Norman - isn't your FOD the one that joined from Flybe?

To the those of you who have accepted this contract, reconsider!
I'm an FO of 3 years with Easyjet I'm on the command waiting list and as far as the company are concerned I'm just a cost they would love to get rid of and replace with cheap cadets on 'training' contracts. I have nothing against any of the people who have accepted these contracts and understand that you are in a very difficult positon. My reason for posting is to try and make it clear that these contracts will in no way improve your current situations, 2011 will come round and you will for the most part be left by the roadside to make way for the next bunch of cadets.
It pains me to say this but I would tell Oxford, CTC and Easyjet where to go and head off to Ryanair as I'm fairly sure the Brookfield contracts on offer are, I'm sad to say, far better than are own.

RAFAT, I think NSF is talking about the genius who came from Transavia,where he was known as "Laughing Knife".

Applemacster

Two points:

1. Ryanairs deal is in a different league (a far better one) and thus will achieve a different league of person. And I hate Ryanair and their scheme.

2. CTC graduates and these Oxford tools that are about to embark on this scam shouldn't be bunched together or spoken to in the same way. They have completely different offers, are in completely different circumstances - one has no choice in this situation and the other is a parasitic, mummy and daddies boy or girl that still hasn't discovered the ability to wipe their own ar5e. As a result, they are getting 5hit on everyone else.

I thought Easyjet said they would never do a scheme like this again after what happened with ATP? That must have been just another myth. Will it be a case of:

'Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me.'

And:

'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' - Albert Einstein.

And:

'Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.' - 'to err is human, but to persist is diabolical'

You see, history is littered with these phrases for a reason.


Training captains, ultimately do what's best for you. But if you have any spare leverage or capacity please stop this Oxford scheme from happening, it's a step too far.

Beak, I agree with many of your opinions on this site. eJ management have played a very clever game on many levels in the last year. Divide and conquer is the name of their game and with the current threat of reducing Training Captain numbers/remuneration, I fear that the majority of Training Captains will not wish to rock the boat regarding this dreadful scheme. (NSF being an exception) So what can be done by my colleagues and I? I don't have the answer I'm afraid. BALPA showing some leadership would be a great start though, in my opinion.

New EasyCadets
 

Beak - I think this is more appropriate and somewhat apocryphal

I just can't wait to see the end of the crisis coming. EJ management are making people so disgusted they're digging their own grave to competitors' future satisfaction.

An in-house type rating doesn't cost more than about 12k, so why aren't ezy doing that? Their trainers can't be working particularly hard right now as they haven't recruited anyone for a while. If the training is conducted by ezy then they don't pay VAT or the profits of the training organisation, plus they must get sim time at a reduced rate (I presum ezy don't have their own sims)? Where on earth does 34k come from? can anyone realistically break down and justify this amount of money?

12k cost, 22k profit.

Good answer KrisKross.

65% profit margin, that's good business! the beancounters at Oxford and Easy must be rubbing their sorry hands......... :E

Thanks AppleMacster. :ok:

easyjet exellence
 

The start to a new year needs some positive news. I would like to say a massive thankyou to all the cabin crew and pilots at easyjet.

Your professional, dedicate commitment to exellence has produced a staggering result for the year 08/09.

This has probably been the worst recession since the depression of 1930
yet dispite several airlines going to the wall. easyjet have managed to increase turnover,passenger numbers, and profit per seat.

Due to your superb performance you have produced a profit in excess of £390 million. This would be considered a great performance in the best economic enviroment, but to produce this world class result in the current climate is quite remarkable.

As you are aware the company posted a profit of 54.7 million(source LSE)
This is due to another remarkable achievement , this time by management.
The management lost 330 million by hedging fuel at the wrong price.(source FT) therefor reducing our profit.

To all you hard working men and woman at the front line well done!

I wonder if that will make the cadets who are being laid off this winter feel any better..:rolleyes:

or the guys given the option stumping up for an over priced type rating for part time work on poor pay ?

No one forced them, they knew what the t & C's were...

Thanks for that, my blood is boiling. It is the worst of the worst companies and not because of the crews.

As did Bruce when he joined RYR on BRK contract but he still bitched like hell when it looked like he was going to be left out of ballot for BALPA recognition (he didn't want it)

And we can all see how Easy can rack up such massive profits..... at the expense of the: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...n-academy.html

paddingtonbear.

I said the ones given the option of, not the ones who took it.

vast difference.

Propellerhead,

The trainers at easy are working very hard due to the lack of crews in the company. The trainers do fly the aircraft as well as training! That aside, I too have difficulty in arriving at £34k, though the VAT would have to be paid for by the end user, ie the pilot.

P.S. I'm not defending the scheme - it stinks.

from dad & mom ! :ugh:

Is it true that OAA and CTC have changed the end of course training report for their graduates from one which was based on their flying ability, ground school results etc etc to one based on their credit rating.
e.g.
1= those with an excellent credit rating irrespective of their flying ability

2= good credit rating/reasonable flying skills

3= reasonable credit rating/good flying skills

4= little credit/excellent flying skills

5= no credit... must try harder irrespective of flying skills

This now seems to be the way forward!

