Best airlines to work for as a Pilot in Europe

[122.85]

Originally Posted by plumponpies

I think the best kept action UK aviation is DHL Air. Lifestyle, T’s&Cs, the people.

agree there are great people there but rosters are limited unless you Cincinnati and Hong Kong

[SimoFly]

Originally Posted by oboema

….KLM is planning drop the Dutch language requirement, as it is looking to hire around 250 pilots this year and more in the coming years due to expansion and retirements

Before moving to the airbus as an FO initially for an airline in Europe on A320 and then on the A380 in the ME I used to be a CPT on the citation mustang and I had long stays in AMS on my work rotations, I got to know few pilots working for the local airlines quite well, if I may I would like to tell you something, I lived in many countries in Europe, in the US as well as in the ME now there are no people I found to be more racist and arrogant than the Dutch people, the dutch aviation market is very protectionist and even though they might drop the language requirement I dont think for foreigners it would be a good working environment.
If someone is willing to move away from home and is willing to work and respect the different nationalities, Emirates is a good airline to work for despite the few Brits and Aussies that try to ruin the place.

[redsnail]

Aussies that try to ruin the place.

Ahh the dreaded Austronauts...

[LandCruiserFTW]

Originally Posted by SimoFly

Before moving to the airbus as an FO initially for an airline in Europe on A320 and then on the A380 in the ME I used to be a CPT on the citation mustang and I had long stays in AMS on my work rotations, I got to know few pilots working for the local airlines quite well, if I may I would like to tell you something, I lived in many countries in Europe, in the US as well as in the ME now there are no people I found to be more racist and arrogant than the Dutch people, the dutch aviation market is very protectionist and even though they might drop the language requirement I dont think for foreigners it would be a good working environment.
If someone is willing to move away from home and is willing to work and respect the different nationalities, Emirates is a good airline to work for despite the few Brits and Aussies that try to ruin the place.

The thread is named "...in Europe". The problem of working in the ME is no protection at all. Ask your ex-colleagues who were never called back after covid. It is good for money, that's all. Constantly tired. Crossing the timezones. Sleeping mostly in the aircraft... unfortunately, unless you work for unionized airline in Europe, it is not a great job anymore. At least in Europe, where certain CAAs are accepting ICAO pilots from third countries flying EU registered aircraft thus screwing conditions for all of us.
Also I have never had any issues with Dutch despite there are many of them in QR. You are talking about respecting the others and at the same time you are blaming certain nationalities that they are trying to ruin Emirates. Pathetic.

From my point of view I can tell that good employers in Europe are Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Cargolux, Aerologic, NetJets Europe, Flexjet Europe. They all have one in common - Unions and they do respect seniority.
(note: I have zero knowledge about BA and Virgin)

[SliabhLuachra]

Originally Posted by tecnamflyer

I definitely wouldn't say aer lingus. The place is rumoured to be riddled with CRM issues and an outdated cockpit gradient philosophy. Nepotism is rife from recruitment to promotions. It's more about union/company politics than flying. They run a very tiring 5/2/5/3 roster on short haul, they're launching these narrow A321LRs deep into the USA. They run a comparatively limited route network (compared to the likes of BA etc), plus you pay very high Irish tax, USC and PRSI. All leads to relatively low pay for quite a number of years. The pension is about the only good thing going for the place. People are actually leaving aer lingus, including Irish. This was unheard of in years gone by.

I have to say respectfully disagree with some of that. (Caveat: I do not work for them).

• Roster is 5/3 not 5/2/5/3
• I haven't heard the same CRM issues you mention from many friends I have at the airline apart from the occasional oddball captain which you will get everywhere.
• Tax is high in Ireland but the marginal rate is lower than Spain, France, Denmark, Austria, Netherlands, Portugal and some others because of the recent reductions over the past few years and increases in the standard rate cut-off. Of course you don't quite get the bang for your buck you do in some of those countries in my list...
• Pension is one of the best in the industry.
• Pay-wise I think it's a lot better after the union intervened last year and the 18% increases for current and 30% increase for new joiners happened.
• Agreed that there are more people than normal (including Irish nationals) who have left in the past few years, anecdotally.

It would be good to hear from some people who are actually in the know on the day-to-day in Aer Lingus though and whether it's gotten better than what it was and what the general sentiment is.

[SimoFly]

Originally Posted by LandCruiserFTW

The thread is named "...in Europe". The problem of working in the ME is no protection at all. Ask your ex-colleagues who were never called back after covid. It is good for money, that's all. Constantly tired. Crossing the timezones. Sleeping mostly in the aircraft... unfortunately, unless you work for unionized airline in Europe, it is not a great job anymore. At least in Europe, where certain CAAs are accepting ICAO pilots from third countries flying EU registered aircraft thus screwing conditions for all of us.
Also I have never had any issues with Dutch despite there are many of them in QR. You are talking about respecting the others and at the same time you are blaming certain nationalities that they are trying to ruin Emirates. Pathetic.

