I have heard mention that Easyjet actually 'need' 200 FOs, is this for real? With only 6 new aircraft coming online? I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about signing up for this. Come on, this is a joke of a scheme. Where do these people find their money? It can only be from their parents homes. I was lucky enough to earn excellent money prior to flying in order to pay for my training, I don't believe everyone can afford 140Ks worth of payments though - it's insane.

And people say Ryanair are crooks....

Are they still planning on hiring FO's through the "normal" TRSS method, or is this rip off scheme going to put paid to that as well? I know there are plenty of high time turboprop guys who have been hammering ezy with CVs throughout this downturn and got no news, it's a real kick in the teeth for them if this scandalous nonsense with Oxford and CTC kids becomes the only way into the company now :ugh:

Lucky Sky Todler,

Who is the cheapest one to press the button and do fuel checks in cruise? The experienced pilot TRSS or the bloody cadet fron CTC, Oxford, Jerez, etc ?..

Who is more likely to put the trouser down and accept ****e salary and ****e conditions to fly the "big toy" ? The experienced pilot or the other one ?

Who is the most expensive to train ? the experienced pilot or the cadet who will need more sim, more line training? (remember, those private schools are here to make monney, not to offer a dream for free)

Finally what does low cost means ? is it compatible with high paid crews doing 2 sectors a day or hourly paid crew ?

easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster :)

I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.:eek:

Yes the ryan deal is better now, but when old pikey gets wind of these watch this space....

these 2 airlines will both systematically destroy FO's - no way will Pikey continue with the same contract when he finds out, he will drop his t+c, and after he does again, give it a few months and easy do the same.

The only way to recover from this spiral descent is not to take these deals!

Think about it, when shops cant sell a shirt, it goes into sale. If new FO's refuse this slavery, money goes up.

Is there no lawyer around here that can examine the contract, it must be below min wage.

A great deal
 

Please do not dismiss this deal, I have also heard a rumour that it includes the following:

- video tape of your first take-off & landing
- photo opportunity outside the aircraft, in a unique EZY frame
- signed certificate from the captain
- opportunity to make tannoy announcements in your best pilot voice
- graduation dinner on finish with your fellow aces

:DFANS. I have to agree.

This deal seems to degrade low houred cadets to 'toursit stlye sight seeing trips' that cost an arm and a leg. Or 12.

I've said this before on Pprune, no economic graph is one directional. Let's hope the turn in this graph will be upon us ASAP, and then T&C's will follow suit. Could be a while though.

I think it its totally shameful and makes a utter mockery of those who get involved in this pay to work scheme.

How come the European commission has never questioned the validity of this? The CAA ? Why havent the the Newspapers ever published a story of this practice?

I'm sure there must be a hack out there willing to highlight this immoral practice by shaming all parties involved.

At a time when BA are going on strike this would make a great story me thinks.

:confused:

Uni

I'm not condoning this type of deal in any way whatsoever, but before all us pilots feel hard done by then have a look at this:

Graduates 'paying £8,000 for internships' - Telegraph

unfortunately in Gordon Browns brave new world, this now appears to be the norm in getting 'work' in any industry.

Obviously it is all unsustainable and will all go pear shaped at some point - but when? 1 year, 10 years? who the hell knows.

Can you imagine newly qualified Doctors paying for 3 year temp con-tracts, where £'s per hour are awarded for an unkown period of time!?

Doctors have a 100% fail rate; everyone dies at some point.
Pilots must have a 0% fail rate....

Pilots are not doctors.....
Pilot training had NVQ status
ATPL was NVQ level 4 = ( HNC / HND)

I think it is important to have a sense of what is true and what is not. Loathe as I am to admit it, right now anyone who has any choice whatsoever should not darken the door of easyJet but go straight to Ryanair. Tragically, for new joiners, Ryanair are significantly better. That does not mean they are good employers - it does mean easyJet are signficantly worse for anyone outside the protection of the union (which right now are all crews joining from CTC/Oxford etc).

