Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Worldwide Redundant Pilots-Smile Please

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Worldwide Redundant Pilots-Smile Please

Old 30th Aug 2020, 19:03
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,823
Err, I think he was referring to guy_incognito
Superpilot is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2020, 19:23
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8

It's already been proven that there's a market for paying to fly at all levels. A while ago, Eaglejet were offering the chance to fly 500 hours as PIC on the 747 for something like $50k. The requirements for that "job" were pretty much the same as you'd expect for a standard DEC position (significant wide body command time required). They wouldn't have been advertising it if there wasn't a market for it.

Regardless of the salaries on offer, starry-eyed kids will still be lining up to fork over mortgage-sized sums for training, so that they can post pictures on Instagram and Facebook, resplendent in their two stripes and aviators. Flying is highly vocational; people will want to do it regardless of earning potential. People will take on second or third jobs just so that they can fly. It's a minor miracle that salaries have remained as high as they have for as long as they have. Any de-skilled job with an incredibly low academic bar to entry is obviously not going to attract a high salary. That is the cold reality of the situation.

The only way the slide could have been arrested is through strong and aggressive unionisation. You just have to look at the salaries and benefits enjoyed by train/ tube drivers to see the power of 100% union membership and the willingness to go on strike to curb management excesses.
guy_incognito is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2020, 20:26
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 447
Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
Those managers thinking they will snap their fingers and hand out reduced contracts to rejoiners may be in for a shock.
Are you sure about that? For the last 20 years airline flying has been a subtle form of masochism. There will be a line quickly formed, ready to take their "punishment". A few sly ones will see that bizjets were not so bad after all and change their opinion of what constitutes "quality" aviation. I suspect 99% will be rightly told to "jog on".
Private jet is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2020, 20:28
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 102

Whoops. I thought guy was very chilled as well...
Meester proach is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2020, 06:20
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 65
The examples you give are not common. This is exagerration.
MonarchOrBust is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2020, 06:42
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8
As I said: delusion.

40k is still above the average salary in the UK, and is more than most could expect to earn with the qualifications profile required to get an airline job. There is no competition among airlines to attract "the best" candidates, as there would be in other trades. The airline industry will recover in time, but reasonable crew Ts&Cs are gone forever.
guy_incognito is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2020, 12:13
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 102

Whilst I’d agree on the P2F ( and that’s always existed, I remember folk paying for 737 TRs back in 95 ), I’d take issue with the deskilled bit......every time I go in the sim it doesn’t feel like it, and we are paid for the experience , knowledge and responsibility ....not the hand eye coordination ...which has been of lesser importance since the 50s with the advent of autopilots to help.

RE the academic bar, well, that’s primarily the flying schools trying to get people through the door. 5 GCSEs min is it ?
However the bar was always set higher by airlines recruiting for cadets. I think the 10000 going for the 100 BA cadetships back in the early 90s had to have three decent A levels min. That is where I’d pitch it, as that seems about the level.

A lot of countries insist on degrees, but that seems a bit OTT to me.
Meester proach is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2020, 17:16
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 130
I probably should not post on here as I am not a redundant pilot and due to several very fortunate circumstances face no chance of becoming one (again!). However, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the positive comments on here. Thanks, keep it positive and good luck!
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2020, 17:33
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: gatwick
Age: 47
Posts: 72
Well, so pleased to see such a positive post.

One caveat, don't use the words no chance. Just an experienced fellow of the world.
rotorwills is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 16:08
  #50 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Mecca
Posts: 34
Thumbs up

Two things we’re all gonna have to agree on.
a) The cards have been dealt. ie layoffs, involuntary and voluntary redundancies and retirements, wage cuts, terminations, no pay leave etc etc have now all happened.
b) The deck has now been shuffled. ie pilots from all strata of experience, all levels of performance, all nationalities of the world and working in all airlines in the world and based in most countries the world over have been effected and are now in this pool of ‘available’ pilots.
That said, one thing is for sure. Be it a month from now of a year from now but aviation HAS TO OPEN UP to the traveling public who has grown so used to crossing borders as if they were simply neighborhoods.
Once airlines open up to the travel demand, their recruiters are quite surely going to look to this shuffled up deck of pilots from the world over to pick the best of the lot. Or at least to pick the most of the best. Be it simply to have bums on seats. That said, in order to sustain the level of recruitment then, it is very likely that those very recruiters would offer above market salaries and conditions so as to attract the available lot and then have a picking out of that lot. The ones left behind ( relatively less experienced or qualified ) may well find themselves facing t n c ‘s which might well be below current market values.
I predict that when all this opens up, at least initially, the t n c’s offered by the initial recruiter may well match or even exceed that of pre covid levels initially. And that would only be for one reason and one reason alone. To attract the best available on the hold, in the shortest possible time frame. NO ONE would want their planes on ground again be it for the reverse reasons this time ie shortage of a pilot. No one ! And they will be willing to pay a premium for that fact alone.
Needless to say, the vaccine will be the game changer …

