TheBeak - not quite sure I understand your metaphors, but if one is that wealthy at age 24 you are in the wrong game!

wind check - your last 2 posts are, frankly, embarrassing. Regarding your location, it says an enormous amount about you. You cannot just make wild unsubstantiated statements like "Low Cost are faced with serious financial difficulties". That is clearly not true - the two most profitable carriers in the UK this last year were easyJet and Ryanair. As this thread is discussing, both these carriers have serious issues over employment practices, but they are two of the most financially sound airlines in the world. If you want to have strong opinions, that's fine - at least be able to back them up with credible argument. Please feel free to disagree with me but do not just come up with ludicrous statements and expect to be taken seriously. Better to be silent and thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Then I suggest you speak to an employment lawyer and ask the ramifications of such an act. My young family would not appreciate me being so gung-ho. When the Easyjet pilots support each other (30% turnout in the last ballot) then things may improve.

Not sure old school has ever been directed at me, should get a laugh from my mates. However if you want to talk about old school I don't think old school pilots would have ever let it get this far. This is a "new" pilot thing.

Norman,

Ryanair has just cancelled the purchase of further 200 aircraft, they know that the financial difficulties are coming soon and the petrol will cost more and more money. If the tickets become too expensive, then people wont buy them and will stay home instead of visiting europe for any short break. BUT low cost airlines need their aircraft too be at least 85% full, if not, they loose money. And this is going to happen!
The best idea to compensate is to get cheap staff and productive staff paid on the hours the work.

How can you say low houred cadets are dangerous if they hold a JAA/CAA/IAA licence and passed succesfully a type rating. Ryanair is full of cadets, but also Swiss, Luftansa, Air france, Cathay, etc...

30 years ago there were not so many flight school in europe, medical exams were more difficult to pass hence there were not so many cadets behind the door with a credit card and the trouser down. It's too late to reverse and go backwards. Aviation is ****** up.

Ryanair cancelled nothing. They could not reach a deal with Boeing who would not bow to their bullying.

Petrol will cost more and more? So what sort of transport aircraft do you fly sonny? Maybe you should head off back to your MS flight sim. :ugh:
Utter bollox.

Ryanair is full of contractors who pay for their qualifications to fly company assets. I have said it before and I will say it again, if a company needs to get charity from it's employees then they do not deserve to be in business.

However;

if pilots are too stupid to see what is happening to the career, the T&Cs and the long game then they deserve all they get.

Why the hell are none of the pilot unions standing up against this sort of shyte? Probably because the very concept of industrial action is regarded as a bit lefty and Arthur Scargill.

Well boys and girls, if you don't wake up to the reality pretty bloody soon, the UK aviation industry is going to go the same way as the UK coal industry. You already have a foreign flagged airline claiming to carry more UK pax than BA and using cheap East European labour to keep costs down, now you have EZY looking East to fill the front two seats with cheap labour.

Someone is going to have to stand up against this, and it is going to have to be soon.

Option 1:

I could go out tomorrow and buy a JAA A320 TR for £20k then go to Eagle Jet and purchase 200 hours for approx £10k (subject to negotiation). £30k all in.

Based on the hatred aimed towards Eagle Jet on here (I'm happy to say I've been party to it) let us compare with the Oxford offer:

I do this scheme with OAA - £34k for 75 hours

Someone want to tell me the difference in concept between the two?

Let's not miss seeing the woods because of the trees here. This is the exact same/worse than what Eagle Jet offer, which almost everyone on here (a first for PPRuNe it seems) is united in hatred and criticism for. Only difference is Oxford appear to be legitimising it due to their name in the industry thus far (I think its lost quite a bit because of their desire to appear to be the only school still getting new students jobs).

They are selling a tidy profit and perception here, perception in the eyes of those who would consider them that they have an edge compared to the competition.

To the management of Oxford - Today's students are tomorrows chief pilots, most people tend to remember when they've been arse raped. And for someone who hasn't or would consider it, I will remember they marketed this and sold it through my career.

