easyjet
 

Hi,
I was just after you thoughts and opinions on the chances of a job with easyjet next year.

I'm currently a Captain on a Q400. I've got about another year of my bond left and was thinking of easyjet as a possible move. Projecting my hours forward to next march I'll have around 5500 or so. From what I hear the chances of a direct entry are slim to nil. So I'd be looking at a stint in the right hand seat.

My questions are.....

How long might I have to spend as an FO before command?
What are the chances of getting the base I want?

I'm asking about easyjet as the flying they do is about the same as what I do at the moment. ie sectors of around 1-2hrs. 2-4 rotations a day.

Thanks in advance

Homer J

Homer J,

you could start by using some initiative and looking here;

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ding-pool.html

Sorry to shatter your illusions!

Ivor:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Yea, had a look on there, most of the posts seemed to be from a few years ago, and the last few pages were all about CTC cadets(I'm assuming low houred, but might be wrong) on temp contracts. Is that the general theme with easy, or is it any different for relativly experienced folk?

Your best bet is go to the easyJet website - they have a detailed recruitment section, but don't expect anything until the economy picks up. As for bases, you go where your are told & then join the bid queue for the base you want. There are a lot of SFOs waiting for command right now.

HomerJ,

You are right, being a prop captain only forces you to start as an FO.

When you apply it might take a long time before they let you go to the interview and assesments.
Then you will have to swim in the holding pool for a very long time with the others that have been waiting for more than a year.

If you are then offered a job then you have to wait a minimum of 6 months before you can apply for the upgrade process.
That's provided your 2 previous sims have been above standard in order to join the process.
If accepted for the upgrade process you then have to complete this which can take more than a year, as in the summertime the upgrade process is temporarily frozen.
If you pass then you have to join the pool for a command course which to my best knowledge consists of 150 people at the moment.
With 20 temporary commands for this summer and a command list that gets longer and longer for every day that goes by I predict a very very very LOOOONG time of waiting for you :uhoh:

All of a sudden my current job is looking rather good. might be staying here for a while.

thanks for the info

The Flying Cokeman - excellent and accurate view of the current situation. My only question is whether you have underestimated the 150 guys currently on the command list - I am given to understand it is considerably larger than that. Nonetheless, as you rightly say, whatever size the list is, it is growing every day.

Homer_J - As others have said, there is no possibility right now of a permanent job at easyJet as an FO. In the past we have taken DECs (I was one myself a few years ago), but barring a dramatic change in circumstances that would be verging on the miraculous, those days are gone. We have literally hundreds of top quality FOs now available for command courses, all of whom have thousands of jet hours - anyone joining now would therefore go to the back of a long and distinguished queue.

I am not sure if you were being serious about the possibility of going from a Q400 command to a DEC on a 737/Airbus. At no point in easyJet's history has there been DECs from turboprops, nor am I aware of any company in the UK who has ever offered that either. To go from the left seat of a turboprop and go straight into the left seat of an Airbus would be a recipe for disaster. That is not in any way to knock turboprop guys - I was one myself previously, and it was a fantastic start to my commercial flying career that I will always be grateful for. Nonetheless the jet world is a whole new deal, and it just takes time and experience to get comfortable with it. After being a turboprop captain, I was an FO for another 2 1/2 years on the Airbus before getting a command. In retrospect I am extremely grateful the chance for promotion did not come before then, as I would not have been able to do the opportunity justice.

I am not sure there is a single jet airline in the world right now where there is a quick command. That will no doubt all change, but if you have a stable job I would be hanging onto it rather than join the rat-race of summer jobs at easyJet. Although you have 5500 hours, from what you say none of it is jet time. You would need substantial jet experience to be considered for a command, but right now the limitation would not be that but the enormous group of people in front of you. If you wanted a figure, I would say that anyone joining today could wait 5 years' + to get a sniff of a command and even that might turn out to be very optimistic. Regarding bases, it is basically a case of initially taking an FO job where you are offered it. As soon as you join you can then put your name on the list for wherever you want to go. It is completely down to supply and demand when your slot comes up. For example, if you want to go to Gatwick you would get there in a few months, but if you want to go to East Midlands or Berlin you could wait several years. Once you get promoted the fun all begins again. You have to take the promotion where it is offered or it goes to the next guy. Once you are on the command list you have to apply to the base of your choice but you are now at the bottom of the transfer list - the fact you have been an FO there for years is no help whatsoever!

Best of luck!

Hey Homer, why not bid command on the E195 when you get the seniority? E195 looks like a nice ride too...

