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British Airways Direct Entry Pilot

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British Airways Direct Entry Pilot

Old 28th Apr 2023, 21:43
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Originally Posted by Speed_Trim_Fail
Am I the only one slightly confused as to why FD access policy is on a DEP thread?

I mean itís better than seniority again
Probably not as wannabe DEPs are most likely soaking up opinions from the inside before they take the leap of faith.
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Old 28th Apr 2023, 22:00
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Max Angle
Pilots on leisure travel CAN'T
Completely incorrect. Suggest you read exactly what it says in OMa. Pilots on leisure travel most certainly CAN. If certain criteria are metÖitís all there in the BA OMa
the exact wording is no accident; i hope those above that think leisure FD access is a no-no arent current BA CaptainsÖ
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Old 6th May 2023, 10:13
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Originally Posted by 3Greens
Completely incorrect. Suggest you read exactly what it says in OMa. Pilots on leisure travel most certainly CAN. If certain criteria are met…it’s all there in the BA OMa
the exact wording is no accident; i hope those above that think leisure FD access is a no-no arent current BA Captains…
3Greens ever so sadly you meet some on the line that are. It seems to be the majority with this POV (but not exclusively) are ex Midland captains. I’ve heard numerous references from them to the idea that for BA pilots or cabin crew to travel on a FD JS they must be commuting to or from the station involved, which is stated absolutely nowhere in OM-A operating policy. As you have alluded to, the wording in OM-A has clearly been deliberately chosen so as to be permissive, not the other way around.

The story where a 787 Captain was refused access to a FD JS coming back to work after finishing a holiday in LCA (operating the next day) takes the cake. He was travelling entirely within the scope of the wording in OM-A but was denied by the operating skipper as he “doesn’t live in Larnaca”. I’d like to think if I’d been the FO involved on that flight I’d have told my Captain I was prepared to offload myself unless they could give a clear justification why they were deviating from company policy written in OM-A. It’s absolutely infuriating when people make up their own rules which aren’t written anywhere but even more so when it totally screws a colleague over for no good reason.

Last edited by Plastic787; 6th May 2023 at 10:53.
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Old 6th May 2023, 16:34
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Plastic787
3Greens ever so sadly you meet some on the line that are. It seems to be the majority with this POV (but not exclusively) are ex Midland captains. Iíve heard numerous references from them to the idea that for BA pilots or cabin crew to travel on a FD JS they must be commuting to or from the station involved, which is stated absolutely nowhere in OM-A operating policy. As you have alluded to, the wording in OM-A has clearly been deliberately chosen so as to be permissive, not the other way around.

The story where a 787 Captain was refused access to a FD JS coming back to work after finishing a holiday in LCA (operating the next day) takes the cake. He was travelling entirely within the scope of the wording in OM-A but was denied by the operating skipper as he ďdoesnít live in LarnacaĒ. Iíd like to think if Iíd been the FO involved on that flight Iíd have told my Captain I was prepared to offload myself unless they could give a clear justification why they were deviating from company policy written in OM-A. Itís absolutely infuriating when people make up their own rules which arenít written anywhere but even more so when it totally screws a colleague over for no good reason.
Offload yourself, are you serious? Regardless of the rules is it not the Captain's decision at the end of the day?
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Old 6th May 2023, 17:07
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Originally Posted by Confusious
Offload yourself, are you serious? Regardless of the rules is it not the Captain's decision at the end of the day?
Yes I am deadly serious, it’s a team game. Help out your colleagues, it’s not difficult. Second of all the captain in question was risking a cancellation to the operation (especially in the current climate) the following day with his petty and unmalleable misinterpretation of OM-A operating policy, whether deliberate or not. If I can’t trust you to exercise pragmatic judgement and interpret company policy to a simple and positive conclusion with such a simple issue like that I cannot trust your judgement elsewhere and therefore I’m not flying with you. End of story.

Last edited by Plastic787; 6th May 2023 at 23:32.
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Old 7th May 2023, 11:33
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Plastic787
Yes I am deadly serious, itís a team game. Help out your colleagues, itís not difficult. Second of all the captain in question was risking a cancellation to the operation (especially in the current climate) the following day with his petty and unmalleable misinterpretation of OM-A operating policy, whether deliberate or not. If I canít trust you to exercise pragmatic judgement and interpret company policy to a simple and positive conclusion with such a simple issue like that I cannot trust your judgement elsewhere and therefore Iím not flying with you. End of story.
And how do you think the subsequent chat with Flt OPS management would go?

Edit to Add: our manuals are also pretty explicit as to who's responsible for getting back in time to report for your next duty, and it's not the operating captain on the oversold flight you're trying to jumpseat on.
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Old 7th May 2023, 12:49
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Quite why this is being discussed here, Iím not sure.

Anyway, an interesting perspective from Plastic787. Because the operating captain canít make a pragmatic decision (ie his is the wrong one) he is petty, unmalleable (meaning you want to mould him) and canít be trusted. So, you would get off, of course cancelling the flight you were rostered to do. HmmmÖ Best you swap seats then as you appear to think you are the captain! In addition, Iím sure ops would be overjoyed by your rational decision process.

There may be many reasons why he may exercise his right to refuse a request. For example, as a long time trainer, I never took anyone on the flight deck that had no role to play in the training. This was purely for the benefit of the trainee to avoid any pressure or should things not go quite as planned. Despite a couple of complaints to Flt Ops, the answer was always the same; it is for the captain to decide.