What has been described here is nothing especially new...if you want to be an airline pilot, and there are no company funded schemes available, pony up the cash.
End of story.

Don't have the cash to pony up, or....do not desire to do so?
Find another way to make a living/find another profession.

It really is that simple.
Bit*hing and moaning will get you absolutely nowhere.
And, company management couldn't care less.

I fully support the above opinions stating that pay to fly is destroying this industry be it CTC/Brookfield/ATP. One also has to question Balpa's willingness to fight this cancer from spreading.I notice a couple of months back they carried a 3 page article in their 'Log' magazine on the damage CTC is doing, whereas this month they have a full page advert on page 11 advertising the OAA APPfirst officer program. Now if what i read on prune is true concern Oxford and this latest pay-to-destroy-the-career involvement with EZY, well talk about talking their 30 pieces of silver.......

Thankfully for now, i can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have a significant amount of jet time and current rating, and not be able to get a sniff of a job as their is some 22 year old willing to pay to sit in the right seat and work for a packet of crisps and a sandwich per day, whilst also remain outside the remit of Balpa, and then crying when the poo hits the fan and permenant contracts are withdrawn. My genuine sympathies go to those globespan/virgin/excel etc.guys and gals still waiting to find employment and their current plight. I hope the new year brings you the justice you deserve and hope Balpa manage to get their act together and stop all this.

75 hours will get you nowhere anyway. It's absolutely the MINIMUM experience.

That's what they could have said about telegrams and then came telephones and e mail. That's what they could have said about horses and cars and then came along cars. That's what the said about slavery......and now it's coming back through peoples indifference and self preservation.

411A I really couldn't care a less if you have flown all the DCs from 2 to 10 and all the Boeings from 707 to 787. I could care a less if you are the Chief Pilot of BA, where BA stands for British Airways or Bugger All. I couldn't care a less if you have 200 hours or 200000 hours......you get the picture. You are well respected on these forums and your posts are specifically some of the posts, if I see them next to a new post, that I make an 'effort' to read. You are clearly one of the more experienced of us. You clearly have/ had some power with an airline. For you to have the attitude towards this that you have, demonstrates why we are so deep in the sh1t.

So the 19 year old blonde girl called Tattie next to you with the big cans and the desire to be srogged up in 4 years, who has a dad who is a director at Nomura and will pay anything his little girl wants (regardless of the fact the price apparently went up when the unprecedented, ludicrous demand for it was seen), just so she can be yet another empowered woman to reserve her full time seat in an airline and then work part time (and that's nothing against women, I am of all people am not sexist and this thread doesn't need to go down that road - it's just a powerful example to my mind) versus the guy with 1000 hours VC-10 time flying in the RAF, 800 hours flying A320s and a couple of kids is left high and dry, without a job and without a chance because......wait for it......he wont 'pony up the cash'. Nice. Is this what Darwin was talking about when he said 'only the strong will survive'? If you think so then his words have gone right over your head. Someone elses wealth is artificial strength. Its need shows your weakness. He also flexibility and adaptability is paramount to 'survival'. He didn't mean like this. This is like when a cat toys with its prey and then doesn't eat it. Not being flexible.

They will do when their crews, that are meant to work to a 30 minute turn around all of a sudden seem to be going slower. Or their crews develop some nuts and refuse to work until they are paid their worth.

411A, I am assuming you have been in this game a while. Have you not seen that your salary in the early 90s was about 80K a year and now......in just shy of 2010 it is......80K a year......if you are lucky. And going backwards. Nevermind, it would require you to make a difference for the future. Yet you'll so happily recycle plastic milk bottles as part of the Kyoto agreement. I'm going to let you in to a secret, but shhhhh, you are making the square root of f all difference to anything and if you would just be flexible from your current age old mindset and strong with it you might find you can make a positive difference, together with your fellow, job loving piloting workforce. I ask you all again, PLEASE do not accept this. Easyjet pilots, don't just think you're doing your bit by posting on here, it's not enough, as 411A rightly points out, airline management don't care......in fact they probably love it. If they aren't frightened by what you can do, show them what effect it will have when you don't do something. Abscence makes the heart grom fonder and all that.