From my point of view I can tell that good employers in Europe are Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Cargolux, Aerologic, NetJets Europe, Flexjet Europe. They all have one in common - Unions and they do respect seniority.
(note: I have zero knowledge about BA and Virgin)

Indeed the thread is named "...in Europe", but as you might have noticed I mentioned "If someone is willing to move".
I agree about the protections and working conditions in the ME, but again it is a personal decision those issues you are mentioning are also present in Europe unfortunately for a much lower salary.
My decision to blame certain nationalities come from the fact that I constantly see and hear negative comments against the ME and the locals, you can call me pathetic but I do not respect those attitudes. I am basing my opinion on my experience and the environment I live in. Maybe you took it personal because you are one of them.

[Mad Jack]

Originally Posted by LandCruiserFTW

At least in Europe, where certain CAAs are accepting ICAO pilots from third countries flying EU registered aircraft thus screwing conditions for all of us.

Don’t blame the CAAs….blame the airlines themselves for exercising such a legal opportunity to provide a solution to their crewing problems. I could be wrong, but the ability to validate an ICAO licence to fly a locally registered aircraft is something that a CAA being a signatory to ICAO must allow.

[PPRuNeUser481044]

Originally Posted by SliabhLuachra

I have to say respectfully disagree with some of that. (Caveat: I do not work for them).

• Roster is 5/3 not 5/2/5/3
• I haven't heard the same CRM issues you mention from many friends I have at the airline apart from the occasional oddball captain which you will get everywhere.
• Tax is high in Ireland but the marginal rate is lower than Spain, France, Denmark, Austria, Netherlands, Portugal and some others because of the recent reductions over the past few years and increases in the standard rate cut-off. Of course you don't quite get the bang for your buck you do in some of those countries in my list...
• Pension is one of the best in the industry.
• Pay-wise I think it's a lot better after the union intervened last year and the 18% increases for current and 30% increase for new joiners happened.
• Agreed that there are more people than normal (including Irish nationals) who have left in the past few years, anecdotally.

It would be good to hear from some people who are actually in the know on the day-to-day in Aer Lingus though and whether it's gotten better than what it was and what the general sentiment is.

I am sure you heard the infamous audio that did the rounds of the captain gleefully denying a jumpseat to an FO colleague, and recording it? That's the tip of the iceberg in regards the CRM situation in that place. Also, how many Youtube videos are there of Aer Lingus pilots embarrassing themselves in the US, where their superiority complex clearly comes through? SFO .. JFK too, more than once.

A cadet now FO won't have anything to compare to as they won't know any better (the cadetship is notoriously nepotistic too so there is that element as well). An FO with experience of other "norms" is going to be the one to spot the abnormalities and differences. When FOs are leaving Aer Lingus and rejoining Ryanair, something is clearly up. "Treading on eggshells" is what more than one person has said about operating there. There is a much steeper authority gradient. Also, you fall out with one captain, enter the reports and HR/union .. and you will find out you have fallen out with all the captains. It is not by chance that you have specific family names in the airline represented by multiple current and past pilots .. not when thousands apply for the cadetship yet handfuls are taken. When the head of pilot HR stands up at the beginning of a recruitment day and specifically says "we audit our process to make sure it's corruption free", it's a bit odd - no? Ryanair, Emirates, BA, Virgin et al don't feel the need to have to say this?

Wasn't there a document released last year that stated all walkarounds are to be performed by the FO unless the captain dictates otherwise? And that it was the FO's duty to remove the rubbish bag from the flight deck post duty? And that the FO needed to consult the captain before getting up after shutdown? Where I fly, this nonsense is unheard of. We are equals, the captain has ultimate say on matters and there is no doubt, but the FO isn't a lapdog expected to request the PIC's permission to eat their sandwich. It's about flying, not politics.

They took on a bunch of European pilots in the last few yrs who seem to have mostly left. The Irish leaving is the eyeopener, this was unheard of. They do love the cadets, partly because it pays for the training of their own family/close friends/union interests, the company get to pay them a low wage for x years, the cadets don't know any better so will accept nonsense treatment as per above, and they are also less likely to leave due not knowing what other places are like/by the time they are free of the bond they may as well stay for command. Direct entries on the other hand will cause "issues" and more likely to leave sooner.

Yes, a great pension, probably the best around, but I'd like to enjoy my life before I get to pension age too ..

Edit to add: I see you are not a pilot and have been trying for their cadetship. If one day you do become a pilot, it will all make more sense and you will really "feel" what I mean. Now it's all about becoming a pilot and none of this means anything, or sounds exaggerated.