All of the above is true. What is not true are the ridiculous assertions that

I have always tried to give a balanced view on these forums - part of that is telling the truth about where we are at the moment. Right now easyJet is about as bad an employer for new pilots as you could find on the planet. However, not all Ryanair pilots have better incomes than easyJet's - many do not. Also at easyJet we fly brand new Airbuses which the overwhelming majority of ex-737 pilots much prefer. We have a fantastic safety culture, great access to computer performance calculations etc and better operational support. I work at Gatwick and would challenge you to find any airline in the world that has a better route network than we do in terms of variety and breadth. I have worked there 6 years and have still not flown to all our destinations. I have also looked at Ryanair's roster, which I do not knock in any way as it has a number of plus points. Nonetheless, given a straight choice, I would choose ours. That, folks, is a balanced view on the situation and I hope the more rational readers here will be able to tell truth from fiction.

cjd; I'm not comparing Dr.s to CTC cadets. I have numerous friends who have slogged through 7+ years of hard graft to become pillars of society, and I'm proud to be their friend.

My point is that, like medicine, an aviation career is an expensive, long slog, ultimate vocation. And it is dreadful that the aviation career is becoming so degraded that it no longer rewards hard work but rewards deep pockets with expensive contracts. . .

I'm on the same page as you my friend!

Norman is right, of course, but I think the more tragic thing is that a man of his honesty and decency works an organisation that conceives of its relations with him so thinly, that his commitment to it is in no way matched by their commitment to him.

Anyone possessed of a longer term view of such things as are ours in the air will draw their own conclusions. It is my hope that, in the fullness of time, so too will Norman. Much as I'm sure it irks you to hear it for now, old friend, you have the heart and soul of a Ryanair pilot. Do come on over, won't you?

All the best for now,

Leo.

Sh*t or Sh*te
 

Quote:
easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif
I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...milies/eek.gif


Pretty much like saying: I don't like elephant sh*t, i prefer the dog sh*t
:mad::mad::mad:

Windcheck,

Who are the ones who CAN actually try and put a stop to this? the inexperienced OAA cadet looking to fly a shiney new jet or the experienced EZY pilot?

It's all good bitching about the cadets but the people in the industry are the people who can actually make a difference. Too many old beans sit comfy in the LHS not giving a toss about how the industry is going in terms of the RHS because it doesn't affect them. Well the T+C's are being erroded from the bottom up.

No, people have to train somewhere sonny jim. Oxford are an opportunistic bunch of parasites. CTC had an agreement to supply pilots to Easyjet. Everyone has been aware that that was coming to an end this Winter. Oxford have gone in there and said they have a bunch of 'young, dumb and full of cum' rich mummy and daddies children who would happily pay for a TR with their company. Easy have probably suggested something in line with Ryanairs TR deal. Oxford, to seal the deal, have offered something that bit worse, knowing the calibre of the individuals they are dealing with, in order to get a 'foot in the door' like the rest of us. For CTC, the rest is history. What both Oxford and CTC have done, contrary to how they probably feel, has made themselves look very silly and devalued and degraded their own product.

Please could one of the 115 'poor, you don't know me, I worked for my money (course you did)' Oxford space cadets that signed up for this deal come on here and explain themselves......if their balls have dropped yet.


Just like it.

:ok: Spot on, old sport! So to avoid the unnecessary tragedy, the people working for employer treating them like excrementa, should be of low moral standards themselves and ready to stab their employer in the back at the first opportunity.

The strategy used by Brookfield/Ryanair, and seemingly emulated by EasyJet/CTC, is a valid one (for the MGT) provided that a) crisis is going to deepen, everything goes to hell, anyway and it's time to grab as much as you can before everything collapses, or b) crisis will become permanent and therefore used as a stick to discipline the workforce. If upturn ever comes, some airlines will find out that pilotless transport aeroplane hasn't been certified, let alone made yet. Not to their top management chagrin, of course. Their retirement provisions are quite raid-proof and able to last them for a couple of centuries or so.

Last weekend's "Lunch with the FT" column was very interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, now that you mention the "Eastern European cheap pilots menace", do you have any idea how many pilots are waiting behind the rusty iron curtain to be unleashed upon flightdeck jobs in Western Europe? I'm asking because seemingly Roland Berger is quite clueless about it and anyone following their advice is bound to get hurt.

What is currently happening is not far removed from the status in the early 1990s. The economy was in recession and jobs became more scarce. Those that were hiring paid peanuts for inexperienced pilots - ask anyone who worked for CityFlyer Express about the poverty wages on offer and they will no doubt tell you how bad it was. British Midland - as they were then known - did a scheme whereby pilots paid for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job thereafter and you had to have passed at least the technical exams to get an interview with any turboprop operator.