This is a very unstable situation, that is, when displaced from its neutral point it will continue on in this direction until someone or some people act on it and correct it. It needs rectifying - before it's happened. What am I saying, these guys have probably started TRs haven't they?

Norman sorry I should have quoted what I was replying with metaphors to.

Is the bit I was refering to. You remove one of the parties and there is no 'Tango' to be danced. Be the big man/ woman and say no to this.

"clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea."

Is it not the case that the people signing up to this scheme would have started integrated training 12 - 18 months ago when the world was already heading full steam into the biggest recession we've seen for decades. Theyre now saying they cant get a job in aviation??:confused:

There is another way in, its called modular training at half the price. It leaves one with half the debt and without the need to find a jet job asap in order to start repaying huge loan payments. Hindsight perhaps, but the writing was on the cards 2 years ago that there would be no flying jobs around in 2009(and probably none for another 2 years).

guys, don't cry, it is the same sh1t everywhere.

Welcome to Global Pilot Training Center


:}

How many of these Oxford numptys are getting an A320 TR with a whole 75 hours as their main Christmas present from Santa? Pathetic.

Nope - I trained with Clanger and we started in early Aug 2007 - before even NR headed south and we signed up for the course around March 2007. You would have to be a dedicated follower of economics to be in a position to say "No thanks, not for me" back then.

The scam - sorry should that read Scheme? - of OAA is open to those who graduated up to 18 months ago which would be people who started as long ago as 2006.

Yeah im referring to people who would have started integrated training within the last 18 months to 2 years. The writing on the wall was blatantly obvious for people to see. Mid 2007 and things were still quite rosey.

MIKECR - your comments are misplaced and not helpful to anyone. Let us say that one accepts your argument, and I do not, that the modular route is the way to go. What job will a modular pilot now find himself in the running for that clanger32 would not? Let me help you with the answer - absolutely none. There fact is that the only way into aviation right now is through these hideous schemes that are under discussion - their way or the highway.

411A - as a near-professional PPRuNer I am surprised to find you weighing in here on matters that you manifestly know so little aboout. Indeed only the other day I read you proudly never, ever set foot on UK soil to avoid our security staff and all the stress contact with them brings. The key thing you have missed here is that coughing up the cash does not guarantee you a job - it merely gives you a couple of years as a captain's mate at the front end of an airliner. Once your time is up you are replaced by the next candidate and therefore will never actually have a permanent job of any kind. Hardly a career move.

flapsfullretard - the feeling on the line about this dire scheme is extremely anti. Slightly oddly though, I understand that among next year's temporary FOs will be a number of BMI FO's who have been kicked out of LHR. I cannot verify that but at a recent meeting such a possibility was suggested. I genuinely wish you well in this very uncertain time. Very best of good fortune to you.

Sorry, I disagree Norman. These schemes are not the only way into aviation. The 'self improver'(whatever you want to call it these days) route still very much exists.

MIKECR - You are, of course entitled to disagree. How then, with your modular licence in hand, do you become an Airbus-rated First Officer at easyJet without the scheme under discussion? Because right now there is no other way into easyJet or Ryanair.

God you lot are bloody boring.

Find something fun to talk about its Christmas.

:ok:

Norman,

We could have a play on words here if you like. I was speaking about getting into "aviation" in general. That world of course, as we both know, stretches much further than Ryanair and easyjet. There are other shows in town that people aspire to, and not everyone has to be pigeon holed into this particular route. From what im seeing just now, the people(first job types) who are getting PAID flying jobs(the few that exist) at the moment are the self improver or young instructor types who are getting turboprop airline work.

