BA f/os Wanting GSS commands
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God forbid -- Nigels flying freight -- What will they do -- No hosties to upset and how will they cope with no CHEESEBOARD -- Quick run to BALPA !
Wont be long before the Nigel managers get bored again and start chasing the franchises again -- which seem to be making stacks of cash ! Must put a stop to that !
Wont be long before the Nigel managers get bored again and start chasing the franchises again -- which seem to be making stacks of cash ! Must put a stop to that !
Moggie
Just to clarify it was some of the CityFlyer guys that got commands in mainline when it was absorbed.
Although CitiExpress is owned by BA, it is run as a totally seperate company and CitiExpress pilots have no access to mainline at the current time.
As cumulo-granite pointed out the very similar names all to often cause confusion!
Infact what is happening is that some mainline pilots are being parachuted into CitiExpress commands on the RJ100 and pushing some CitiExpress Captains already on the RJ into the RHS, which is totally unfair. But that's another kettle of fish which has been discussed on this forum before!
Just to clarify it was some of the CityFlyer guys that got commands in mainline when it was absorbed.
Although CitiExpress is owned by BA, it is run as a totally seperate company and CitiExpress pilots have no access to mainline at the current time.
As cumulo-granite pointed out the very similar names all to often cause confusion!
Infact what is happening is that some mainline pilots are being parachuted into CitiExpress commands on the RJ100 and pushing some CitiExpress Captains already on the RJ into the RHS, which is totally unfair. But that's another kettle of fish which has been discussed on this forum before!
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Some misconceptions about BAs franchises here. Difficult to think of any that have taken jobs away from BAs pilots as the franchisees invested in operations where BA did not or could not operate,- and mostly never could at BAs cost levels. The overseas franchises, eg Comair in S Africa , RegionAir in Kenya and Sunair in Denmark fly routes which BA would never be able to secure the traffic rights for anyway. The franchises have through their own investment and financial risk brought BA feed traffic and strengthened the power and reach of its Executive Club, frequent flyer programme at no cost to BA itself. Thereby they have supported BA mainline profitability,- and jobs,- not undermined them.
BALPA and franchises. Hmmmm!
BALPA are very keen to sign up new airlines to increase their revenue, but what happens when there is a conflict of interests between airlines where they represent both? They come out for BA. One airline joined the franchise but flew no extra routes as a result. They just continued to operate the ones they had developed over the years. Recently BALPA supported an attempt by BA to move into those routes. Ironicly, the pilots in this franchise had voted to be represented by BALPA the year before.
BALPA should stand for the 'British Airways Line Pilots Association'. It it BA's union and has not proved to be anything but. The short time I wasted 1% of my salary with them, they were argueing to make me redundant.
ers!
BALPA are very keen to sign up new airlines to increase their revenue, but what happens when there is a conflict of interests between airlines where they represent both? They come out for BA. One airline joined the franchise but flew no extra routes as a result. They just continued to operate the ones they had developed over the years. Recently BALPA supported an attempt by BA to move into those routes. Ironicly, the pilots in this franchise had voted to be represented by BALPA the year before.
BALPA should stand for the 'British Airways Line Pilots Association'. It it BA's union and has not proved to be anything but. The short time I wasted 1% of my salary with them, they were argueing to make me redundant.
ers!
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Skylion
I think you may find you are wrong here. BAWC (BA World Cargo) went outside the company to find a company to operate regular cargo work BYPASSING BALPA, such that BALPA were not aware of the situation until late on in the day. At that point, partly due to a poor /non-existant SCOPE agreement it was to late to cancel the plans. BAWC then in short time ended up with not just part-loads, but 1 and then 2 aircraft.
We (BALPA) have since been trying to argue our case to the point we are now. The freighters fly purely BA Cargo around the world - that is why it is (1) BA work (2) BA work (3) BA work.
BALPA has been successful in negotiating terms at LGW, BHX and MAN in the past to keep work flown by BA pilots on the BA pilot seniority list, and could well have been in this case some years ago but were not given the opportunity.
That wrong has been rectified - to those at GSS - sorry but that is the truth - it is our work, be grateful and help us to bring the work in-house (with yourselves) at industry rates. The GSS rates of 56K UKP (year 1) + 2 UKP/hr at not industry rates!
