Finally my predicted 'Pay to Fly' equivalent of 'Speedy Boarding' comes to fruition.

Unlike our friends at FR, there's no 6 to 12 month queue for a TR with these boys. Indeed, nor should there be for those so willing to pay a hefty 'premium rate dowry'. I mean Fairs Fare is it not?!

In New Year 'Rupert' will start to fly for Easy Jet; and a mighty proud boast too for the family Christmas dinner table!

Hopefully, Car Park X will be utilised to maximise 'Rupert's' exposure to his adoring public on the lengthy ride to Concorde House. It may also give him chance to reflect on the 'Pay to Fly' tsunami that has destroyed industry terms and conditions, and left so many 'Real' pilots out of work.

I am sure 'Rupert' will be welcomed with 'open arms' on the line, after all, what harm has he caused? We are all just jealous that he was 'selected' as the blank canvas template for the future of the industry. Rightly so, he did so well at Oxford didn't he?! You ask his parents!

The 43 Guy's that have just been left out in the cold following the collapse of Globespan clearly had nothing to offer. (Well; not the 34K anyway.)

Sunrise
 

Watching the sunrise from FL390 probably means you've been up all night.

Or on an obscene early morning!

[quote][ /QUOTE]

Yep, my 4.15am this morning was not worth the sunrise.

However, 'Ruperts' coming anyway!

I am rather amused at some of you expressing shock and surprise at Oxford getting involved in such a scheme with easyJet. Oxford are a business and surely they have the number one intention of making money? Whilst this scheme might be questionable for some of us from a moral point of view, it is well within the realms of the law. If I was an investor in Oxford then I would be only too pleased to see them generate income from this lucrative area of the training market. It is a tough world out there and the students who get themselves into financial trouble with such schemes do so out of enrolling out of their own choice.

I don't expect many students will be 'getting themselves into financial trouble' by engaging on this scheme.

I imagine 'Rupert' has secured the cash a little closer to home, and with infinitely better terms:E. His Mum will make a great job of washing and ironing his white shirt for him too!, (I know mine does).

£35k for a A320 TR? Guess what? I paid OAA £22k earlier this year!

Ahh but you PAID didn't you "Superpilot"!!?

Haven't you heard of inflation? I believe that such 'opportunity's' are not particularly price sensitive. There is room to manoeuvre yet!

Let them spend their parents money; enjoy :}.

Not when Rupert is operating from somewhere that is no where near to Windsor! Then again - perhaps the commuting will go on Daddy's NetJets account! (sorry - could not resist!) ;)

It better goes on daddy´s account because eJ won´t pay for it!

NetJets will be pleased of the business!

Perhaps a VLJ might be more appropriate, or an Avanti (as long as know one sees)

Oops, sorry wrong forum;)

Night Night.

Sums up the despicable nature of this scheme nicely.

The Hunger.
 

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, Mister Geezer.

Oxford was once known as a training establishment of excellence. In fact, it was generally regarded as one of the finest flight training establishments on earth. No longer, I fear.

That they have chosen to prostitute their brand, that most precious of all things, speaks well to the sort of callow, temporary thinking that flourishes during the course of a recession. Capital, regrettably, requires constant attention. It demands massage, reassurances, flowers, dinners out and spooning in the mornings. We've all woken up next to such creatures, I'm sure, but imagine being linked by the very DNA to such a beast!

In German, there is a phrase that describes perfectly the increasingly widespread phenomenon of flight attendants, commonly of Eastern European origin, who set their sights on fecund young men of the air, in whom they presume wealth and the possession of a golden future; as golden at least as those lovely shoulder stripes.
It seems to me that Oxford, in acting as shills for so plainly a disreputable venture, have become stripe hunters too. One wonders at the corporate desperation, not to mention the slovenly financial ethics, that would acquiesce to so squandered an excellence as this!

Nevertheless, the Meerkat will decide.


Let these hungry boys and girls come forth, let them bury their parent's investments in (and of) treasure, and then when fetched up upon the rocks of so thinly conceived relations as are these, let that then advertise the inherent value of such schemes.

There is, and always has been, a hunger in the hearts of certain young men and women to fly. This principal fact cannot be stopped by any means, but it can be exploited by the unscrupulous. Do, please, my dear young colleagues of the air, be careful in making hungry decisions that may yet be called to account upon the empty stomachs of an uncertain future, especially where they are paid for by those who love you.

Leo.

To answer the beak, my point is Oxford have been doing these schemes a long time in various forms. Some deals better or worse than the current deal, Its no great shock they are still offering these courses.

No I dont believe anyone should sign up on them, I never have and hope I will never have to!

