IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
The crisis in the airline pilot profession is causing losses of careers which those who came into before the turn of the century could never have envisaged in their worst nightmares. If you think that the attitude of everyone “higher up” is “I’m all right Jack, pull up the ladder”, please be aware that some are not. I just heard from one of the organisers of www.pilotstogether.org. They are senior pilots who have just set up a charity for pilots in ALL UK airlines.
My friend wrote “a group of us … were appalled at the way both BA and BALPA have deserted the guys at the bottom of our status list who’ve been made redundant ….. 270 people were given no redundancy money as they’d all worked less than 2 years; some of them even only got 1 months’ notice as they’d done less than 6 months. That’s just over £3000 when they have training loans of up to £100,000 to pay back to say nothing of mortgages.”
Although started in BA, it is not just a “help BA” organisation and seems to be eminently worthwhile and non-partisan. So if you are lucky enough to be one of the current or former pilots who still has a decently paid job or secure pension, please consider supporting it.
My friend wrote “a group of us … were appalled at the way both BA and BALPA have deserted the guys at the bottom of our status list who’ve been made redundant ….. 270 people were given no redundancy money as they’d all worked less than 2 years; some of them even only got 1 months’ notice as they’d done less than 6 months. That’s just over £3000 when they have training loans of up to £100,000 to pay back to say nothing of mortgages.”
Although started in BA, it is not just a “help BA” organisation and seems to be eminently worthwhile and non-partisan. So if you are lucky enough to be one of the current or former pilots who still has a decently paid job or secure pension, please consider supporting it.
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bex88
Very disingenuous.
Remember that during each pay negotiation, or change in t&c's, or any event affecting pilot numbers/recruitment or status (eg BMI integration) we have certain options which include acceptance, voting, striking etc. But it's BA who set the agenda generally.
Last year's strike clearly demonstrated that there isnt the leadership or unity to make a stand against the company, no matter the importance of the issue. Who would strike to increase whitetail starter pay? No-one! In fact we've lobbied hard to maintain entry level pay - but when pilots will work for literally nothing to get a rating and hours it's hard to convince the company to raise their pay. Equally why would the company pay for a cadet scheme when cadets will find the money themselves?
In the years 2007 to 2013 BA was really struggling (for many reasons). The BACC's strategy was to maintain the MSL and encourage recruitment.
It was assumed that pilots would still be keen to join BA as the choice was low-cost pay and/or zero hours contracts (or the ME).
Personally, I was keen to support new joiners to BA rather than prevent them from having the option to join us. BARP was sold to us without the fine print and was much poorer than promised - Balpa subsequently lobbied successfully to achieve significant improvements. pp 34 was tagged onto the vote.
The BMI and paypoint 34 vote was NOT to keep paypoint 24! It was to embrace new joiners, or have NONE.
BEX and others are clearly stating that we had a reasonable choice. WE DIDN'T! It was essentially "accept " this or nothing.
Certain BACC reps and others are doing wholesale damage to pilot relations and unity. The "New Guard" have achieved little, other than possibly reducing CR numbers.
Although my suspicion is that it was actually the "old guard" volunteers who negotiated successfully whilst the others were busy squabbling and plotting.
Very disingenuous.
Remember that during each pay negotiation, or change in t&c's, or any event affecting pilot numbers/recruitment or status (eg BMI integration) we have certain options which include acceptance, voting, striking etc. But it's BA who set the agenda generally.
Last year's strike clearly demonstrated that there isnt the leadership or unity to make a stand against the company, no matter the importance of the issue. Who would strike to increase whitetail starter pay? No-one! In fact we've lobbied hard to maintain entry level pay - but when pilots will work for literally nothing to get a rating and hours it's hard to convince the company to raise their pay. Equally why would the company pay for a cadet scheme when cadets will find the money themselves?
In the years 2007 to 2013 BA was really struggling (for many reasons). The BACC's strategy was to maintain the MSL and encourage recruitment.
It was assumed that pilots would still be keen to join BA as the choice was low-cost pay and/or zero hours contracts (or the ME).
Personally, I was keen to support new joiners to BA rather than prevent them from having the option to join us. BARP was sold to us without the fine print and was much poorer than promised - Balpa subsequently lobbied successfully to achieve significant improvements. pp 34 was tagged onto the vote.
The BMI and paypoint 34 vote was NOT to keep paypoint 24! It was to embrace new joiners, or have NONE.
BEX and others are clearly stating that we had a reasonable choice. WE DIDN'T! It was essentially "accept " this or nothing.
Certain BACC reps and others are doing wholesale damage to pilot relations and unity. The "New Guard" have achieved little, other than possibly reducing CR numbers.
Although my suspicion is that it was actually the "old guard" volunteers who negotiated successfully whilst the others were busy squabbling and plotting.
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slast
Very noble... But remember it's the gov that sets statutory redundancy pay, not Balpa, and certainly not me!
And who's paying for the CRS through a "voluntary" pay cut? the pilots! And many pilots took VR or PT to reduce the CR footprint
The notion that no-one cares is false
Very noble... But remember it's the gov that sets statutory redundancy pay, not Balpa, and certainly not me!
