BA f/os Wanting GSS commands
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No I don't believe it was merged seniority HS. Nobody will ever get that after CFE were 'integrated' into the master seniority list in the same manner as Dan Air (i.e. Tacked on the bottom, albeit with a much better financial deal than the Dan's got at the time - thanks BALPA).
When I say nobody, of course I mean no Regional Carriers. I can't see KLM/AA/Iberia/Quantas being 'tacked on the bottom' when the global consolidations begin somehow!
To the best of my belief the BACX CC held out for all the turboprop pilots to be allowed access to the master seniority list too and for some inexplicable reason this was not a runner for BA or the BACC (I don't know which). Maybe the company knew at that time about the impending exit of the J41s into Eastern? Anyway the deal offered was that only their existing 146 pilots could join the master seniority list. There were no BACX pilots flying the RJ100s which remained flown excusively by ex CFEs (and 8 DEP's who were scrubbed off of LH courses in the month after 911) until AFTER the scope negotiations were completed between BA and the BACC (about the time of the pay restructuring general members meetings).
It was very honourable of the BACX jet pilots to hold out for their colleagues and a shame for them that it didn't come to fruition.
Disclaimer... If I'm wrong and they did turn it down for the lack of a B-Cal style seniority list integration then they were just peeing in the wind anyway and, quite honestly, pretty stupid. Being 'tacked on the bottom' was a fantastic windfall for me!
When I say nobody, of course I mean no Regional Carriers. I can't see KLM/AA/Iberia/Quantas being 'tacked on the bottom' when the global consolidations begin somehow!
To the best of my belief the BACX CC held out for all the turboprop pilots to be allowed access to the master seniority list too and for some inexplicable reason this was not a runner for BA or the BACC (I don't know which). Maybe the company knew at that time about the impending exit of the J41s into Eastern? Anyway the deal offered was that only their existing 146 pilots could join the master seniority list. There were no BACX pilots flying the RJ100s which remained flown excusively by ex CFEs (and 8 DEP's who were scrubbed off of LH courses in the month after 911) until AFTER the scope negotiations were completed between BA and the BACC (about the time of the pay restructuring general members meetings).
It was very honourable of the BACX jet pilots to hold out for their colleagues and a shame for them that it didn't come to fruition.
Disclaimer... If I'm wrong and they did turn it down for the lack of a B-Cal style seniority list integration then they were just peeing in the wind anyway and, quite honestly, pretty stupid. Being 'tacked on the bottom' was a fantastic windfall for me!
Last edited by beaver eager; 20th Aug 2003 at 05:46.
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So presumably its the BA pilots on the RJ100 which are responsible for the awful servicability of the aircraft. You know, the stuff that leads to five figure sums being shelled on on wet-leases from Titan to keep the show on the road? Presumably its also the BA pilots who stop the BACX rostering any sort of sensible crewing program on the other fleets too?
BACX isn't part of BA when it suits the BACC. To be honest, I don't really think of BACX as part of BA at all, its just a wholly owned subsidiary, a bit like BMed or GB, its just that BA own it. If BA tried to transfer an entire fleet of aircraft to any subsidiary/franchise, then I consider it only fair that BA pilots should have the opportunity to go with the aircraft like they did with the RJ. I suspect you'd have a few bidders onto the J41 or ATP if it was offered, but as they weren't our aircraft to start with, and we don't operate any equivalent types, there's no real claim for people to go there. If GSS only operated SH330s then the same would apply, but they don't. They're flying 744Fs when we have a large and established 744 fleet, and if they want to expand based exclusively on BA contracts then they'll have to do it in accordance with the BA Scope agreement. The customer is king.
BACX isn't part of BA when it suits the BACC. To be honest, I don't really think of BACX as part of BA at all, its just a wholly owned subsidiary, a bit like BMed or GB, its just that BA own it. If BA tried to transfer an entire fleet of aircraft to any subsidiary/franchise, then I consider it only fair that BA pilots should have the opportunity to go with the aircraft like they did with the RJ. I suspect you'd have a few bidders onto the J41 or ATP if it was offered, but as they weren't our aircraft to start with, and we don't operate any equivalent types, there's no real claim for people to go there. If GSS only operated SH330s then the same would apply, but they don't. They're flying 744Fs when we have a large and established 744 fleet, and if they want to expand based exclusively on BA contracts then they'll have to do it in accordance with the BA Scope agreement. The customer is king.