Leo, the difference is that you and I are viewing this from the outside. If I was an investor in Oxford then I would certainly be rubbing my hands with glee at this business opportunity which at £34K per candidate, is bound to be very lucrative. Oxford will never see this as them prostituting their brand as you put it. Pulling off a stunt like this with a large operator like easyJet will keep the management smiling and the ridiculous price tag that is attached will keep the financial people happy too. From a business point of view, it is a sound move since there will be an endless supply of customers who are willing to pay a ridiculous price for a Minibus type rating. I am not defending what Oxford are doing since I feel that they are exploiting vulnerable inexperienced pilots who are hungry to get strapped into an Airbus. The ethics are indeed questionable but Oxford is a business and they are there to make money. If people feel that they are prostituting their own brand then I can assure you that Oxford will not give two hoots. The queue of customers and airlines will still be constant and steady. In fact the tie up that Oxford now has with TRTO training could see more airlines being approached, which is why I fear this scheme is the tip of the iceberg.

It has been mentioned that Oxford have dipped their toe in the water with similar schemes in the past however, they were merely assisting in selecting candidates to progress to the TRTO which was not under the Oxford umbrella. This is the first occaision where by one can start with zero hours and emerge with an Airbus type rating with all the training being provided by the Oxford brand.

I would be bold enough to say that when Oxford broadened its portfolio of training facilities, it was only a matter of time until an 'oppertunity' like this was going to appear. In the eyes of Oxford management they will probably feel that they are being creative and innovative with this 'product' and to management this is just simply another training 'product'. To us it is ludicrous but to them it makes sound business sense. Finally, if it was not easyJet then another operator would be willing the void instead.

Leo, quite what is going on that I am in total agreement with a posting of yours I do not know, but there it is with reference to your last post. Well said.

please explain me,

if I pay the 33k or35k (whatever it costs), do they guarantee me a job?
I think they will kick me out of easyjet to let the place to another dreamer.

what kind of guaranty I have, that OAA doesn't get financially bust after my payment?
they only way for OAA to make money in this scheme is to replace pilots after their line training? so what kind of guaranty I get to not be kicked out after 1 or 2 months?

Wanabe,

There is only one guarantee in life and that is that we are all going to die.

Why do guys always say 'guarantee', aside from dying nothing can be guaranteed!

Not quite true, Phileas, but close. Taxes are guaranteed as well. Nevertheless the sentiment is valid. Nothing is guaranteed in life apart from taxes and nothing may well be what the gullible get at the end of their expensive training.

OTOH, if you want a risk-free life, don't get out of bed in the morning. :}

"There is, and always has been, a hunger in the hearts of certain young men and women to fly. This principal fact cannot be stopped by any means, but it can be exploited by the unscrupulous. Do, please, my dear young colleagues of the air, be careful in making hungry decisions that may yet be called to account upon the empty stomachs of an uncertain future, especially where they are paid for by those who love you."

Nail on head.


"if you want a risk-free life, don't get out of bed in the morning."

Well, if you don't get out of bed you could be at risk from DVT. So if you want a risk free life, don't be alive!

A cheery good morning from London :)

DVT.... ah. I was thinking of catching something else in bed, then again the variable here is who is in bed next to you! ;)

All this talk of OAA knocking their brand etc is nuts.

OAA is controlled by Star Capital. Their only interest is £. The long term future of this business is irrelevant, as they'll have sold it within a few years.

Star Capital Partners

People need to realise how ruthless these guys are - they aren't in business for for the love of flying sadly!

Yes, but they're getting worse every time!

Only three years ago myself and another 23 OAT graduates (Integrated and Modular) went through GECAT selection (there were not the same company then) and offered a DIRECT ENTRY First Officer position at EZY. The catch: we had to pay for the TR and base training (the latter because EZY simply had no spare capacity - the summer of hell). Cost: GBP 20K. I really had to think hard about it, but in the end went for it. I was Modular and had paid for most of the training so far from savings. It seemed acceptable.

Three years later, I have an SFO salary with Boeing and Airbus ratings and I paid the TR loan back.

Compare that with paying for 34K for a six months contract - where you only get paid when you fly. A bit worse, I would say!

P

Is APPFirstOffcerPlus just for integrated or for modular too?

win win situation for OAA. They get a load more customers into their training centres for TRs. Then they get to show off that they got 20grads employed by easyjet - fill their brochures up with easyjet branding/marketing.... = in turn attracts more abinitio students! clever!! :E

Oh yeah and 20K to 35K in 3 years. Now thats what I call inflation!! As GECAT became OAA how do you justify a 15K increase for the same course/facilities. What did they do, refurbish the place in Gold??

The Easyjet scheme appears to be open to modular students as well. At least one of my ex-students has signed up, not through OAA though.