[dirk85]

the easyJet european (non UK) contracts can be pretty damn good as well, once on the left seat, or SFO.
At least if you are not in your twenties, and don't speak german, french or dutch

[CVividasku]

Originally Posted by Fakiiri

As far as airlines go, based on my research, only AF/KLM come close to pay and quality of life as the major airlines provide in the US.

Be prepared to pay 70% of your income in taxes

[Consol]

Originally Posted by tecnamflyer

I am sure you heard the infamous audio that did the rounds of the captain gleefully denying a jumpseat to an FO colleague, and recording it? That's the tip of the iceberg in regards the CRM situation in that place. Also, how many Youtube videos are there of Aer Lingus pilots embarrassing themselves in the US, where their superiority complex clearly comes through? SFO .. JFK too, more than once.

A cadet now FO won't have anything to compare to as they won't know any better (the cadetship is notoriously nepotistic too so there is that element as well). An FO with experience of other "norms" is going to be the one to spot the abnormalities and differences. When FOs are leaving Aer Lingus and rejoining Ryanair, something is clearly up. "Treading on eggshells" is what more than one person has said about operating there. There is a much steeper authority gradient. Also, you fall out with one captain, enter the reports and HR/union .. and you will find out you have fallen out with all the captains. It is not by chance that you have specific family names in the airline represented by multiple current and past pilots .. not when thousands apply for the cadetship yet handfuls are taken. When the head of pilot HR stands up at the beginning of a recruitment day and specifically says "we audit our process to make sure it's corruption free", it's a bit odd - no? Ryanair, Emirates, BA, Virgin et al don't feel the need to have to say this?

Wasn't there a document released last year that stated all walkarounds are to be performed by the FO unless the captain dictates otherwise? And that it was the FO's duty to remove the rubbish bag from the flight deck post duty? And that the FO needed to consult the captain before getting up after shutdown? Where I fly, this nonsense is unheard of. We are equals, the captain has ultimate say on matters and there is no doubt, but the FO isn't a lapdog expected to request the PIC's permission to eat their sandwich. It's about flying, not politics.

They took on a bunch of European pilots in the last few yrs who seem to have mostly left. The Irish leaving is the eyeopener, this was unheard of. They do love the cadets, partly because it pays for the training of their own family/close friends/union interests, the company get to pay them a low wage for x years, the cadets don't know any better so will accept nonsense treatment as per above, and they are also less likely to leave due not knowing what other places are like/by the time they are free of the bond they may as well stay for command. Direct entries on the other hand will cause "issues" and more likely to leave sooner.

Yes, a great pension, probably the best around, but I'd like to enjoy my life before I get to pension age too ..

Edit to add: I see you are not a pilot and have been trying for their cadetship. If one day you do become a pilot, it will all make more sense and you will really "feel" what I mean. Now it's all about becoming a pilot and none of this means anything, or sounds exaggerated.

Quite a tirade there Tecnam,
You seem to have gotten a little bit of truth and then gone to work on exaggerating it and being just misleading.
From what I have heard the j/s audio was, let's just say a special case.
Day to day flying in AL is safe and relaxed with very good CRM. Nearly always leg on/off.
Lots of different nationalities there including in LHS and instructing. Walk arounds generally split.
Equal, well a 250 hour pilot is probably not going to get a 38kt crosswind landing and maybe a 15 000 hour Captain knows a bit more about managing difficult days, something called experience and keeping people safe. FOs there get lots of varied and challenging legs. Probably better to avoid the ME and have a RHS 10kt crosswind limit or join BA and have someone else set thrust reverse.
Pilots making a fool of themselves at outstations? If you say so. Definitely better to avoid VS or BA then (you seem to want BA). The A380 has a rep.
They do like their cadets but even they come from a much broader base and the majority of pilots seem to be DEP now.
Irish taxes and prices are high but you know that.
Seems a couple of carriers didn't fit you, your choice. It's a thread about good airlines to work for, no harm in a bit of balance and accuracy.
Good luck with the BA application.

[PPRuNeUser481044]

I appreciate you taking the time to search my profile (?) .. so I took a glance, to discover you've wanted to defend aer lingus when others have stated the same truths more than once? You don't seem to like the truth.

To call it misleading/exaggerated, when it's all over YouTube? Were they recorded on vatsim or what? So, the j/s captain audio is correct, but he's a "special case". So, how many of these "special cases" do they have exactly? At what stage is it no longer the exception but the culture? and the company putting it in black and white that the F/O is the binman, was this fabricated? Did that document came from thin air, or because captains pressured company into it .. "to re-establish discipline", because their egos weren't being stroked?