I think you may find you are wrong here. BAWC (BA World Cargo) went outside the company to find a company to operate regular cargo work BYPASSING BALPA, such that BALPA were not aware of the situation until late on in the day. At that point, partly due to a poor /non-existant SCOPE agreement it was to late to cancel the plans. BAWC then in short time ended up with not just part-loads, but 1 and then 2 aircraft.
We (BALPA) have since been trying to argue our case to the point we are now. The freighters fly purely BA Cargo around the world - that is why it is (1) BA work (2) BA work (3) BA work.
BALPA has been successful in negotiating terms at LGW, BHX and MAN in the past to keep work flown by BA pilots on the BA pilot seniority list, and could well have been in this case some years ago but were not given the opportunity.
That wrong has been rectified - to those at GSS - sorry but that is the truth - it is our work, be grateful and help us to bring the work in-house (with yourselves) at industry rates. The GSS rates of 56K UKP (year 1) + 2 UKP/hr at not industry rates!
Just another number
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A large number of GSS pilots, both in the LHS and RHS are ex BA and can understand the feeling within BA. However, it is important, particularly for those thinking of bidding, to understand the other point of view.
BAWC have been outsourcing their cargo for many years, with various operators. It was only when they had two of the Atlas aircraft dedicated to BA that BALPA and the IPA objected. GSS was formed to comply with BALPAs objection to having BA cargo flown by US crews. The BA/BALPA Scope agreement about GSS was made without the agreement or knowledge of GSS. However, those of you who have been to the George W Bush school of diplomacy will understand why GSS had to submit to BALPAs demands.
Many of the GSS F/Os gave up established careers, and some of them commands, to join GSS. They have been working hard, often more than their contracted 20 days/month, and many without leave, to ensure the success of their new employer. Several who had started their pre-command training will now possibly never achieve their command due to their age. I am pointing this out because it is important that those of you who bid are simpathetic, and treat your new colleagues with tact and diplomacy.
As has been said earlier the biggest winners are the beancounters. How can BALPA argue that one group of BA pilots are able to operate Jo'burg-Accra-Vitoria then pax on the aircraft to Stansted via Cologne whereas the others are not. How can they justify a 'BA' 744 captain earning less than a BA 744 F/O?
I realise that the two groups will never agree. Ones point of view depends on which side of the fence you are on and where your own personal advantage lies. GSS is a happy airline with hard working crews. Landing a freighter at 302 tonnes into Mumbai in the monsoon is no place for poor CRM. I'm sure that there will be no intimidation and that you will be treated with respect. In particular, the GSS training department is fair and impartial. However, please make sure that you read the full GSS terms and conditions before bidding.
Airclues
BAWC have been outsourcing their cargo for many years, with various operators. It was only when they had two of the Atlas aircraft dedicated to BA that BALPA and the IPA objected. GSS was formed to comply with BALPAs objection to having BA cargo flown by US crews. The BA/BALPA Scope agreement about GSS was made without the agreement or knowledge of GSS. However, those of you who have been to the George W Bush school of diplomacy will understand why GSS had to submit to BALPAs demands.
Many of the GSS F/Os gave up established careers, and some of them commands, to join GSS. They have been working hard, often more than their contracted 20 days/month, and many without leave, to ensure the success of their new employer. Several who had started their pre-command training will now possibly never achieve their command due to their age. I am pointing this out because it is important that those of you who bid are simpathetic, and treat your new colleagues with tact and diplomacy.
As has been said earlier the biggest winners are the beancounters. How can BALPA argue that one group of BA pilots are able to operate Jo'burg-Accra-Vitoria then pax on the aircraft to Stansted via Cologne whereas the others are not. How can they justify a 'BA' 744 captain earning less than a BA 744 F/O?
I realise that the two groups will never agree. Ones point of view depends on which side of the fence you are on and where your own personal advantage lies. GSS is a happy airline with hard working crews. Landing a freighter at 302 tonnes into Mumbai in the monsoon is no place for poor CRM. I'm sure that there will be no intimidation and that you will be treated with respect. In particular, the GSS training department is fair and impartial. However, please make sure that you read the full GSS terms and conditions before bidding.
Airclues
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Ah, yes…… let me see… lets get this right……. you have just been awarded a massive pay rise, you have enviable security of employment, the best terms and condition in the industry, a vast network, offering the total range of flying life-styles, sixty odd 747 – 400s and you want more. You want to take commands and jobs away from pilots in a small, fledgling, private, independent, UK airline with two or three 747-400 freighters - jobs and commands from fellow BALPA members who are struggling to forge a career in the harsh reality of the aviation world that exists outside BA.