I say let them do it, let them waste their cash and walk away with a laughable 70 hrs or whatever it is (you will still not know your arse from your elbow in a bus after that long!). Let them believe that they can potentially gain full employment out of it after wrecking the chances for experienced crew to move between companies. Let them get used to the crap terms and conditions for which they played a major part in creating.

Let them look forward to a career in an industry where cash rules and where slimy little gits will do almost anything to get ahead. Let them have their month or two of glory playing airline pilot, enjoy while you can...:D

...and how young many of them look. They haven't even had the time to get some life experience. It epitomises what is wrong with the current economic model.

Alex, your ex student, if they didn't go through OAA I am assuming they went through CTC. If not can you please confirm this as that makes things a bit more interesting.

Thanks

The million dollar question is will the easyJet CC be placing this issue on their agenda? Perhaps they are tackling it already which is fantastic if that is the case. Whilst it seems as if there are a number of obstacles that their CC are trying to tackle, I sincerely hope that this particular one does not fall down the priority list.

Also just to make it clear this scheme is a first for Oxford. In the past they have simply helped to select candidates to proceed onto the TRTO, yet not all the training was conducted under the Oxford brand, unlike now. Perhaps that is why you are paying such a inflated price - for the brand? :yuk:

It's probably been suggested before, but can we not take the time to lobby BALPA via strongly worded emails etc - if a significant number of the membership bother to do so then MAYBE, just MAYBE we might see a proportionate response to this obvious THREAT to ALL our Ts and Cs.....

Also though, you chaps/chappesses signing up for these exploitative deals must take SOME (at least) responsibility for the continuing erosion of OUR Ts and Cs.....Please don't suggest otherwise.....:ugh:

I realise there are plenty of BALPA haters out there - this request is not for you and I havn't posted to provoke a whole load of anti-BALPA rhetoric....

It is just astonishing some of the stuff on here, someone mentioned watchdog a few pages back, maybe someone should feed all this back to the media so that passenegers know whats going on. I am a redundant FO from low/co fortunate enough to be back doing what i did before flying to pay the bills, but no one wants an FO with 1500hrs on a 737/3. Whether I'll ever get airborne again i am not sure as going abroad is not an option for me.

A mate of mine at Easy who went through the CTC scheme 3 years ago when it was a better deal said to me a few weeks ago that cadets are now being sent to Lyon to work, they aren't even given accomodation whilst there, so you have groups of 3 sharing one hotel room, beggers belief doesn't it one on earlies, one on lates,one on days off etc... not exactly condusive to restful sleep and being alert at work..:ugh: But as long as Easyjet are happy as they save a few ££££'s.
God help this industry it is truly :mad:!!

rumour has it, BALPA meeting being held at the Flying Tavern, Charlwood Road, Gatwick on Jan 4th 3 till 6.30 to talk to potential cadets...

Potential Oxford Easy cadets or potential CTC Easy cadets? It can't be both as they have completely different deals.

We need to petition BALPA and make the general public aware of what is going on. In the USA they are at least starting to talk about stamping out pay to fly and the hiring of inexperienced cadets over FOs with plenty of experience.

I was made redundant in the Summer with a great deal of time on both 'Le Bouse' and turbine, I haven't had a sniff at a job since. I'm seriously starting to worry that the industry will result in the right hand seat being available to cadets with enough cash to fund their 'hobby' for 6-12 months before the next lot of fresh faced, dough eyed kids come in and take it from them. Then what? We'll see people paying for another 500-1000 hours on type, then paying for a command upgrade!

We need to follow the American's lead on this. The public have been made aware of what is going on with pay to fly at places like the Gulfstream Academy for Gulfstream Airlines etc. Now the FAA are changing things. Luckily my wife is a yank and as soon as the economic tide starts to change I will be hauling myself out of this car crash that is the UK airline industry and I'll head to the USA to be paid 60% of what I used to be on over here.

Thank God I have other sources of income, otherwise who knows where I'd be right now.

Pattern?
 

There's an interesting link to an article on Bloomberg in this tread about Gulfstream Airlines which has some eerie similarities to what has also been going on in aviation on this side of the Big Pond; heavily indebted pilots through pay-for-flying schemes living on minimum wage, thus allowing more managerial leverage to pushing the commercial envelop, pilots sleeping in cars/crash pads displaced from families through long commutes and the redefining of limits to targets.

The only thing of which we've been spared in Europe so far (thank God!) are fatal accidents, although a certain Irish airline certainly had it's share of 'interesting experiences.'