As an out of work pilot I considered all the options and decided to go down the instructor route until things got a little better - in any case paying for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job was not financially possible for myself. The end result was that I did eventually get that first step onto the airline career - almost 4 years after gaining a CPL/IR and frozen ATPL - and I am now a Captain with easyJet. Along the way I passed the ARB for both the HS748 and Shorts 360, but flew neither. Others decided to pay for the type rating and worked for the appropriate operator, though in some instances several months after they completed the course.

The point that I am making is that either you take the offer that is on the table or you find some other way into the profession. If you do not or cannot accept what is on the table, unfortunately there will always be someone else who can and will. Until people stand together and unanimously say no, these schemes will exist. Go instructing, try to find yourself some work flying a light twin, how about flying a Caravan round Africa? Who knows, you may actually enjoy it! There are plenty of things you can do other than jump straight into the RHS of a shiny jet, and most of them are more fun!

I would have thought the EASYJET CC would never have a better time to throw some weight about.

CEO departing, no finance director, should be very straight forward if they have the bottle.......

The end is nigh......
 

Unbelieveable.

I never thought we would see the day that such things were common place.

Whether you are blue, orange, pink, green or neutral coloured, this is truly shockingly awful.

115 signed up? MUGS!!!!:mad:

What? They may not have paid very well... but they did pay you, not vice versa.

And its one thing to be paid peanuts for flying for an startup outfit with a handful of turboprops, its another thing entirely to be paying 10's of thousands for the privilege of working for a major jet operator for a few months.

A lot of the CFE folks did a year or two on peanuts and then moved on to jet operators. Or stayed put and got commands, and pretty soon jet commands within CFE. In otherwords there was a career path available. Now, even if you could find a job with a small outfit, you'd be stuck there because the path further up the totem pole is blocked by people paying to occupy RHS Jets.

Its vastly different!

It is indeed in so many ways.

This Oxford scheme is by far and away worse than any scheme I have ever heard of by a light year. It's obviously worse than the CTC scheme and some way off the ATP scheme, the Eagle Jet scheme and a Pyramid scheme. It's all a big scheme!

For the love of safety, flying, money, the future and god will the trainers at Easyjet PLEASE refuse to train these tools......these underselected, thick, useless, cretinous, pointless (because they need to pay to do a job - their only purpose is as a form of revenue generation), impatient, RayBan aviator wearing, wet look gel using tools.

Since one of the 115 applicants hasn't yet developed the brass ones to comment please could some trainers from Easy say what part they'll play in preventing this. It's standing by and letting bad things happen that allows bad things to happen.

What would your suggestions be, Beak?

Say that you simply aren't willing to fly with these 'pilots'. End of. The company can not operate without its trainers. Why are train drivers and postal workers willing to do this but pilots aren't? You, the pilots in a position of power with true experience on your licences, are contributing to the ruin of OUR futures as pilots through your indifference. Why would you be doing it? So that the right people, through selection and experience rather than their parents reckless borrowing/ wealth, are brought into the RHS of commercial airliners and then, in due course, into the LHS of the aircraft. REFUSE to fly with these people. It feels good to be good. Please.

Prevention is the best form of cure, stop this before it has actually happened because once it has the only thing that will stop it will be the loss of aircrafts and lives. And I don't mean that to sound wishy washy.

There is a tsunami of callow yoofs with stars in their eyes out there, willing to pay to become slaves.
It is naive and unrealistic to expect the low cost carriers to ignore this.
T&Cs for all crewmembers have deteriorated during the recent boom years.
So, it is not exactly rocket science predicting how things are likely to pan out during this recession.
Happy Christmas :ok:

I'm going to try and be careful how I word this.
Beak. You are right on so many things here. You're right that it's not a good scheme. You're right that it belittles those that do it. You're right (IMHO) that at least a part of the way to stop it is for LTCs etc to simply refuse to fly with them. You're right that it erodes everything from the bottom up. Dammit, you're even right that it creates a "me first" attitude that encourages people to take whatever edge they can get. As normal you have put generally quite an erudite, balanced view.