Q400
 

Hi all,

NSF, I regularly read your posts with interest and regard you as you are one of pprune's sensible, balanced contributors, so please don't take this as a personal attack. I merely want to take issue with your comments regarding turboprop commands.

I am personally in the middle of a Q400 conversion (not for Flybe) having moved from a command on the F100 and having earlier flown the 737 for Excel/XL. I can confidently say that anyone who can fly this rough diamond can equally well cope with a jet which is in almost all respects MUCH easier to operate.

Command qualities are common to all types and as the recession bites and as more operators look to save every last penny, the turbo prop looks likely to enjoy a renaissance.

Nevertheless, I accept that the traditional path has tended to be left seat turboprop to right seat jet and I accept that Homer J will find it difficult to circumvent this. Like so much in life, "it ain't right and it ain't fair".

KT

That is a tremendous bulld****. I used to fly Turboprop, now on a big jet in a big passenger airline and I found the jet far easier thant the heavy turboprop I flew before.
As for airlines promoting DEC even from turboprop there is at least Cityjet (known as ****yjet :}) and Wizzair have tooken lots of ATR captain with no jet experience, straight on the left hand seat of a brand new airbus and so far there have been no accident nor incident report.

Finally, Hommer-J, with your flight hours and experience you'd better apply to Cargolux as an FO but you will be treated and paid much better than at easyjet.
easyjet=ryanair

Good luck.

SSS

Nah not true Ryanair will still put you on a Command Course 20 minutes after you've joined as a Cadet.

I must agree with NSF, there is no chance of a direct entry to the left hand seat from a turboprop in easyJet, all ( so far ) have always had to do a little time RHS.

British World.

ATP command to command on 757. ( Not myself by btw )

It's about ability and in some cases who your drink buddies are.

seasexsun
 

As for airlines promoting DEC even from turboprop there is at least Cityjet (known as ****yjet http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif) and Wizzair have tooken lots of ATR captain with no jet experience, straight on the left hand seat of a brand new airbus and so far there have been no accident nor incident report.

Not strictly true. Several of these ATR guys were employed by Wizzair as DECs and it was suggested afer a while that they would benefit from a period in the RHS. At least one actually requested that he did 6 months RHS before movng to LHS (very experienced etc but had the nouse to recognize it could be a tadge demanding to operate unfamiliar equipment in demanding environment). A few went left-to-left but had considerable jet time in the past. In any case, Hungarian law requires a very large number of LHS sectors with trainer.

This is not meant in any way to diminish skills and talents of ATR drivers. I agree, these types can be mored difficult.

Turbo-props and jets are different - period.

I have flown as FO and Captain of turbo props and as FO and soon to be Captain of a Jet.

One does not qualify you for the other.

Jets and swept wings require more attention in crappy weather than a turbo prop does, and for that reason, on stormy nights with strong crosswinds when I hit the stick off the stops on the electric jet that I pine for my old turboprop back!

Another thing about Jet flying is Energy management, and that is a skill that is best learnt from the RHS with a safety net beside you in the LHS, and the ability to hone that skill very much comes down to the individual, and even the most experienced guys still get it wrong from time to time:O

Ok, big deal, you Go around and try again, next thing about being on a jet is the alarming rate that a Go around and subsequent approach uses up your fuel, so careful energy management and fuel management are areas that a prop captain may use on his a/c but IMHO, having flown both, the Prop can get you out a spot easier than a Jet can.

Then there is the differences between Jets. Again I have flown both the bus and the 737 and they are very very different, the bus looks after you in lots of ways but it can still, and one day when your least expecting it, be flown as a conventional a/c and thats when experience on types like the 737 will serve you well, although rusty you will have seen it before.

Taking this argument up to the next level, I don't think two years in the LHS at EZY would qualify me for DEC LHS at the like of Virgin or BA LH. Bigger jets, more engines and of course long haul experience of which I would have none.

In summary I belive in the career ladder and the more rungs you visit on your way up, the more rounded Jet Captain you will make.

But to confirm what others have said any future recruitment of DEC's at EZY is a very very very long way off.

Best of luck, but I think if you have a LHS Q400 job at a base where you want to be and it seems secure, for now, if it were me I'd be staying put. Sometimes it can be hard to see how green the grass is on your present side of the fence!