I don't say so mate, they say so, and we know that because they air it all. The ME place I know doesn't restrict FO sto 10 kts and RE BA, a BA pilot can clarify that one. Frankly this isn't the point though and highlights your misunderstandings. We don't care who sets thrust or the x-wind limit, but the moment I'm demanded to take out the rubbish and told I can't use a specific coat hangar - I'm out. Coincidentally, I take out the trash on most of my flights and I'm usually early to the aircraft and get the walk around done (despite FO rarely being PM first sector) - it's in good faith .. a big difference. The 15000 hr captain and 250 hr are equals as humans, despite the captain being the source of most wisdom, except that one time he misses something that the 250hr FO sees. You don't seem to grasp this - that has the potential to be deadly.

[hunterboy]

It does seem odd that all the Irish pilots I’ve flown with in BA have been real gents and fun to fly with, and I hope we operate with a very shallow cockpit gradient. I’m surprised to hear that the Irish put up with that crap in their home airline.
Btw, BA have finally stopped with the Trident SOP’s and we pull our own reversers now. 👍

[CruiseMonkey]

I think tecnam might have the wrong end of the stick with this. The vast, vast majority of days out are enjoyable, professional and relaxed.

[enzino]

Originally Posted by hunterboy

It does seem odd that all the Irish pilots I’ve flown with in BA have been real gents and fun to fly with, and I hope we operate with a very shallow cockpit gradient. I’m surprised to hear that the Irish put up with that crap in their home airline.
Btw, BA have finally stopped with the Trident SOP’s and we pull our own reversers now. 👍

What about changing roles at 1000 ft AAL? Is that gone too?

[PPRuNeUser481044]

Originally Posted by hunterboy

It does seem odd that all the Irish pilots I’ve flown with in BA have been real gents and fun to fly with, and I hope we operate with a very shallow cockpit gradient. I’m surprised to hear that the Irish put up with that crap in their home airline.
Btw, BA have finally stopped with the Trident SOP’s and we pull our own reversers now. 👍

I don't think it's an Irish thing, I work for an irish airline and fly with a lot of irish guys who are totally fine

[Duca]

Originally Posted by dirk85

At least if you are not in your twenties, and don't speak german, french or dutch

Why do you think easyjet is not a good option for people in their twenties?

[Consol]

Originally Posted by tecnamflyer

I appreciate you taking the time to search my profile (?) .. so I took a glance, to discover you've wanted to defend aer lingus when others have stated the same truths more than once? You don't seem to like the truth.

To call it misleading/exaggerated, when it's all over YouTube? Were they recorded on vatsim or what? So, the j/s captain audio is correct, but he's a "special case". So, how many of these "special cases" do they have exactly? At what stage is it no longer the exception but the culture? and the company putting it in black and white that the F/O is the binman, was this fabricated? Did that document came from thin air, or because captains pressured company into it .. "to re-establish discipline", because their egos weren't being stroked?

I don't say so mate, they say so, and we know that because they air it all. The ME place I know doesn't restrict FO sto 10 kts and RE BA, a BA pilot can clarify that one. Frankly this isn't the point though and highlights your misunderstandings. We don't care who sets thrust or the x-wind limit, but the moment I'm demanded to take out the rubbish and told I can't use a specific coat hangar - I'm out. Coincidentally, I take out the trash on most of my flights and I'm usually early to the aircraft and get the walk around done (despite FO rarely being PM first sector) - it's in good faith .. a big difference. The 15000 hr captain and 250 hr are equals as humans, despite the captain being the source of most wisdom, except that one time he misses something that the 250hr FO sees. You don't seem to grasp this - that has the potential to be deadly.

You’re Welcome Tecnam,

You got a little bit overwrought there didn’t you? It went from coat hangers and rubbish bags to ‘deadly’ in a sentence or two. I’ve several decades of flying, CRM training and safety work so yes, I definitely grasp ‘this’. It sounds a bit like you applied for EI and either didn’t get in or left. Either is fine with me and I’m no EI fan boy, far from it, but now you’re spouting emotive nonsense on a thread about good airlines to work for.
Regarding your horror of moving a small plastic bag with sandwich wrappers and coffee cups in it about two meters, well step up the new Rosa Parks. It’s a requirement to keep the cockpit tidy (a SAFA audit pick up). My understanding of it is either pilot or a cleaner removes it but you just have your bit of persecution.
The incident you described with the j/s was highly exceptional but you seem determined to imply it’s not by ‘asking the question’. No it isn’t, clear enough for you or do you need a PhD thesis on it?
I hope the BA gig works out for you, let us know how you get on. It’s a very long haul airline and I just have the feeling that a leg with you could be ultra long haul.

[PPRuNeUser481044]

Originally Posted by Consol

It’s a very long haul airline and I just have the feeling that a leg with you could be ultra long haul.

Indeed, I never was one to suffer fools lightly.

[dirk85]

Originally Posted by Duca

Why do you think easyjet is not a good option for people in their twenties?

If you are young and speak one of those languages, your first option should be KLM/AF/LH long term. Later in life making the switch might not be worthwhile financially