And this is based, of course, on an honourable, altruistic and unselfish dogma. Now what was it? I recall: - ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’.
Now let me think …… I remember now….. BA once had a 747 freighter, G-KILO that arrived in1980 and flew for 18 months.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me!!!!
And this is based, of course, on an honourable, altruistic and unselfish dogma. Now what was it? I recall: - ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’.
Now let me think …… I remember now….. BA once had a 747 freighter, G-KILO that arrived in1980 and flew for 18 months.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me!!!!
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Eicas-GP
I have taken a pay cut thank you and will continue to earn less under the new deal for the next 4 years.
The BA pilots want to nip this sort of thing in the bud, ie having BA flights sub-contracted to cheaper crew. If this is allowed to spread it means a reduction of Ts and Cs for all.
I agree it is very harsh for the GSS Fo's, but are we to stand idly by? I personally would rather we brought them into the BA workforce.
Cheers
BB
I have taken a pay cut thank you and will continue to earn less under the new deal for the next 4 years.
The BA pilots want to nip this sort of thing in the bud, ie having BA flights sub-contracted to cheaper crew. If this is allowed to spread it means a reduction of Ts and Cs for all.
I agree it is very harsh for the GSS Fo's, but are we to stand idly by? I personally would rather we brought them into the BA workforce.
Cheers
BB
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Surely if BA crew the flts then it will not be long before they cease anyway. Let us not shy away from the facts as stated already the GSS operation is far cheaper. If you want to go down one route then you also have to ask why half of the LHR pax flts are leaving with little or no cargo.
There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.
There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.
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HZ123 - the cost will not go up , as the Terms and Conditions will be the same for a BA pilot as they are for a GSS pilot.
There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.
Isn't this a Professional Pilots Rumour Network? - probably why pilots appear to be self interested on the site.
Very priviledge occupation . . . you haven't got a clue. You're comments are not constructive, do not form rumour, and are not news - so why contribute? Probably the green eyed monster syndrome at BA which see's every community trying to erode the t's & c's of every other community, and only resulting what is currently a very depressing place to work. I have respect for my colleagues in different departments, now please accept that we are part of a team, and show us some mutual respect. My ATPL didn't come in the post with 200 nectar points, it took a great deal of time, effort and expense to earn.
I'm sure all the nurses in the NHS bitch about doctors priviledges, legal clerks and court recorders about solicitors, soldiers about their officers, I could go on. This GSS scope deal is about protecting industry terms and conditions, as someone quite rightly said, we should be aiming to get the GSS crews up to our level, with our t's & c's and on our seniority list.
There is no reason why pax drivers in the UK should be any better renumerated than freight drivers. Fedex clearly illustrates that.
To those of you at GSS - we do see it from your point of view - please try and see it from our's too.
There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.
Isn't this a Professional Pilots Rumour Network? - probably why pilots appear to be self interested on the site.
Very priviledge occupation . . . you haven't got a clue. You're comments are not constructive, do not form rumour, and are not news - so why contribute? Probably the green eyed monster syndrome at BA which see's every community trying to erode the t's & c's of every other community, and only resulting what is currently a very depressing place to work. I have respect for my colleagues in different departments, now please accept that we are part of a team, and show us some mutual respect. My ATPL didn't come in the post with 200 nectar points, it took a great deal of time, effort and expense to earn.
I'm sure all the nurses in the NHS bitch about doctors priviledges, legal clerks and court recorders about solicitors, soldiers about their officers, I could go on. This GSS scope deal is about protecting industry terms and conditions, as someone quite rightly said, we should be aiming to get the GSS crews up to our level, with our t's & c's and on our seniority list.
There is no reason why pax drivers in the UK should be any better renumerated than freight drivers. Fedex clearly illustrates that.
To those of you at GSS - we do see it from your point of view - please try and see it from our's too.
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HZ123 et al
<Let us not shy away from the facts as stated already the GSS operation is far cheaper.>
The reason that BA's costs are so high is that we have a HUGE FIXED COST BASE, this is due to the fact that we have so many employees per hull. Now with a simple grasp of economics and accounting I think that you can appreciate that the fewer flights we have (due to GSS franchises etc) the higher the fixed cost apportionment will be per flight; with more flights then it becomes lower and you've increased your margins and hence profit.
