judgement, and from where I sit BALPA were not turned over - they took the money and ran away at the right time.

From Heathrow Skyport, 13th August 2011:

Virgin pilots accept new pay deal
By Salina Patel

PILOTS at Virgin Atlantic have accepted an improved pay offer removing the threat of any strike action.

Members of the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) voted 63 per cent in favour of the new agreement on an 87 per cent poll which saw workers secure a three year increase in basic salary of 3.5 per cent backdated to January this year, followed by three per cent in 2012 and 2013.

The package deal also included other offers such as 'flying pay' which is a top-up on pay for flying hours, a profit share scheme financially rewarding pilots when the company makes a profit, and a programme to review pilot lifestyle focused on modifying rosters, schedules and travel policies.

Jim McAuslan, BALPA's general secretary said: "Virgin Atlantic pilots voted overwhelmingly for strike action (97 per cent on a 94 per cent poll) in June but given some improvement on pay, against very tough trading conditions, and commitments to improve lifestyle, they have now decided to settle this pay round with the future in mind.

"Now we need to work together - management and association - to get Virgin back to the airline it once was."

A Virgin Atlantic spokeswoman, said: "We are very pleased that our pilots have accepted our pay offer as we value their commitment and expertise enormously.

"The offer that has been agreed is both fair and affordable and the company would like to thank our pilots' representatives for gaining a good understanding of the wider economic climate and commending the pay award."

The union now wants to close the gap between management and pilots' working relations in light of the fact Virgin came close to its first ever industrial action from staff.

In a letter to Sir Richard Branson, Mr McAuslan highlighted that although long service pilots recalled Virgin being fuelled by passion, fun, and unbounded enthusiasm that feeling was not the 'DNA' of today.

He also said pilots needed to hear less about how things used to be and more about how they ought to be; and that management did "too much listening and not enough hearing".

Mr McAuslan added: "There are lessons for us all in this dispute and BALPA's board will be tabling ideas on how we can be robust, professional and business-like in our dealings and we will be looking to engage with progressive employers in this way."

Update
 

Could anyone shed some light on what exactly this new pay deal includes?

Nothing. There's supposed to be a new relationship but we've still got the guy with the biggest ego in the company in charge of Operations. We had hoped he'd go but he's still clinging on.
Most of us are resigned to the fact that this company will never be what it once was.
Pity really.