Me
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Old 7th May 2023, 14:12
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Two replies above spoken like individuals who would happily shaft a colleague for no good reason (this was not a training flight) other than to make a point to somebody when the Ops manual clearly allows it.

So you’re basically saying you’d poison your relationship with a colleague and potential future flightdeck partner over a perceived point of principle so you can play the big I am “I’m the captain what I say goes”? Wow. Just wow. I hope to never have to share a flight deck with you.

anyway best take this argument elsewhere as I’m obviously the king (or queen) of thread drift. ATB.

Last edited by Plastic787; 7th May 2023 at 15:06.
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Old 7th May 2023, 16:38
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Sage parting advice on successful command checks Ďďnot all ***** are in the lhsĒ.

seek first to understand, before being understood.
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Old 7th May 2023, 17:13
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Originally Posted by Plastic787
Two replies above spoken like individuals who would happily shaft a colleague for no good reason (this was not a training flight) other than to make a point to somebody when the Ops manual clearly allows it.

So youíre basically saying youíd poison your relationship with a colleague and potential future flightdeck partner over a perceived point of principle so you can play the big I am ďIím the captain what I say goesĒ? Wow. Just wow. I hope to never have to share a flight deck with you.

anyway best take this argument elsewhere as Iím obviously the king (or queen) of thread drift. ATB.
Someone has been blessed with an enormous chip on their shoulder. Hopefully your comments are influenced by keyboard warrior syndrome. Firstly, I would suggest a reread of your initial comment which is somewhat contradictory; you referred to how poor it was of the Captain to POTENTIALLY disrupt the company operation, then you go on to say that you WOULD disrupt the situation to prove your point. I'm sure all here appreciate the importance of teamwork and CRM, but your knowledge appears to have one gigantic gap in it; the buck does stop at the Captain. Sorry to break that news to you but it's a vital piece on knowledge that should not escape any crew member's attention. Frankly you're either a troll or an individual bordering lunacy. Please answer this one question honestly, so that we can grasp some reality out of your outbursts; Would you send an email to management stating how you'd offload yourself from a flight down route in the event that you did not agree with a Captain's decision? And regarding the thread drift, yes this is well off piste but hopefully educational for any potential newbies to the company. They will no doubt draw their own conclusions based on their experiences, training and common sense.
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Old 7th May 2023, 17:33
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Originally Posted by Confusious
Please answer this one question honestly, so that we can grasp some reality out of your outbursts; Would you send an email to management stating how you'd offload yourself from a flight down route in the event that you did not agree with a Captain's decision?.
And just to add for clarity, the captains decision you would offload yourself for is s/he not allowing someone on a leisure ticket on the flight deck jumpseat? That's the hill you're prepared to die on?
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Old 7th May 2023, 21:24
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Any Captain in any airline who would refuse to board a company colleague of any rank, for any reason, is a top class knobhead who shouldn't be in charge of the crew bus let alone a jet. End of.
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Old 7th May 2023, 22:22
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
Any Captain in any airline who would refuse to board a company colleague of any rank, for any reason, is a top class knobhead who shouldn't be in charge of the crew bus let alone a jet. End of.
And that contribution is no more than an unnecessary inarticulate digression, further drifting away from the thread. The issue being discussed is the willingness of a First Officer to risk highly probable disciplinary implications purely to make a stand against a Captain's decision.

Last edited by Confusious; 7th May 2023 at 23:22.
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Old 8th May 2023, 00:41
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Originally Posted by Confusious
And that contribution is no more than an unnecessary inarticulate digression, further drifting away from the thread. The issue being discussed is the willingness of a First Officer to risk highly probable disciplinary implications purely to make a stand against a Captain's decision.
But not incorrect.....
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Old 8th May 2023, 05:42
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Originally Posted by Confusious
And that contribution is no more than an unnecessary inarticulate digression, further drifting away from the thread. The issue being discussed is the willingness of a First Officer to risk highly probable disciplinary implications purely to make a stand against a Captain's decision.
The issue is a captain making a decision that is not supported by the company procedures, and the FO rightfully disagreeing. (was trying to find more articulate nonsense, but you would definitely beat me with the syllable count)
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Old 8th May 2023, 08:08
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As for the subject title; BA DEP, and prospective applicants looking in - these people are real, they do exist, in BA in numbers greater than any airlines I have encountered, (even round towards the Pacific). It's something to consider. I still shudder when I think back
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Old 8th May 2023, 08:56
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Originally Posted by midnight cruiser
As for the subject title; BA DEP, and prospective applicants looking in - these people are real, they do exist, in BA in numbers greater than any airlines I have encountered, (even round towards the Pacific). It's something to consider. I still shudder when I think back
I have worked in the Pacific and at BA and that statement is utter rubbish the crews at BA are very relaxed and apart from a very very small minority would bend over backwards to help fellow crew (and other companies staff).
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Old 8th May 2023, 09:10
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It's true to say they tend not to suffer fools out East, whereas at BA, they certainly exist!
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Old 10th May 2023, 12:25
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The last few posts on this thread are exactly why BA sounds like a terrible place to work. Superiority Complexes left, right and centre. Don't agree with the Captains decision = offloading yourself? Enjoy that meeting with the DFO.
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Old 10th May 2023, 13:35
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Originally Posted by marcus1290
The last few posts on this thread are exactly why BA sounds like a terrible place to work. Superiority Complexes left, right and centre. Don't agree with the Captains decision = offloading yourself? Enjoy that meeting with the DFO.
Indeed, and who remembers when the pursers tried to argue the case that they should be second in charge and First Officers third?
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