And who's paying for the CRS through a "voluntary" pay cut? the pilots! And many pilots took VR or PT to reduce the CR footprint
The notion that no-one cares is false
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it’s certainly been enlightening to hear from those who were not in BA at the time what the votes were about and the motives of those who voted for the options we had. It’s great to have these retro historians around to tell us what went on when they were not privy to the facts at the time and are now rewriting things to suit themselves.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 28th Aug 2020 at 06:04.
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Quite
Those unfortunate to be made CR are understandably angry/sad/ bitter but it's no excuse for pilots who joined on pp34 to stir the sh1t in this dangerously divisive way.
There was no vote to " keep" pp24.......
Whilst it would have been great to increase pay across the board, inc new joiners, that has NEVER happened in my 31 years. We are fighting an ongoing deterioration in comp and conditions. eg The cadet scheme. The company is competing against low cost and others where new pilots pay for their rating and their uniforms. And we have people here complaining that whitetails are on a slightly lower salary............... FFS get real!!!
The goal for the last 20 years has been to get them on the MSL , rather than a separate (low cost) alternative.
eg.. Short Haul LGW... those guys are on the MSL and, despite some protestations, they will be treated by MSL seniority.
The alternative was a different "airline", on lower t&c's, and they'd probably all already be unemployed.
Those unfortunate to be made CR are understandably angry/sad/ bitter but it's no excuse for pilots who joined on pp34 to stir the sh1t in this dangerously divisive way.
There was no vote to " keep" pp24.......
Whilst it would have been great to increase pay across the board, inc new joiners, that has NEVER happened in my 31 years. We are fighting an ongoing deterioration in comp and conditions. eg The cadet scheme. The company is competing against low cost and others where new pilots pay for their rating and their uniforms. And we have people here complaining that whitetails are on a slightly lower salary............... FFS get real!!!
The goal for the last 20 years has been to get them on the MSL , rather than a separate (low cost) alternative.
eg.. Short Haul LGW... those guys are on the MSL and, despite some protestations, they will be treated by MSL seniority.
The alternative was a different "airline", on lower t&c's, and they'd probably all already be unemployed.
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Incredible. History yes, not the future, it’s gone. For those that pertaining to fly aircraft with a compass, stopwatch & perhaps 4 Proteus engines they have retired long ago. 40 years ago was 1980, hardly the swashbuckling pioneers venturing out in their De-Havilland Rapide’s for a world tour.....get a grip. To honestly think your remuneration should be based on that work is a pitiful argument. Your pay is for last months work, period. Those getting it should be grateful given the plight of many.
Regarding PP34 & PP24 & any other departments that have evolved into ringfencing T’s & C’s for some, change is inevitable. When is no doubt conjuncture & guesswork. The future day will eventually arrive that allows PP34 the casting majority, when this day does arrive PP24 will be history. Looking at current events we now know there doesn’t even have to be a vote, the company can just impose the change. Covid may just yet facilitate this outcome, the result would be a large group of pilots all on the same terms and conditions. What is wrong with one team with the same skill set treated with equality? We may even have harmony and true “esprit de corps”............
Regarding PP34 & PP24 & any other departments that have evolved into ringfencing T’s & C’s for some, change is inevitable. When is no doubt conjuncture & guesswork. The future day will eventually arrive that allows PP34 the casting majority, when this day does arrive PP24 will be history. Looking at current events we now know there doesn’t even have to be a vote, the company can just impose the change. Covid may just yet facilitate this outcome, the result would be a large group of pilots all on the same terms and conditions. What is wrong with one team with the same skill set treated with equality? We may even have harmony and true “esprit de corps”............
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The Blu Riband
No one is making an issue of lower pay for new entrants and more junior pilots And it is not “slightly lower”. You point out that BA is fighting against low cost airlines and presumably accept that change is needed. Maybe the argument that a pilot on PP24 with 31 years service with a huge salary and the pick of perks are better placed to assist the company than those at the bottom of PP34. But then it has nothing to do with assisting the company, does it.
No one is making an issue of lower pay for new entrants and more junior pilots And it is not “slightly lower”. You point out that BA is fighting against low cost airlines and presumably accept that change is needed. Maybe the argument that a pilot on PP24 with 31 years service with a huge salary and the pick of perks are better placed to assist the company than those at the bottom of PP34. But then it has nothing to do with assisting the company, does it.
Last edited by FlipFlapFlop; 28th Aug 2020 at 09:40. Reason: Grammar
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You can always assess the merits of an argument when it is essentially backed with a threat! Given that your argument "give us what we want now or we will take it from you as soon as we can," rather than any logical or reasoned case, where does the delusion that once we are all on the same (lower) pay, we will enter the land of milk and honey, we will all be happy, come from?
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 28th Aug 2020 at 22:49.
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I get a paid a fair salary for a long haul captain.
The starter rates, and FO rates are also fair. You knew those when you joined and must have compared those salaries against other career options and other airlines.
Nobody forced you to join!
Your threats are a sad reflection of the type of person you are. If you're the guy who sends out the whatsapp rants then you are selfish and divisive and not at all interested in respecting your colleagues or equality................... "esprit de corps"? Nope; you're the one sh1t-stirring and making threats.