However. Where you have your head wedged firmly up your own arse is in your assessment and assumptions about the OAA grads who went forward for it. In fairness I think it's because you don't have visibility of the whole picture....but in jumping to a conclusion, you yourself show exactly half the problem....everyone in this industry THINKS they know and is 100% sure they're correct and everyone else is wrong.

FWIW, I am one of the 115 that "went forward" for it. The reason for this is that (not even the guys that work at the school) we were not initially told anything approaching the full terms and conditions or who the operator was....the 115 (and this btw is assuming the figure is correct....I simply don't know) responded to an open and generic email from Oxford stating they had an opportunity and asking who had the capability to self fund a TR for a position starting in Jan. That is ALL the 115 are guilty of - responding to a "we have an opportunity, are you interested?" email.

Only then, when 115 had expressed an interest were we then sent the full details, whereon the vast majority of those I know who had registered an interest backed off quicker than you can imagine. It's also interesting that the initially indicated cost went up significantly once the initial interest had been gathered.

IIRC you are in the region of 24 years old and claim to have self funded your training. Let's get one thing straight, there are very, VERY few careers that would have enabled you, by age 24, to have fully self funded flying training...and those that do exist would have required you to have more than a modicum of luck. Therefore, wind your sodding neck in and start realising how fortunate you are to be in zero debt, stop complaining that some others are in a better position that you and start getting the facts before you post your less well thought out comments.

FWIW - I spent well over a decade building a career that enables me to do this debt free, so not all OAA grads are "young, dumb and full of :mad:". Indeed, of the people I know who went forward some ARE funded by their parents, a couple have secured loans in principal, one owned his own company, one sold his house and several have worked for many years.

For someone who generally has there head screwed on, this is just pure arse gravy and is a detriment to you, belittling your obvious intelligence. The guys/girls that have gone forward for this ARE going to be sore of bottom for a long time.

However people read crap like some of the assumptions you have commited to screen and instantly think "well, why the hell should I wait my turn - no one is going to help me out, they're just going to hurl insults" Indeed this whole industry seems totally set out for the self serving, so why do you blame or show indignation when anyone does exactly that.

It IS a tragedy that Easy - an employer I would have loved to work for even 6 months ago - is now lowering itself to these levels purely because they can. It's also a tragedy that OAA have decided to involve themselves in this scheme. Both companies will, it is my belief, in the fullness of time, come to regret this.

Rant over.

On a more generic point, however, the real sadness of this scheme is that suddenly if a "pay £20k for a TR and a full time job" offer came up, it's looking like a very good deal.

I am an easyJet Training Captain and I can assure anyone reading this that no one, but no one, who flies for easyJet has the slightest time for this scheme. The other thing that has become apparent in my discussions of the last few days is that the people who devised this, and similar, schemes have no idea the strength of feeling that has risien up at grass roots level. Even the most die-hard union haters are realising the disaster that is facing us and are starting to take a big interest. I can only echo clanger32's posts which are from a man facing the most difficult of choices.

This crisis at easyJet, and that is what it is, has its origins in the desire of a few key members of our management team to de-unionise at the earliest opportunity. They are therefore doing everything they can to ensure that there will be no new permanent employees for years to come. Under the watchful eye of our truly dreadful Flt Ops Director, easyJet is rushing headlong downhill into a major industrial confrontation with its staff. It is not what I would have wanted, but I now fully accept the likeliehood of it. I will be offering full, unreserved support to BALPA when the time comes - and come it will. The tragedy of choosing bonus-hunting, short-termists to run the airline is that when favours are required then none are forthcoming. That has been ably demonstrated in the last few days when enormous flexibility and good will has been required, and little or none has been forthcoming. Looking after your staff pays dividends in the end - a fact easyJet management have conspicuously failed to grasp. It requires the active teamwork of pilots, cabin crew, engineers, dispatchers and management when times are hard - all we now have are increasingly beligerent pilots who are itiching for a fight. From what I hear, our Flt Ops Director is champing at the bit for a conflict with the pilots, so the signs are not good. I dare to hope that one of Andy Harrison's parting gestures will be to arrange for the gentleman concerned to 'to seek fresh challenges outside of easyJet'. He does not enjoy the confidence of his staff and is widely seen as the cause of all the current difficulties. His continued presence is a barrier to resolution of the numerous serious, but totally unnecessary, difficulties that have arisen in the last year or so. He has surrounded himself with 'yes' men who will not stand up to him and the manning crisis of these last few days is proof positive of the mess we are in. EasyJet should never, ever be talked about in the same breath as Ryanair, but instead we have managed to surpass them in our race to the bottom of the barrel - and that is some achievement.