I have not meant to start a storm here and maybe this will be my last post on this thread. ezydriver - I completely agree with your post. seasexsun - I would respectfully disagree with your perspective on this issue. The practices of Eastern European airlines are not necessarily those we should be seeking to emulate. We are wishing to use the very best possible practices and not the ones we can get away with most of the time. No one is saying every transition to a jet from a turboprop is impossible - what I am saying is that statistically you are significantly more open to a serious flight safety incident if you go from being a captain on a turboprop to a captain on a 737/Airbus. There will always be exceptions to that - but we are dealing with minimising overall risk and not increasing it. A turboprop to jet command in one hit is a massive increase in risk. That does not demean the abilities of pilots coming from the turboprop world (I am one!), but you are vulnerable to significant misjudgements due to the totally different characteristics of these aircraft.

I now train people from every background imaginable and I can tell you that by far and away the best command candidates we have at easyJet are FO's promoted from within with substantial time on type. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to see that - it is just plain common sense that someone who has gained experience in the right seat under the guidance of more experienced pilots will be much better prepared for the challenges of command than someone who is brand new to jets and to the company.

Another poster has alluded to problems at Wizzair - if you put turboprop captains straight into the command of an A320 you are asking for trouble. That does not mean these guys are bad pilots - it does mean they are inexperienced and as such are more likely to make errors. I have now flown thousands of hours on Airbuses and feel comfortable in that role - that does not make me good but it does make me experienced and all the benefits that brings . If I were to now go long haul and be given a command on a 747, I could learn to fly it I am sure. That is not the issue thought. What I would not be is experienced, and therefore I would not be best placed to fulfil the duties of my role. I would want considerable time as an apprentice in the RHS learning from someone who has been there, seen it, done it. That is how you produce the best quality captains. I am not getting into argument here about which is more difficult to fly - you can argue all day about turboprop or jets being more or less demanding. What I am saying is that these are very different animals indeed, and experience is absolutely critical to producing a safe operation. That experience is best obtained in the RHS.

A bit off topic but you shouldn't be "hitting the stick off the stops" in rough weather on the Airbus. If you find yourself doing this you should just take your hand off it for a few seconds and let it do what it does best. You should know this if you're about to get your command on it...

Cutting to the chase, there's a hell of a lot of brilliant SFO's gagging for a command in easyJet so if you're lucky enough to be called for interview you'll have to be grateful for a seat on the Right.

This is unlikely to change. The world has.


WWW

Picking up a dropped wing on the bus has, and will have many pilots hitting the roll stops, all be it momentarily. I believe what you are refferring to is PIO, in which case you should take your hand off, let it settle and start again. What you should NEVER do of course is dance on the rudder.

NSF,
What about all the guys in the US that went from the left seat of a
turboprop to the left seat of a regional jet.
And what's with East Midlands and Berlin tha a lot of guys want to
go there?

Passing a linecheck as an FO is one thing, passing as a PIC is another... How can you make right decisions when you are not even familiar with the airplane and its perf limitations.

Has/Is Aer Lingus not taken/taking DECs for BFS/LGW without Jet time?

According to ICAO and JAA with an atpl licence and 1500 hours including Jar/far 25 (jet or Turboprop) you can be a commander of an A380, a350, a340, a330, a320, a310, a300, b747,b767, md11, etc, etc, etc....
If it was unsafe, they would change the rule!!

Can you explain a bit more, because I don't see the relationship :confused:

SSS - Check your PMs

Seasexsun,


Possible but NOT probable.
They don't need to change the requirements as no one gets a command on longhaul airliner with 1500 hrs total time anyway. Minimum requirements in jet airliner companies are much higher than that.

Why? You gotta learn how to crawl before you can walk.

Show me the airlines that give you a command with 1500 hrs on a Airbus 380 or similar!?

In good times with rapid expanding airlines I'm sure the airlines would use this opportunity to promote people to capt. when reaching minimum requirement.

Why don't EZY, RYR or Emirates or other similar airlines do early promotions with 1500 hrs in order to meet their demand for new capts? I mean if the JAA requirement is 1500 hrs it got to be safe as you claim it? :=

don't ask me that, ask ICAO and JAA directors, they must be more able than you and me to answer to this question .

SSS, are you just trying to make a point? There is not one FO in any easyJet-type airline with 1500 hours who considers him/herself ready to run the show. They more than happy with the payrise and the third stripe that come with the ATPL.

Shows how much you have learnt Clara. Do you think that F/Os in a mature professional company are hidden away from the operation. All our F/Os are Captains in training from the first day they walk onto the flightdeck. I could give you a long list of F/Os at Easy who will make fine commanders when their time comes.

6 months in the RHS for a TP Captain would be about right before attempting a command course depending on ability.

oh MY GOOOOOOOD! the THIRD stripe!!! This is so important :ok::}:}
That's only in england you see those stupid things. in other countries we start with 3 we finish with 4 but, we don't care anyway, the most important is salary and conditions, and in Ryanair and Easyjet there is a lot to improve...