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FO JANEWAY,
what's your point love - we actually WANT you on our seniority list. why don't you actually read what hand has written and then respond like a grown-up.
BACX pilots had the chance to do just that but they blew it - so stop bleating.
You would be very surprised at the number of people in BA who were NOT sponsored and did not "have their training shoved up them by BA". Admittedly a lot did - and good luck to them. You sound just a tiny bit jealous.
Jane babe, are you and LF an item? you should be.. chill out
what's your point love - we actually WANT you on our seniority list. why don't you actually read what hand has written and then respond like a grown-up.
BACX pilots had the chance to do just that but they blew it - so stop bleating.
You would be very surprised at the number of people in BA who were NOT sponsored and did not "have their training shoved up them by BA". Admittedly a lot did - and good luck to them. You sound just a tiny bit jealous.
Jane babe, are you and LF an item? you should be.. chill out
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Well if that's the case I think BACX Balpa need their heads read! They will no way get merged seniority based on D.O.J. Why not just settle to go in at the bottom and increase the terms and conditions for everyone. I think the problem is that too many of the BACX Balpa reps. have thier own agenda and aren't really listening to the pilot workforce.i.e workforce want to get on to seniortiy list whereas Balpa reps. are (mainly)at the latter end of their careers and aren't as intereseted in getting on the BA seniortiy list as junior pilots would be.
Uncle Pete
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Flash
I remember one ex-WINGCO in bmi many moons ago. He was an amusing interesting person to talk to and have a drink with BUT....
he should have stuck to something he can do well....manage people, not aeroplanes.
Perhaps you should think of a career move whilst you still have a career.
MP
PS Are the Flight Lieutenants the ones with two stripes?
I remember one ex-WINGCO in bmi many moons ago. He was an amusing interesting person to talk to and have a drink with BUT....
he should have stuck to something he can do well....manage people, not aeroplanes.
Perhaps you should think of a career move whilst you still have a career.
MP
PS Are the Flight Lieutenants the ones with two stripes?
Last edited by MaximumPete; 20th Aug 2003 at 18:11.
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FO Janeway
WRT to seniority lists...
Merger of two "equal" airlines e.g. BA and Lufthansa ... merging of seniority.
Takeover of minnow airline e.g. BA and Cityflyer ... slotted in at the bottom of the list with Grandfather rights.
The guys at Cityflyer got IMO a good deal, the junior guys are one minute flying an ATR or RJ with no decent nightstops and average Ts anc Cs - the next they're on the 744 flying to Hong Kong on good Ts anc Cs. The Capts meanwhile keep their commands and have better Ts and Cs.
Anybody that thinks that BACX should have merged seniority with BA based on DOJ is crazy - a lot of them were probably rejected from BA in the first place! They should have grasped the opportunity, bet they wish they had now.
Also you say...
<Bearing in mind you had all your training shuved up your backside by BA you should be grateful and keep your mouth shut.
Ever actually WORKED for a living, and flying for that matter? (never mind that really hard summer holiday job at McDonald's!)
A lot of the cadets did have previous lives, as the age limit for application was as high as 30 in the recent past - I for one worked in the City and I know of other cadets that are ex-nurses etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "training shuved up your backside" as this was never part of the syllabus on my course. Perhaps you would like to tell us all exactly what you endured in order to fund and pass your exams.
WRT to seniority lists...
Merger of two "equal" airlines e.g. BA and Lufthansa ... merging of seniority.
Takeover of minnow airline e.g. BA and Cityflyer ... slotted in at the bottom of the list with Grandfather rights.
The guys at Cityflyer got IMO a good deal, the junior guys are one minute flying an ATR or RJ with no decent nightstops and average Ts anc Cs - the next they're on the 744 flying to Hong Kong on good Ts anc Cs. The Capts meanwhile keep their commands and have better Ts and Cs.
Anybody that thinks that BACX should have merged seniority with BA based on DOJ is crazy - a lot of them were probably rejected from BA in the first place! They should have grasped the opportunity, bet they wish they had now.
Also you say...
<Bearing in mind you had all your training shuved up your backside by BA you should be grateful and keep your mouth shut.
Ever actually WORKED for a living, and flying for that matter? (never mind that really hard summer holiday job at McDonald's!)