I am priveleged to work with top-rate, professional and quality people when I go to work. My day-to-day job is great, but I am unable to sit back and watch the outrageous terms and conditions that are being imposed on gullible young people from CTC and OAA. Their careers are over before they have begun and they cannot see it. I am ashamed at what we are trying to do, and am willing to take part in whatever action may be required to act on behalf of our pilots to recover the situation. As I say, the first step is the removal of a couple of key and culpable individuals to restore the confidence of the workforce. Then we can start from there to work together again in the battle.

And the reason they can do this is because of people like you... :ugh:

Not surprising, after Vrieswijk & the rest have watched the recent events play out over at Nigel's.

Would "middle england" really have much sympathy if action went forward ?

No wonder their looking for conflict....

I assume the one "champing at the bit" is the one that resembles "brains" from Thunderbirds (strings still attached last time I saw him trying to dance at a Xmas do as well :D )
It was fairly obvious from his time with Mikeys Mob that he had gone seamlessly from being a pilot to being a pilot hater, or perhaps just a shytster. . . well if it's the same one I am thinking of you will no doubt know where I am coming from.
Had to write him a letter of apology once for sleeping -in and missing a positioning flight, he didn't actually give a toss that I missed the flt, but he did SO want that letter to add to his collection of cringing apologies.
Maybe used to take them to bed for stimulation ?
No use to man nor beast, but, a nasty piece of works, for that you will have a tough time convincing anyone to kick him out though.

Public support is totally irrelevant. Why would a strike need to be popular with Joe public?

He is not the only one chomping at the bit.
Lets crush his train set together, and sent him home in his clogs.
:E:E
Just a thought,how many airlines are out there with no pilots??

Maybe a common theme is emerging?? I didnt realise the hated Easy manager was a former Mickies gang member.

Funny the guys at Monarch have the exact same gripe at one of there elite managers formerly of the "gang". But then they also have a lot of BA fodder to poor devils!

Brenoch - that is very harsh. There are no doubt guys like IIRC who 'self-funded' at age 24 (don't think so!). If it is true, then he is in the wrong game as anyone who can earn that sort of money at that age needs to get a proper job in the City or something. The little rich kids who Daddy saw all right are a relatively small part of this. clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Even Oxford Aviation has stuffed them in taking part in this shameful exercise. This is like blaming child prostitutes in Thailand for taking the 'work' and thereby creating the business. That is the wrong approach as you have to fight the source rather than the end product.

Remeber guys, not even 10 years ago Ryanair was recruiting experienced FOs with a minimum of 1500 hours on a jar25 aircraft. Those FOs were then offered a 5 years bond for their B738 type rating. Now this is history, ryanair recruits only low houred FO and that's it. easyjet has always been delayed in following Ryanair's idea, but here we are ;)

Low Cost are faced with serious financial difficulties. dont hope to come back with the good old days.
And what do I think about Balpa?? look at my location and you 'll find it out :} :ok:

You can earn the money by 24 and self fund - and yes it was in the City. Norman, it takes two to tango and the bigger man to walk away. Clanger, you must not take my words personally (having read your posts they aren't aimed at you) but in my experience they are a fair generalisation. I am sick and tired of meeting greasy haired (to the point they were told to wash their hair before entering the sim and using shared headsets), Ray Ban avaitor wearing, Citroen Saxo driving, BSc in Aviation Management holding, I think I am something different because I have first time passes (I hate to break it to you but so do many others and it counts for sh1t) who are having their dreams funded at the expense of their parents financial security and at the expense of currently unemployed, experienced pilots careers (because though they can offer the experience they can not offer the cost effectiveness of a PTF, impatient chump). I apologise for being graphic or rude but this scheme is the 10 tonne oak tree that breaks the camels back.

The two major LoCos posted very good figures relative to every other airline - Ryanair 200 million Euros profit and Easy a before tax profit of 44 million. The future? At this rate non existent.

So you think it would be sensible for trainers to take their own little bit of industrial action to sort the problem out. You obviously haven't been in aviation very long. :ugh:

Or you have been in aviation a little bit too long. If the old school methods have brought us to this then I say they need to change.