Uuhhh..it is you who is going on and on about commands at 1500 hours. So get your command on an A380 if you can. We won't stop ya!

JAA and ICAO give the MINIMUS that operators can apply. As with your drivers licence you may be legaly entlitled to drive a Bugatti Veyron at 17 but good luck finding a company to insure you. No airline insurance will allow a 1500 hour captain on a large passenger jet and for a good reason.

When you have 40 hours and pass your PPL you think you start to know what flying is about but when you have 100 hours you realize that you knew nothing however now you begin to know what flying is about. This process is repeated at 500, 1000, 2000, etc, etc etc If you have not realized this yet then you are even further behind than you think.

Do you care to expand what Easyjet can improve on, compared to other airlines in the current environment?

No company is perfect - however, they are not laying pilots off or making pay cuts?

...and the third stripe is important - its worth £10k a year

TJ

seasexsun,

3 stripes belong to England only :confused: Not quite, if you look at most national/legacy carriers in the world you will see they start off with 1 or 2 stripes. Even in your beloved Cargolux you start off with 2 stripes ! The great company that gives you an amazing 1% pension and can take your days off away from you as it suits them and with no notice. So much for good T&C :mad: I happen to know several people from there who left for other airlines including lowcost companies!

Maybe it's time for you to look beyond your Canary islands commuter airliner world as you seem to know very little about bigger jet airlines, especially about RYR and EZY :ugh:

In every spanish, french, italian, portugese airlines you start with 3 stripes. I have never had 2 stripes, only 3, but to be honnest I really don't care.
as for the rest, I will inform you about something you seem to ignore, in PM.

I would like to apologise for unwittingly hijacking this thread - I genuinely did not intend to do so. Nonetheless, an interesting discussion has ensued that is actually quite valuable. With the notable exception of seasexsun, a 'sense of the meeting' has developed as the Quakers would say!

There are clearly variations in the different learning rates and natural talent levels of different pilots. From what I read seasexsun is blessed with an unusual level of ability and skill that I, alas, never possessed. Consequently flying a swept-wing jet is easy and requires little or no past experience to do it safely and well. Indeed, having read his comments I am surprised our managers are not scouring the Job Centres of Europe as we speak, in search of likely lads to fly them at greatly reduced rates. Nonetheless, for the rest of us more limited pilots who do feel the need for experience to improve our skill base, doing the job for a considerable period of time has brought clear benefits.

It seems to me that, despite many aspects of our lives in Western Europe being wrong, there are some things we are doing well at. One of those is aviation and it is good occasionally to reflect on why our accident rate is heading in the right direction. Should we sit back and congratulate ourselves? Absolutely not! Nonetheless we should recognise that the way we do aviation is usually very professional, and a number of the practices we adopt are worth reflecting on by other sections of the wider aviation community. One of those practices is ensuring that our pilots are well-trained and have the necessary skills AND experience to carry out the duties they are asked to perform. I personally like the idea of the Captain at the front of the aircraft I am flying in having substantial experience in the role he is undertakeing - one or two people here do not seem quite as fussy. It appears to have paid significant dividends to numerous highly-respected companies. The fact that other countries outside our sphere of influence do not emulate these practices is their loss - and we should not be embarrassed to say that.

Most sensible people on this forum seem to be agreeing that it is of overall benefit to aviation to ensure that Captains on jets have flown them previously as First Officers -and it is difficult to see any other credible view. Once again, my sincere apologies to the original contributor here who was asking an altogether different question.

Bull****, sorry, but in Italy in every company you start with 1 or 2 stripes, some dont even give you 3 stripes, you go from 2 to 4.
In france you get 2 stripes and the same for spain and other countries.
The only country I know so far were you have only 3 and 4 stripes is germany.
Only FA and Pursers get 1 or 2 stripes there. :)

NSF,

On two points I agree. Firstly, we have hijacked the thread. Secondly it is of great benefit to have flown an aircraft from the right seat before moving to the left. However, I believe this has much more to do with assimilating the company culture and seeing the routes and procedures rather than acquiring any form of black art.

I want to again take issue your with your initial answer to Homer J and the suggestion that turbo prop captains moving from to jets would be a "recipe for disaster". I think you would have to admit that this is a somewhat condescending and factually incorrect statement.