Handflown... if you could just treat water for me while I hop out and celebrate, that'd be grand! :}

Norman, I think you are both pulling in different directions - because you sound like you have given up despite some of your words. Mike still sounds defiant against this crap. Norman, you don't owe anyone anything apart from yourself and your family if you have one. But, since you are one of the more vocal and approachable Easy trainers on here (though all trainers I know in person at Easy are very, very, very, very nice people) can I please ask, if there is any way, any how, you can try and stay focussed on this, don't lose energy on it, please do something otherwise I fear myself and my colleagues and the futures of proper people who wish to become, and continue to be a pilot for an airline, are numbered because of the selfish, mother-:mad:ing, cras, selfish, terribly thick, useless shells of human beings that wish to pursue this 'scheme'. If you possibly can please do your best to not let it happen it would be very well appreciated and very well respected. There has to at the very least be some middle ground.

Did you not hear what Clanger said? After offering this sh1t and seeing the unprecedented, ludicrous, laughable amount of desperate lemmings that displayed an interest, the terms dropped and the price went up.

No one lose energy on this, you'll be as good as a quitter. Don't stand by and let bad things happen. Don't just accept this crap.

In the game awhile, yes...a very long time.
As for the salary, sorry, no.
It increases every year simply because the type I presently fly has very few still currently active FD crew available (especially experienced Captains) so...what I demand, I get.

Airline bosses have figured out a long time ago that they can screw(salary, training-wise) the new guys/gals, and get away with it.
Repeatedly.

It is unlikely to change, in the short-medium term.
My advice?
Get used to it.

I am led to believe that Loganair have just put three FI's from Tayside Aviation on a TR for the SAAB, so what mikecr says could be right:ok:

Tayside Aviation ! ! at last a little bit of "feelgood" factor for Crimbo. I guess the "Gillespie factor" is alive and well? or they just recognised the calibre of the folk from there :rolleyes: :D he says , ever so modestly.

To all that passed by Lovats hallowed hangar, all the best for 2010. :ok:


Sorry, seriously off topic there. . . . BTW, Norman ,try and forget all this horrible horrible stuff at least long enough to get trashed for Christmas, like a "real" Scotsman ;)

New Year Wish.
 

The best thing that could happen in 2010 is that CTC, OAA, Eagle Jet and the other rip-off merchants all go to the wall. The airlines would then be forced to slowly re-absorb the experienced pilots over the next 5-6 years. T & C's would gradually stop declining too.

Aside from the irrelevant concept of fairness, there exists a gross imbalance in experience between left and right seat in many of the today's carriers, and consequently safety is threatened. There is no more room for inexperienced type-rated pilots, quite the reverse. Yet still they come.

No airline will voluntarily hire more expensive employees as First Officers when the possibility exists to make money from people who although qualified have zero experience and precious little airmanship to fall back on. (Even the talented ones.)

Sully got it right, but as an American, his views carry little weight with the biased and avaricious UK media. The state of play today is increasing danger for the airline passenger, caused by greed of the training organizations, airlines, and ultimately passengers. Stelios and O'Leary have much to answer for. And the world is not about to reverse it's catastrophic direction.

I fear that it will take a few aviation disasters before my wish starts to come true.

Flapsfullretard,

I think you know that Easy have a long list of people chapping on the door so I wouldn't hold your breath.

:confused:

Yeah have to agree with the above, even seeing it on a screen you still get a strong smell of BULLS**T. Now if you put COST above safety and drop the integrity we have the actual 5 toothpicks of Easy.:=:=:=:(

I only partly agree. As Johann Wolfgang von Goethe once said about slavery: None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free...

Sure, you are 'free' to sign a bad deal but the problem is that people don't get the full picture because of all this bullsh!t propaganda about "integrity," "teamwork" and "passionate."

As I've been preaching for years: this is not a career airline, a fact which is crystal clear to anyone who is able to look beyond the orange propaganda and bullsh!t.