I know the last post was in jest (well, at least partly) but I do wish people would stop associating having financial ability with lack of flying ability. The two are NOT linked. There's as much truth in that as saying that anyone who Doesn't have cash is a brilliant pilot, or that people only go modular because they can't afford Oxford. All total cobblers. Anyone with even half a brain will understand that the either route, minted or skint will produce both great pilots and rubbish in equal numbers.

These assertions only cloud the issue and I can only assume they're some vain attempt to cover up for individuals inadequacies.

You all at Easy AND Ryanair : never forget what is happening at the moment at those airlines. Never forget the way they're messing with you eventhough they're making huge profits. NEVER ! And behave with them accordingly when the sun shines again.

Leave as soon as you can and leave them with their own staffing problems whenever you can. Future is not there. Careers are not there.

Its times like this that you wish we had a real union with strength and not the "lets keep the management happy and not cause a fuss" BALPA. If only people would get together and say enough is enough, its strike time. We have all the power in this industry but everyone is far too scared to use it. I often wonder if BALPA is headed by the airlines management, they pretend to be on our side but in reality they only serve to keep us down. If anything BALPA has helped the management destroy T's&C's.

One day everyone will be crying about how they are all on awfull contracts and no union can legally represent them. Then you'll wish youd taken some ****ing action instead of burying your head in the sand.

FRying, the problem is that during the good years nobody has the backbone to fight for something. Everybody is fat dumb and happy, thinking about how 'fortunate' they are with a short time to command without a seniority list and their next flat screen TV. I've been hammering on this issue (lack of backbone and foresight) for years only to be laughed at and be told to 'just leave if you're not happy.'

During those proverbial good years the ones with enough foresight will have figured it out and will have left, leaving only fresh new meat/cadets, naive positive thinkers/dreamers (like NSF, sorry Norman) who think a CEO is their biggest friend and BALPA which is way behind the power curve. And then the whole cycle starts again, with everyone (except management of course!) getting an even smaller piece of the pie during the next downturn... :ugh:

With so much sh!t happening in 'unionized' airlines (see also Thomas Cook!) BALPA is slowly proving union basher like Real Slim Shady, Leo Hairy Camel and others right. BALPA have been hugely outmaneuvered, wasting precious resources and credibility ('keeping the powder dry') by focusing on stupid little battles but loosing the big picture and the war.

Maybe it really is a Britsh Airways Line Pilot Association after all? :suspect:

A full page advertisement in BLAPA's Oct/Nov 2009 rag (Page 4 - inside front cover is BALPA financial solutions).

for OAA....


The very issue where the cover feature with "A Change for the Worse - We reveal how cadet recruitment could change the face of aviation"

Lead line... Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.

and a very quote from that cover feature..

and..

this is the beauty..


Lot of morality there on who you take the advertising dime from, while decrying their competitors for the same actions as your full page advert client.

Bruce Wayne
 

That was an interesting post, it would have been even more interesting if it was the first time I had read it but you put on the EZY/CTC thread also. Why not post it in a few threads on Jetblast as well?

I know you have a huge downer on BALPA but this is becoming obsessive. Given that you are not a member, at least you said you were not when the BALPA recognition thread was running, why are you commenting. Also, given that you are on BRK contract, unless your posts have led to the 30 pieces of silver being offered by FR, you are part of the problem ie the mallaisse affect your pilot community.

In previous posts you have demonstrated your ignorance of the amount of influence that any body such as BALPA, IATA etc have in doing anything about this whole situation.

You were actively against the ballot for BALPA recognition in RYR so diminishing their voice. Make bed, lie on it.

The Lemon Face speaks.

You are not a commercial pilot, never have been, never will be. You are irrelevant in a discussion that relates to the terms and conditions within a cockpit environment.

Now tootle off back to MS flight sim. :ok:

Brucey baby
 

have never published pictures either on PPrune or on the net, so where you get this description from I am at a loss to explain. Perhaps you would do so, a satisfactory explanation would prevent me viewing you as a spoiled child in shorts unable to come up with a proper retort. Commonly known as "spitting the dummy"

I have never claimed to be, a trawl of my previous posts will prove that.

I am however a trade unionist who recognises that when a body of well paid employees sees their terms and conditions going down the pan faster than a turd in an a/c toilet it is time that we all took notice. The discusion I have read has nothing to with that environment or CRM or anything other than the degradation of T&Cs within the aviation business. You did not need to be down a pit to support the miners in 1984 (I await your flame). You are very good at trying to misdirect the discussion but my comments stand. If you wish to make criticism about a representative could you please make it constructive.

You make a cheap shot at sims yet you do not disclose your pastimes, or are you totally grey other than wanting money? I give you further targets of woodwork, cooking and gardening in addition to reading a wide range of subjects. Very little time left for simming.

You very adroitly duck my original post and do what most under siege do, attack. But here is nothing to attack, only your reflection.