My fllying career started in the mid nineties with Air UK. At that time the company was in the process of changing it's career structure from:

FO-Turboprop, FO-jet, Cpt-TP, Cpt-Jet

to

FO-TP, FO-Jet, Cpt-Jet

Consequently, there was a need for captains on the TP which was covered partly by promotions from the fleet and partly by DECs. The last of these made the "disastrous" move from Cpt-TP to Cpt-Jet within KLM in the last few years.

Now, I am working for a Lufthansa partner which traditionally flew turboprops and is now re-equiping with jets. And, guess what, they have taken the "disastrous" step of training the turboprop captains, all of whom, like Homer J have several thousand hours of Q400, to fly the jet equipment. Does anyone seriously expect that the former fleet manager be demoted and fly six months in the right seat!!! And if so, who is he supposed to fly with?

Those are two examples. There are plenty of others. I think it would be good to reflect that there was a flying industry before Easy/Ryan and there continues to be one outside the UK. If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative. But it is a somewhat insular view to say the least.

After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.

KT

I take it you don't work in the aviation industry.

KT

No, thats BA :cool:

No, its the standard route for a small percentage of people who have the means and to a degree, luck, to be able to go down this route. Personally, I've clawed my way up to the right hand seat of a big jet at great expense to my wallet and personal life. :D

Knee Trembler - The problem of a discussion that has developped here is that every Alpha Male on the planet feels insulted and has to justify his own place and experience. It is therefore almost impossible to have a rational discussion on this issue whithout it turning into a rather pathetic slanging match. I will, however, try to answer as best I can.

I do not agree with you that my remarks are condescending - if you have taken offence then that is your issue rather than mine. Just to define my terms - by 'jet' I mean specifically a medium jet and above - ie 737/A320-series type aircraft or larger. I do not include small jets like Embraers etc as the same problems arise. Also, I would ask you not to put words in my mouth. At no point did I say or imply that easyJet and Ryanair were the only companies who know how to fly - I do not mind you disagreeing with what I said, but I do not appreciate being berated for some offence that only took place in your own mind. I totally agree, however, that company culture plus knowledge of routes and procedures are key factors. Those factors are, however, inextricably linked with coming onto jet operations and form part of my argument - you tend to go further afield, thus bringing a whole host of new problems that require experience to handle correctly. My point is just that - jet handling is different, as is just about every aspect of the operation that turboprop pilots have left behind. The last thing a pilot needs when every single part of his professional life has changed is the burden of command, which he is ill-equipped to handle at that stage. I stand by my view, therefore that to go from being a captain on a turboprop to a medium jet is a recipe for disaster. I could give countless specific examples to back my view, but that would not be appropriate here. If experience in role was not required you could go down the Job Centre and train up people for a fraction of the price. That does not mean that every ex-turboprop captain would make a terrible captain on a jet. It means they need the appropriate experience on jets, prior to becoming captains in order that they have that vital mix of knowledge, skill and experience. It also means recognising that an enormous amount has still be to learnt that can never be fully picked up on line training. As has rightly been pointed-out, some turboprop captains would do well - for what it is worth I would not have been one of them, even though I was foolish enough at the time to think I would. What undoubtedly is true, however, is that you are significantly increasing the risk of something going wrong. As we all know, there is an element of luck here - it does rather depend on the particular situation you come up against. If experience did not matter then ours would be a simple job that any fool could do. Experience is absolutely critical in any flying job and that is best obtained in the RHS under the ultimate command of someone who has trodden the exact same path before you.

I remember when I was a turboprop Training Captain awaiting my first jet job. I bumped into an ex-Britannia 767 captain who was over 60 and seeing out his time on turboprops - a common practice then. He said something I will never forget. He said that I should not be in a rush to get a jet command as although some people have done so in short order, they were 'vulnerable' to making a big error. That has been my personal experience and my observation of other people has endorsed that view. Being the Captain of a jet aircraft is a demanding job that carries enormous responsibility - it requires a combination of knowledge, skill and experience. If any one of those 3 elements is missing then problems will ensue. Sure, it depends on what the individual captain faces on the day, but by diluting experience you are opening the door to trouble. 'Vulnerability' is the key - one of the key ways of reducing vulnerability is to have experience.

As a little aside, if you join NetJets with 10,000 hours including command on Boeings and Airbuses - where will you go? Guess what - the RHS. Why is that? It is because the whole nature of the operation is so different to anything that has gone before, it is deemed safer by people who have been at that line of work a long time to get experience in the RHS. Is that grounds for the ex-747 captain to take offence - absolutely not! It is grounds for the ex-747 captain to rejoice that his new company have seen fit to ensure that he is adequately prepared to take-on the responsibities his new role will demand when he eventually becomes a Captain again.