Unfortunately it appears that some people want to be brainwashed, some people want to be enslaved and some people want to cling onto the hope that 'good cop' Andy will make all the bad cops go away. Keep on hoping! As we all know: hope dies last... :oh:

I hate to say "I told you so" but hey, here it goes: I TOLD YOU SO!!!

He may have pinched the sentiment from Jean Jacques Rousseau.

" Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains. Those who think themselves the master of others are indeed greater slaves than they."

The Social Contract 1762

God, please, no!!!!!
 

First of all, Pilots who run airlines.....

.....then pilots who want to run airlines, who are, really, philosophers.

"we're doomed!!!!!!" - Fraser, "Dad's Army", BBC circa 1979.

Safety - Noun
Teamwork - Noun
Pioneering - Gerund
Passionate - Adjective
Integrity - Noun

Very smooth. Who rites this? Illiterates?

deleted for use of no nonsense.

As opposed to one who will happily quote from a hackneyed telly programme, a real scholar.

Priceless.:D

al446,

It's called irony you saddo.

What's up? Loan repayments getting on top of you?

tell me guys,

how do you get the money for integrated and easyjet scheme?

60k+30+10 or 15K for food...over 100k?

how do you pay back and when?
what banks give you the money knowing the student will probably file bankrupt.

what's the point to fly 70 hours and be out? to go where? KLM, BA, Luft???

explain me!

Well, DUH! That's the whole point Sherlock! If this needs explaining, then you are either missing some IQ points, or you are just perfect for the average low-cost airline! ;)

p.s. isn't it marvelous how airlines can mix the contradicting requirements for safe aircraft operators on one hand, yet on the other hand want people to be totally reckless with zero situational awareness when it comes to money and T&C's? :ugh:

It's pointless bitching about this, the morons will have already begun their TRs. It's done. Close the thread. You missed the boat Easyjet big guns. It's very much your loss.

I have advised all of my family and friends not to fly with the airlines that do pay to fly such as mytravel, bmi etc.

Will be adding easyjet to that list.

Whats to stop some rich daddys boy from nigeria throwing a ton of money at such a scheme and getting potentially dangerous people sat at the front of british airliners!? MADNESS!!!!

fischerflyer
 

Agree totally. Perhaps the letter will look like this? - try and read in a West African scammers accent if you can;



Dear Sir Mr Wanabee,

Felicitations and most generous blessings to you and your gracious family at this most Christmas time.

It brings to me great honour to inform you that you have been selected as a winner in the easyJet Airlines plc, pay to fly, grand lottery (UK inc.).

The winners of this scheme do stand to the glorious benefit of Many, countless, millions of riches in British Pounds, Euros and maybe other currencies.

To avail yourself of these bountiful glories, you must first process to me a payment of £34,000. After the succesful process of your funds, the money milking training establishment at easyJet airlines plc/OAA will send you your entry to Nirvana continually in the abundant shape of an empty Airbus A319 rating.

The glorious and beneficial holder to this glorious adornment to the blue book will have the full right to be an easyJet contract pilot!!! Imagine!!! The terms and conditions are most excellent indeed!!! Nowhere in my imagination can I believe I can sleep 3 to a room. Only 3!! Such bountiful, blessed luck from the Lord.

Anyway, most best regards to you and I look forward to sharing with you, your most deserved and hard earned rewards from all your years of travails and labours to now.

With my prevailing best regards and soft landings (for me anyway),


Mr A.Leech

Spokesman, OAA Scheming Department

Please send remittance in British Currency to:

The Managing Director
Oxford Cash Bank
Kidlington
Oxon

Acc:12345678
S/C: 34-000.00
Ref: Mugs


Risk disclaimer: Please most definitely, please ignore this letter if:

a) You have any experience of previous scams;
b) you have recovered the use of your sanity after being brainwashed, or;
c) can spot a really **** deal at 1000 paces with your back turned and eyes shut.