A lot of the cadets did have previous lives, as the age limit for application was as high as 30 in the recent past - I for one worked in the City and I know of other cadets that are ex-nurses etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "training shuved up your backside" as this was never part of the syllabus on my course. Perhaps you would like to tell us all exactly what you endured in order to fund and pass your exams.
I think Lord Flasheart was actually a Captain in the RFC. Of course, if he was still around (having lasted more than his allocated 20 minutes) on the first of April 1918, he would of become a Flight Lieutenant.
Junior trash
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bral - Most of the silver stripers flying the rj have been doi9ng it for years, and we never had this sort of problem, its 100% down to poor engineering by BACX. Had a little incidentette this morning with something thats been happening for days and "tested on ground NFF" and signed off until it goes bang.
One of the aeroplanes is banned from leaving the country so confident are they that its going to go tech. Like i say quality operation.
One of the aeroplanes is banned from leaving the country so confident are they that its going to go tech. Like i say quality operation.
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bral
That response to a prior post is libellous. As a BA pilot on the RJ I take huge objection to your comments.
I have emailed PPrune advising them of my intention to consult my lawyer. I will ask that your details be released by Pprune admin so that I can commence proceedings.
w00t
Well, not wishing to give anything away but PERHAPS that is the case. Some aircraft require more than button pushing to have them operated correctly
I have emailed PPrune advising them of my intention to consult my lawyer. I will ask that your details be released by Pprune admin so that I can commence proceedings.
w00t
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w00t, I don't think you have enough there to be honest.
I will say BRAL that I had the pleasure of training some of the BA regional guys off the Airbus and 737 (BHX and MAN) onto the RJ100 and they were ALL top quality pilots - and dare I say it, Operators. Your comments are out of line !!!
However I'm also bl00dy glad to be well and truly out of the current fiasco re BA, BACX etc etc.
Hey BE, how's it going ?
I will say BRAL that I had the pleasure of training some of the BA regional guys off the Airbus and 737 (BHX and MAN) onto the RJ100 and they were ALL top quality pilots - and dare I say it, Operators. Your comments are out of line !!!
However I'm also bl00dy glad to be well and truly out of the current fiasco re BA, BACX etc etc.
Hey BE, how's it going ?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Don't suppose old Flash'll be reading this. Obviously still waiting for us to climb to his level
!! Still, we all know the deal we sign up for:
If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined
Now do the -400 fleet a favour and bigger off to GSS.
!! Still, we all know the deal we sign up for:If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined
Now do the -400 fleet a favour and bigger off to GSS.
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Flashart
Not giving you something that no other DEP is given (and therefore it would be at the expense of others) is not anti-forces. Almost all of your ex-services colleagues make fine pilots, and when they have the required experience and their turn comes up they move to command like almost everyone else.
Because you cannot accept this does not mean you are being discriminated against, it just means that the system is being applied fairly and this was clear when you accepted the contract (why did you do this?). How can you expect to be given seniority on the basis of your previous employment when this doesn't happen for DEPs with their (often very relevant) previous experience with other airlines?
A system of carrying forward seniority from previous employment would be massively complex and impossible to apply fairly - so it doesn't happen. Accept it or resign, your current attitude is incompatible with flight safety.
Because you cannot accept this does not mean you are being discriminated against, it just means that the system is being applied fairly and this was clear when you accepted the contract (why did you do this?). How can you expect to be given seniority on the basis of your previous employment when this doesn't happen for DEPs with their (often very relevant) previous experience with other airlines?
A system of carrying forward seniority from previous employment would be massively complex and impossible to apply fairly - so it doesn't happen. Accept it or resign, your current attitude is incompatible with flight safety.
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Dear All
I think Flash has a bloody good point re seniority carrying over. In fact I'm going to sign up to the RAF today!
Since I've been flying for 7 years now I shall expect to go in as a least a Squadron Leader. Also seeing as my Sim grades and route checks have been top notch I shall expect nothing less than Tornados with Eurofighter as my preffered option.
Now has anybody got any white gloves I can borrow?
Cheers
BB
PS Whether Flash is fishing or not doesn't matter since a very small minority of ex services are just like him, and they do come out with the same drivel.
I think Flash has a bloody good point re seniority carrying over. In fact I'm going to sign up to the RAF today!