Last edited by Lucifer786; 1st Sep 2020 at 19:12.
Lucifer786 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2020, 10:01
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: European Administrative Area (Western District and Islands)
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
I probably should not post on here as I am not a redundant pilot and due to several very fortunate circumstances face no chance of becoming one (again!). However, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the positive comments on here. Thanks, keep it positive and good luck!
Hi Noel, we work for the same operator but I'm wondering if your very fortunate circumstances might (at least partly) be same ones which are attracting the red light beam to my forehead! After a 30y career (15 in aviation) where apart from a 3 week stint of redundancy when I was 22, I've managed to dodge the axe more times than I can mention, but looks like my luck has finally run out. Though I love flying, it's not part of my identity and I'm certainly not in love every aspect of the lifestyle. My family are being regularly briefed using my best sales skills for a potentially "soul enriching" change of circumstances. Being cast out the wrong side of 50 into the jaws of what I think history will show as a lost decade, with a non-transferrable skillset and previous career experience perished through time, is affecting my sleep a little. My comfort blanket is embracing the belief everything happens for a reason.

Best of luck to everyone. It's been quite cathartic writing this - thanks OP!
six-sixty is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2020, 10:43
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 102
I can’t see how recovery can begin in the U.K., when every week the government changes where you have to quarantine from. How can anyone plan a holiday when they may lose their job on return.

UK government please stop it and get some airport testing sorted out before you destroy all civil aviation !
Meester proach is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2020, 21:13
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 66
Does anyone actually know how many pilots there are redundant worldwide?
srjumbo747 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2020, 22:19
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 428
Nobody knows. But the more interesting question is how many of them intend to return to flying. Many past their mid-50s don't, as per my observations. Many much younger ones already wanted to pull out and this crisis was the final straw which broke the camel's back. Many who are not redundant will retire or pull out in the next 3 years or so. So, speaking of experienced pilots, the number of applicants for jobs will not be equal to the number of those made redundant. But by how many?
PilotLZ is online now  
Old 4th Sep 2020, 05:39
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Neither here or there
Posts: 137
I'd say right now not as high as we might think, judging by news headlines 8000 globally? Of course about to double over the winter season.

I'm with PilotLZ, there is a certain population of pilot that will not be interested any more. And frankly many of these would become victims of recruitment age bias, especially outside of Europe. They know their career is already over. Look around you, this age group of 55+ is very significant. That's a big vacuum that will need to be filled in a few years time.
CW247 is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2020, 10:29
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
... I am not a redundant pilot and due to several very fortunate circumstances face no chance of becoming one (again!). ...
I apologise if I might have given a misleading impression that I have some 'golden ticket' to avoid redundancy. I am one of those who is going to be forced out due to age (they call it 'retirement'!). Yes, some may not want to continue, but there are still some of us who thoroughly enjoy the job. I will leave with very, very fond memories of a wonderful career. And as such I will be one of those leaving vacancies for others.

However, there has been mention of the "55+". Those that I feel very, very sorry for are the 55 to 60 pilots, especially regional pilots (who were never the wealthiest), who are losing their jobs. By not continuing to 'full term' they have had their pension planning shattered with very little chance of getting back to recover lost ground. And if they do manage to get back into a flying job, they will be forced out again two years before they will be able to receive a State Pension (that is for UK pilots) therefore being hit by a 'double whammy'. This is unfair and for domestic work needs to change in line with some of the more enlightened, civilised countries in the world.

This present situation is going to change a lot in the industry but won't last forever. (As a personal 'show of support' for those who have lost or are losing jobs due to this present situation I will never buy anything from the place that caused all of this and I have been pleased to find that alternatives are usually quite easily available.) Good luck to all of you with your futures.
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2020, 11:34
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: not radlett
Posts: 6
Me too.

My first rule of shopping - Check the label.
radlettrejoin is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2020, 11:41
  #58 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Mecca
Posts: 34
Vaccine news is churning some top minds in some big airlines. Many of whom are seriously regretting a lot of the very real redundancy drama that has unfolded that last few weeks. Watch this space closely I say
Lucifer786 is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2020, 16:17
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 428
The real consequences will only be known in a couple of years as there will be a massive breakdown in trust and loyalty between employers and employees. Sure, those who have been left jobless will be "happy" to be rehired on half of their previous salary while things are still as bad as they are today - but, once it picks up and more opportunities appear, there will be a mass exodus of personnel from some places. Some of the things some managers did in the past 6 months simply can't be forgotten or forgiven because they lack basic human decency and professionalism. No matter how hard the situation, there's always a respectful way of handling it - but some never bothered to think of one.
PilotLZ is online now  
Old 21st Sep 2020, 07:54
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: roma
Age: 50
Posts: 110

Just out of curiosity, what’s the source of this? Are you in contact with management people in various airlines and you get an “off the record” information or you “think” that this is going to happen? No offense!
pippobaudo is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.