As for
<It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.>
We have as a dept just been bench marked with other operators in Europe such as Lufthansa, Air France and KLM. The findings of the initial research was that we worked more days for less money, for example Iberian pilots work 60% of the amount we do. If you want to talk about "excellent conditions" then shall we talk about baggage loaders who start on more money than an FO. Or GTS bus drivers who only do 3 or 4 return trips to the airport in one day and earn in excess of £40k per annum. Or perhaps Long Haul cabin crew who take home the equivalent of £36k per year as a junior?
We BA Pilots as a community have never tried to hold the company to ransom, have always conducted ourselves professionally and followed industrial legislation. Our sickness rate, which should be higher than the rest of the company, is 33% below the company average. All we are after is a fair set of Ts and Cs compared to our International colleagues and also a degree of protection from BA farming our work out to cheaper operatives. I'm not sure what you do HZ123 but how would you feel if they took work away from you and gave it to some chap in Calcutta with a laptop and phone line?
The Cargo is BA Cargo, the callsign is a BA call sign - the work is BA work.
<Let us not shy away from the facts as stated already the GSS operation is far cheaper.>
The reason that BA's costs are so high is that we have a HUGE FIXED COST BASE, this is due to the fact that we have so many employees per hull. Now with a simple grasp of economics and accounting I think that you can appreciate that the fewer flights we have (due to GSS franchises etc) the higher the fixed cost apportionment will be per flight; with more flights then it becomes lower and you've increased your margins and hence profit.
As for
<It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.>
We have as a dept just been bench marked with other operators in Europe such as Lufthansa, Air France and KLM. The findings of the initial research was that we worked more days for less money, for example Iberian pilots work 60% of the amount we do. If you want to talk about "excellent conditions" then shall we talk about baggage loaders who start on more money than an FO. Or GTS bus drivers who only do 3 or 4 return trips to the airport in one day and earn in excess of £40k per annum. Or perhaps Long Haul cabin crew who take home the equivalent of £36k per year as a junior?
We BA Pilots as a community have never tried to hold the company to ransom, have always conducted ourselves professionally and followed industrial legislation. Our sickness rate, which should be higher than the rest of the company, is 33% below the company average. All we are after is a fair set of Ts and Cs compared to our International colleagues and also a degree of protection from BA farming our work out to cheaper operatives. I'm not sure what you do HZ123 but how would you feel if they took work away from you and gave it to some chap in Calcutta with a laptop and phone line?
The Cargo is BA Cargo, the callsign is a BA call sign - the work is BA work.
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No I would rather end the practice of franchises, so BA aircraft and BA crews would fly the routes.
These franchises get all the benefits of BA and contribute only a small "rent" in return. With BA's high fixed cost base we'd be better off operating more flights and getting the fixed cost per flight down so that we can improve our margins.
These franchises get all the benefits of BA and contribute only a small "rent" in return. With BA's high fixed cost base we'd be better off operating more flights and getting the fixed cost per flight down so that we can improve our margins.
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Sick,
Yes mate
oh, and you may find that it's not just F/o's who may bid for these vacancies, I believe that some junior captains may too.
seriously though, ALL of us at BA would far rather get ALL of the BA work back into BA, AND get you all onto the BA seniority list.
This was offered to BAcitiexpress pilots, but there BALPA company council told us to get stuffed - their loss.
As BB says, our pay 'change' ( it was certainly not a rise for all) only benchmarked us against other european majors - nothing else. Don't believe the propoganda.
Yes mate
oh, and you may find that it's not just F/o's who may bid for these vacancies, I believe that some junior captains may too.seriously though, ALL of us at BA would far rather get ALL of the BA work back into BA, AND get you all onto the BA seniority list.
This was offered to BAcitiexpress pilots, but there BALPA company council told us to get stuffed - their loss.
As BB says, our pay 'change' ( it was certainly not a rise for all) only benchmarked us against other european majors - nothing else. Don't believe the propoganda.
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As a former member of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force I consider my time still languishing in the right hand seat on a 747-400 a disgrace.
After serving Queen and Country and being decorated many times it is certainly my right to a BA command and if GSS is the only way I can avoid another 7 years in the right hand seat then so be it.