Since I've been flying for 7 years now I shall expect to go in as a least a Squadron Leader. Also seeing as my Sim grades and route checks have been top notch I shall expect nothing less than Tornados with Eurofighter as my preffered option.
Now has anybody got any white gloves I can borrow?
Cheers
BB
PS Whether Flash is fishing or not doesn't matter since a very small minority of ex services are just like him, and they do come out with the same drivel.
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Mr Flash is winding you all up.
The fact is that flying aircraft is not that difficult.
I think seniority lists are Bull dropping , but if you decide to join
an airline which operates a promotion system based on them then such is life.
There sould be a contest to see who can produce the biggest
wind up comment.
Keep them coming Mr Flash
The fact is that flying aircraft is not that difficult.
I think seniority lists are Bull dropping , but if you decide to join
an airline which operates a promotion system based on them then such is life.
There sould be a contest to see who can produce the biggest
wind up comment.
Keep them coming Mr Flash
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A little bit of history about Lord Flashfart....
He IS a BA pilot. He is a currently a captain on Airbus having moved up from EOG. He originally joined BA after the Dan Air takeover. He is a master angler.
He tried this particular 'lure' about ex-forces pilots getting enhanced seniority about 4 years ago and was similarly successful in getting some extreme reactions, describing cadet entry pilots as 'spotty oiks'.
He is an ar*ehole in real life too but not as extreme as his postings.
He IS a BA pilot. He is a currently a captain on Airbus having moved up from EOG. He originally joined BA after the Dan Air takeover. He is a master angler.
He tried this particular 'lure' about ex-forces pilots getting enhanced seniority about 4 years ago and was similarly successful in getting some extreme reactions, describing cadet entry pilots as 'spotty oiks'.
He is an ar*ehole in real life too but not as extreme as his postings.
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Merging Seniority Lists
OK guys, time to bring in a few facts.
I have worked for both BACX and BA in the recent past and have seen a bit of both sides of the argument. I do not claim to have a full understanding, but it is clear to me that there is a big misunderstanding between the two groups of pilots. Reading things like 'most BACX pilots are probably BA rejects' and stupid childish jibes about 'button pressing' and the like do not help anyone. The FACTS of the matter are, that we are two groups of ordinary blokes and lasses who want to get on with our careers.
Most of the people I have flown with/socialised with in BACX have never applied to BA, and what is more, there are people in BA, who are BA 'rejects' ie they got in on their third attempt. What difference is there between someone who fails to get into BA on the first attempt and accepts a job with a different airline, and someone who fails to get into BA and then subsequently gets offered a job by BA?
Now I keep hearing BA people say that BACX 'turned down' the offer of merging seniority lists and it is 'there loss'. Well that is not quite true. If you were to read the BACXCC newsletters, it appears that the BACC wanted to 'reward' some pilots and 'shaft' others. Whether this is true or not is almost immaterial, the people we pay to support us (BALPA, via BACXCC) said don't do it!! Whats more, it ashamed me that my union had two factions who were fighting instead of getting on with making things better for us all.
So here is a solution:
1. Put BACX crews onto the bottom of the seniority list.
2. Create a 'regional' payscale - make it the same as the BACX scales.
3. Allow bidding within the current fleets (ie BACX within current BACX fleets, BA within curret BA fleets) for 4 years.
4. After 4 years, open up the bidding to everyone.
5. Get rid of BACC and BACXCC fighting each other by having just one BACC with some ex BACX people on it (ie make it bigger)
6. Have date of merging lists as seniority
7. Have date of joining either company as statutory joining date for redundancy purposes
8. Merge training/rostering departments to save money
How this solves problems:
1. Stops two differing groups fighting each other and makes cost savings by reducing duplication
2. Makes it cost effective for BA - otherwise they wouldn't do it, also it means the BACX guys loose nothing, but do gain.
3. Means that BACX guys who are nearly ready for command/type change do not loose out, without taking anything away from BA guys. After 4 years things will have settled out.
4. Things are now settled, no one is pipped to the post.
5. Speaks for itself.
6. Is fair to both sets of pilots, especially considering 4 year gap. Neither workforce looses out.
7. Legal reasons - still no one looses out.
8. Speaks for itself.
It should be remembered that quite a few BACX guys work there because that is the sort of flying they want to do. Home every evening to see the kids or not many nightstops. Also it should be noted that many are aspiring people who want to get on with their careers. My suggestions above cater for both, you can bid to go 'up' or bid to stay where you are. No one looses out and everyone gains.