Is there a pattern here? Is this the future of aviation, or are we different from Americans, where EU companies are continually able to squeeze more and more out of their employees whilst maintaining the same (or perhaps even better?) level of safety? :confused:

It would be interesting to see what kind of opinion (if they even have one!) European regulators have about these pay-for-flying schemes, the interweaving (although through different commercial entities) of training with commercial flying, and it's potential impact on safety... :suspect:

Easy have got complacent and with the deal they are offering it's only a matter of time before there is an incident or accident. What they are hoping is to get high quality cadets like the ones that CTC used to pump out when there was a decent deal on the table. What they are likely to get are the worst of what is out there; like what they got from their association with ATP. Ryanair are offering a less terrible deal right now so they will have first choice on those with the money and easy will be left with what remains. My Travel got themselves into a similar situation with Sigma, pay to fly pilots a few years ago and it ended in tears. By offering a truly awful deal, they managed to recruit a truly awful pilot who managed to cause serious damage to one of their aircraft. Easy have no chance of keeping standards up if they follow this path.

I think any change/stop to these schemes is likely to come from aircraft insurers or regulation from the CAA. The public could not give a toss. Most of them think that the "co-pilot" is not able to take control of the aircraft anyway and as long as there is a "qualified pilot" to do all of the flying then everything is okay.

Excellent news if that is the case, but how many are going to turn up? If finances are so tight for these folks, then showing an interest in BALPA and paying subs will be well down their list of priorities.

Quoting one gem from Mr Langley's letter:

Such refreshing honesty!

Don't fear to protect your T&Cs. This pilot job is very demanding. Eventhough it is despised by several poorly grown directors who only think in terms of figures crunched from an excel spreadsheet. BIG DEAL ! But then they have no idea what they're talking about. I used to be a director myself. That really is no big challenge. I have met with many dumb directors who were there just because they had the right networks. Being a director takes absolutely nothing more than flying an airplane, and very certainly much less. Believe me ! I've seen directors making so much more money than you all for so much less skills.

While some directors (who make outrageous amounts of money for doing nothing outstanding) dream to have you on **** money, you must not feel your job takes less competence than theirs. Everybody here must fight for conditions even if it means crossing a bit of money out of the "take home" in the short run.

Do you people realise what portion of the cost structure our incomes represent, hence a portion of our incomes ? Having pilots 10%, 20% or even 50% paid less would only yield marginally cheaper tickets. This LCC policy has gone too far and it makes no sense anymore.

Not to mention the bleeding of pilots workforce once business kicks back in. What do they think ? Do they believe pilots will forget about the way they've been treated in harsh times ? Pilots will be leaving for greener pastures on the first opportunity, even if they're bonded for many of them. Pilots have always wanted to make more money and always will. Easyjet will then have to produce so much efforts to catch up on the draining workforce this will erase several times the laughable costs cuts made before. Many airlines will thank EZ for taking care of their new pilots during the economic crisis. Now that's a strategy : having a grab on competitors' pilots, cheap to train and expensive for the competitor to replace.

Anyway, fear nothing. Aim at the longer run. Have no hang-ups. Take no bargains for your job is very special. So are your skills. Bind management to have those cadets hired on a fair deal. A finance graduate will make good money and surely would never sign up for such crap contracts.

Be proud !

So where are the likes of Norman SF and other Easy captains? The shock at the beginning has worn off and you're now in acceptance? Or has apathy set in? Don't let these pointless, by very definition worthless and utterly otiose dullards fly on behalf of your company and worm their way in - the industry doesn't want them, hence the reason their parents need to pay for them to 'have a go'.

Happy new year to one and all.

TheBeak - NSF is right here. I can assure you that no one is more bothered than I am about what has happened with the Oxford and CTC deals. Behind the scenes, BALPA are on the case - but they are fighting a war on about 6 fronts. They have my unequivocal support over this issue and I will gladly do my bit to fight against this outrageous situation. This is truly the nadir of easyJet behaviour toward their employees and clearly an overt attack on all our futures. I am totally and utterly opposed to what is happening and will do my bit when the time comes - and come it will. How the people who thought these schemes up sleep in their beds at night I do not know. I confess to feeling utterly embarrassed at what is happening here and will take part in any opposition our representatives consider necessary to stop it. My own view is that this must be opposed if we are to remain credible. Regardless of your position on unions and BALPA, this situation surely must ring alarm bells in every single professional pilot. The depths to wish our company is falling simply beggars belief, but that is nonetheless where we are.

My one hope is that our dire Flt Ops Director goes with our CEO - he is a man without a conscience and his continued presence within the organisation has become a source of great discontent to many. I do not expect him to be here next Christmas - nonetheless I fear he may leave with his pockets stuffed with our money and a pile of high value share options. Not bad for one of the key architects of the great fuel hedging catastrophe - who says incompetence does not pay?