God help us I even have to fly with ex- cadet entry captains on the 747-400 now. I've forgotten more about aviation than they'll ever know.I shall look forward to my command at GSS.
LF
After serving Queen and Country and being decorated many times it is certainly my right to a BA command and if GSS is the only way I can avoid another 7 years in the right hand seat then so be it.
God help us I even have to fly with ex- cadet entry captains on the 747-400 now. I've forgotten more about aviation than they'll ever know.I shall look forward to my command at GSS.
LF
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Still some misconceptions here amongst the BA community about franchises,- hence protagonists of their flying being taken over by mainline. The foreign based franchises could NOT be operated by BA. They do not have the traffic rights to so so and would almost certainly never get them. These companies therefore simply add reach and revenue to BA which it could otherwise never get. The UK regional operators could never sustain BA flight and cabin crew costs, the total being of course not just salary but the very expensive allowances structure as well. Even BA itself can not afford its shorthaul costs, - just look at the losses they make. Pure freight operations are very difficult to make money on. Its a very competitive market, yields are often dreadful and loads are highly directional,- hence often dead leg flying to get a decent uplift. The reality is that sub contracting is the only way for BA to make money on pure freight operations.
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1) Foreign franchises are not included in the Scope agreement.
2) BA pilots don't have a very expensive allowance structure, they have a fixed rate per block hour and a fixed hourly rate for time away from base. Just like many other airlines.
3) Our UK regional operators seem to be able to pi55 their money up the wall without our help.
4) Shorthaul 'profitability' is whatever the accountants say it is, particularly when they divvy up revenue for transfer traffic based on percentages of trip mileages rather than the going ticket rates.
5) Cathay seem to do pretty well out of their in-house freighters, as do Lufthansa. BA is already one of the worlds top ten cargo shippers on belly cargo alone, they know exactly how to make money out of the industry. Its worth a damn site more than most passenger fares currently.
By the way, HZ123 is a ramp trainer at LHR, so if you want to know why it takes two men to operate a one man tug, or why only one union can chock an aircraft then he's your man.
2) BA pilots don't have a very expensive allowance structure, they have a fixed rate per block hour and a fixed hourly rate for time away from base. Just like many other airlines.
3) Our UK regional operators seem to be able to pi55 their money up the wall without our help.
4) Shorthaul 'profitability' is whatever the accountants say it is, particularly when they divvy up revenue for transfer traffic based on percentages of trip mileages rather than the going ticket rates.
5) Cathay seem to do pretty well out of their in-house freighters, as do Lufthansa. BA is already one of the worlds top ten cargo shippers on belly cargo alone, they know exactly how to make money out of the industry. Its worth a damn site more than most passenger fares currently.
By the way, HZ123 is a ramp trainer at LHR, so if you want to know why it takes two men to operate a one man tug, or why only one union can chock an aircraft then he's your man.
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So, HZ123,
why does it take 2 people to operate a 1 man tug, why can only certain people insert chox, why does 1 team offload bags and another onload them, why will 1 team refuse to do the other teams job if they get held up on their tea break.
HZ123, why can your mates not just get on with making our pax lives easier - 'cos it's them who pay us!!?
I'm not trying to wind you up or start some sort of slanging match, but when you are sat on the ramp with 4engines running, waiting for a tug, or when you see pax bags not being offloaded when there is a team there, then it does make the blood boil, 'cos if this sort of carry on doen't get sorted then we are ALL off to the Staines job centre.
Of course it's not always like this, most of the time your mates do a great job, but, it's the really crap days (of which there are no more) which everyone, mainly our customers, remember.
why does it take 2 people to operate a 1 man tug, why can only certain people insert chox, why does 1 team offload bags and another onload them, why will 1 team refuse to do the other teams job if they get held up on their tea break.
HZ123, why can your mates not just get on with making our pax lives easier - 'cos it's them who pay us!!?
I'm not trying to wind you up or start some sort of slanging match, but when you are sat on the ramp with 4engines running, waiting for a tug, or when you see pax bags not being offloaded when there is a team there, then it does make the blood boil, 'cos if this sort of carry on doen't get sorted then we are ALL off to the Staines job centre.
Of course it's not always like this, most of the time your mates do a great job, but, it's the really crap days (of which there are no more) which everyone, mainly our customers, remember.