Am expecting some explosive posts to follow, but if we point out the problems, get them sorted and then move forward with putting this infront of BA, BACC and BACXCC then we can all win. We just need to get rid of the childish 'we are better than you' because it is rubbish and WRONG, we do slightly different jobs, that is all.
And for those who say TP pilots often fail jet courses or are not good enough etc, then the 4 year gap above should weed them out - if they are not good enough, then surely the training department will discover by then???
Comments please, don't shoot me down just yet.
I have worked for both BACX and BA in the recent past and have seen a bit of both sides of the argument. I do not claim to have a full understanding, but it is clear to me that there is a big misunderstanding between the two groups of pilots. Reading things like 'most BACX pilots are probably BA rejects' and stupid childish jibes about 'button pressing' and the like do not help anyone. The FACTS of the matter are, that we are two groups of ordinary blokes and lasses who want to get on with our careers.
Most of the people I have flown with/socialised with in BACX have never applied to BA, and what is more, there are people in BA, who are BA 'rejects' ie they got in on their third attempt. What difference is there between someone who fails to get into BA on the first attempt and accepts a job with a different airline, and someone who fails to get into BA and then subsequently gets offered a job by BA?
Now I keep hearing BA people say that BACX 'turned down' the offer of merging seniority lists and it is 'there loss'. Well that is not quite true. If you were to read the BACXCC newsletters, it appears that the BACC wanted to 'reward' some pilots and 'shaft' others. Whether this is true or not is almost immaterial, the people we pay to support us (BALPA, via BACXCC) said don't do it!! Whats more, it ashamed me that my union had two factions who were fighting instead of getting on with making things better for us all.
So here is a solution:
1. Put BACX crews onto the bottom of the seniority list.
2. Create a 'regional' payscale - make it the same as the BACX scales.
3. Allow bidding within the current fleets (ie BACX within current BACX fleets, BA within curret BA fleets) for 4 years.
4. After 4 years, open up the bidding to everyone.
5. Get rid of BACC and BACXCC fighting each other by having just one BACC with some ex BACX people on it (ie make it bigger)
6. Have date of merging lists as seniority
7. Have date of joining either company as statutory joining date for redundancy purposes
8. Merge training/rostering departments to save money
How this solves problems:
1. Stops two differing groups fighting each other and makes cost savings by reducing duplication
2. Makes it cost effective for BA - otherwise they wouldn't do it, also it means the BACX guys loose nothing, but do gain.
3. Means that BACX guys who are nearly ready for command/type change do not loose out, without taking anything away from BA guys. After 4 years things will have settled out.
4. Things are now settled, no one is pipped to the post.
5. Speaks for itself.
6. Is fair to both sets of pilots, especially considering 4 year gap. Neither workforce looses out.
7. Legal reasons - still no one looses out.
8. Speaks for itself.
It should be remembered that quite a few BACX guys work there because that is the sort of flying they want to do. Home every evening to see the kids or not many nightstops. Also it should be noted that many are aspiring people who want to get on with their careers. My suggestions above cater for both, you can bid to go 'up' or bid to stay where you are. No one looses out and everyone gains.
Am expecting some explosive posts to follow, but if we point out the problems, get them sorted and then move forward with putting this infront of BA, BACC and BACXCC then we can all win. We just need to get rid of the childish 'we are better than you' because it is rubbish and WRONG, we do slightly different jobs, that is all.
And for those who say TP pilots often fail jet courses or are not good enough etc, then the 4 year gap above should weed them out - if they are not good enough, then surely the training department will discover by then???
Comments please, don't shoot me down just yet.
Uncle Pete
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A little bit of deja vu here.
Cambrian Airways pilots had all sorts of problems getting onto the BA seniority list. I think there was a legal fighting fund set up the Cambrian pilots.
I'd left before it all started so I may be wrong.
If it is true I would have hoped lessons had been learnt on both sides of the negotiating table
MP
Cambrian Airways pilots had all sorts of problems getting onto the BA seniority list. I think there was a legal fighting fund set up the Cambrian pilots.
I'd left before it all started so I may be wrong.
If it is true I would have hoped lessons had been learnt on both sides of the negotiating table
MP