I reiterate, you are part of this problem, not the cure - I have yet to see you post anything stating how you as a pilot are going to contribute to assisting your "profession" dig itself out of this cr@p.

This thread is about Easyjets/ctc deal. Not Bruce Wayne or FR. As for trade unions. Ashtray and motorbike springs to mind. You are busy busy bee wth a lot of time to worry about Bruce and his terms and how he is "part of a problem". Reality is Bruce does not have a problem. He flys a jet, gets payed, and then goes home.
I bet he really is losing sleep with such a problem. The lemon face comment might be something to do with bitterness.

Never did say you had claimed to a pilot. Though, you wouldn't get the point if it were drummed into you with a 4x2. You STILL don't.

Indeed you are trade unionist. To every degree. Your position is to rabble rouse against anyone who may disagree with the directions or actions of a union, no matter how poor that direction or action. That, my dear chap is bigotry.

Do you work for BALPA ?

It has everything to do with the cockpit environment. If you had done yourself the courtesy to read the posts by many other pilots on here you would understand haw it is all interconnected. See above definition of 'Lemon Face'

Negative. Not misdirecting at all, in fact quite the opposite. Myself and others have attempted to address some of the areas in which this industry needs significant attention for it to remain a profitable industry.

*YOU* have subverted that by driving every attempt at defining where and what needs to be addressed into a carnival wet sponge attack on anything you deem as anti union.

By default, you are contributing to the problem in diverting discussion away from what needs to be done in this industry into your own personal anti-union jack off material.

If you really gave a toss, you would shut up and listen and by now would have an understanding of the problems and not come up with cr@p like :

rather than beat on about anyone that isn't waving the BALPA flag as the second coming of Christ as being anti unionist.

And as for BALPA being the second coming and the answer to all our T&C wet dreams and you as trade unionist with a hard on for them, you neatly diverted any discussion away from why a pilot union that runs a feature article on how cadet programs are damaging the pilot profession and that an advertising account of theirs, OAA, is offering the very cadet program that has the industry as whole spitting blood and is asking what BALPA is going to do about it.

BALPA are advertising them and their APP program in their bloody magazine. - oh with a 3,000 discount with your airline id (subject to terms and conditions) just to really rub salt into the very open and festering wound.

see above my reference to 'Lemon Face'

So you are a MS flight simmer !

The only sims I used are ones approved by the authority. My past times are not your concern, nor anyone else's.


Under siege ? Don't make me laugh.

Do you flatter yourself that much that you think I really give a toss what you say? I extended to you the potential of having open dialogue and to explore areas which need to be addressed nd apologised to you for a degree of harshness on my part. You accepted that and apologised to me for likewise, then, when bolstered by your buddy, you delved into personal attacks, which you continue to do.

Quite frankly, my cats vomit is more interesting that anything you have to say.


Interesting that you assert that someone who has been in this industry for quite a while and wishes to address the problems we face in this industry and the actions we need to consider in view of them is part of the problem.

Oh, but then I am not a flag waving trade unionist am I and that BALPA is the great rapture!.. In your world that makes me the management stooge and the problem.

see above definition of "Lemon Face'

Let's all become train drivers.

YOU get paid 20k for 1 year of line training, by your chosen company.
Guaranteed job upon completion of training, with that company.
35-40k a year thereafter. Jost move the train from A-B and work some unsocial hours.
:sad:

And there's about as many train drivers' jobs going out for experienced F/Os as there are F/O jobs...

I don't know of many magazines where editors censor adverts because they go against an editorial position and I doubt that BALPA's editors even knew what ads would run in the issue in question. One could argue that perhaps in the case of an advocacy group's publication, such censorship should occur and certain ads should be rejected. If BALPA have such a policy, I'm not sure how their editors would have known that a few months later, this advertiser was going to announce such a scheme though. For all we know, they may be angry about it too and could have further editorial denigrating PTF in the works.

Frankly, editorial would be a pretty impotent response compared to growing a set of gonads and initiating some industrial action, conducting a PR campaign and lobbying the regulators. I'd like to know which the flying public value more, their fair trade credentials or their cheap tickets? I doubt that more than the 1-2 percent of the public beyond those connected to the industry even know there are FOs up front paying to fly or under line training. The problem with an an effective PR campaign is that it could create more concerns about the low amount of training the FO has had than it would about who is paying for it. Perhaps the subsequent erosion of passenger confidence would give impetus for the airline taking responsibility for training costs again.

There are probably a great number of things BALPA could and should be doing to fight PTF, but preaching to their own choir through LOG is least among them and they wouldn't have known what was coming anyway.

i understand from yesterday's Mail (not a great source!!) that Birmingham Council dustcart drivers are paid £56000!!!

Did anyone else spot the Eastjet job advert in this week's Flight International for Pilot Training Managers, part of the role being to (quote) research/develop innovative "loss cost" training solutions? Whatever next....

AL446

Richer than The Sultan of Brunei coming from one of the most venomous anti FR voices on Pprune!