And how will you achieve these equal and fair rates of pay you so desire?
Perhaps you think BA will give you the wage pot and allow you to divide it however you see fit....... Really?? What airlines pay LH P1s the same as new joiners?
We, as a group of employees, are battling to maintain our t&c's as best we can. Change will lead inevitably to a worse position.
Or are you just jealous? You don't care what happens to the pilot body, so long as those earning more than you get hurt..........and you personally get a little more.
My guess is that you're an older DEP (maybe late 30s or 40s).
Or maybe you're ex BMI and bitter about that. The zipper must annoying!
The starter rates, and FO rates are also fair. You knew those when you joined and must have compared those salaries against other career options and other airlines.
Nobody forced you to join!
Your threats are a sad reflection of the type of person you are. If you're the guy who sends out the whatsapp rants then you are selfish and divisive and not at all interested in respecting your colleagues or equality................... "esprit de corps"? Nope; you're the one sh1t-stirring and making threats.
And how will you achieve these equal and fair rates of pay you so desire?
Perhaps you think BA will give you the wage pot and allow you to divide it however you see fit....... Really?? What airlines pay LH P1s the same as new joiners?
We, as a group of employees, are battling to maintain our t&c's as best we can. Change will lead inevitably to a worse position.
Or are you just jealous? You don't care what happens to the pilot body, so long as those earning more than you get hurt..........and you personally get a little more.
My guess is that you're an older DEP (maybe late 30s or 40s).
Or maybe you're ex BMI and bitter about that. The zipper must annoying!
BA are happy to make the argument when it suits. LGW crew costs for example are far cheaper than their competitors. PP 6-10 Captains earn up to 35k less per year than the direct competition at EZY and BA use that low cost base to beat LHR SH &c with. Yet we’re also “crazy expensive legacy”. Plus ca change...
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Simple Q. Why is any any Captain worth more than another ? If I climb out of my LHS and go to the hotel. Why should the next guy/female sitting in the same seat with the same responsibilities earn 50k + more ?
Only half a speed-brake
Outisder's view: Beacause that what the respective contracts say, or would one prefer to work for a company that does not honour the signed?
Whether or not is it possible to have a motivated, amalgamated workforce with such a wide range of contract conditions for the same work or more work, performed to the same standard or even better standards, is a different question. To which the answer is a simple flying no.
Funny that the managers and owners will claim to be absolved from this mess, saying it is what the workers agreed to and wanted / voted for through the unions. Not so funny they're actually right to a large extent, most definitely there's no way of fixing it.
Have the same shirt, different country of origin.
Whether or not is it possible to have a motivated, amalgamated workforce with such a wide range of contract conditions for the same work or more work, performed to the same standard or even better standards, is a different question. To which the answer is a simple flying no.
Funny that the managers and owners will claim to be absolved from this mess, saying it is what the workers agreed to and wanted / voted for through the unions. Not so funny they're actually right to a large extent, most definitely there's no way of fixing it.
Have the same shirt, different country of origin.
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The Moo
Surely not a serious question. Most industries have variable annual performance rises. Based on loyalty, performance, flexibility, attitude and host of other criteria. Some get a rise, some don’t. This instantly creates pay differential between same roles. Over years the differential increases. A new joiner ten years down the line should get all these rises added to the base salary should he/she ? Happens every where.
Surely not a serious question. Most industries have variable annual performance rises. Based on loyalty, performance, flexibility, attitude and host of other criteria. Some get a rise, some don’t. This instantly creates pay differential between same roles. Over years the differential increases. A new joiner ten years down the line should get all these rises added to the base salary should he/she ? Happens every where.
Last edited by FlipFlapFlop; 29th Aug 2020 at 12:11. Reason: Autocorrect corrected.
When I joined, BOAC VC10 Skip got 5000 a year. Second Officer got 1800 a year but went, purely on 6 months fixed term to First Officer on 3000 a year. Annual increments rewarded loyalty. F/O's faced an "ALTP Bar". After five years or so, no ALTP (called ATP now) you hit the bar and stayed on your salary scale for life. No long service increments Now, it was that simple. I am just wondering if, as pilots, through organized groups like Labour Party supporting Trade Unions, have we not messed this all up for ourselves. Of course BA Management have every right to laugh their socks off. Indeed, all, so-called "BALPA" company's Management knew where it would go & laughed their socks off. Non Union companies served up, often better, T&C's and there was regular movement to them from BA.
BALPA was an outlet for those with excess energy unable to enjoy a pretty good deal anyway. Here's the result.
BALPA was an outlet for those with excess energy unable to enjoy a pretty good deal anyway. Here's the result.
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The avarice of many senior and retired pilots at BA is a sad reflection of today's society in Britain. I have heard of a few 777 Captains announcing that they are paid £...,000/year, full allowances, and a pension pot well in excess of £5 million. They are still flying and have no intention of taking retirement before 65. For pity's sake! And many many retired pilots from BA, who took retirement at 55, or even earlier, are on staggeringly big pensions, well into their 70's and 80's. For these people, a proper and channelled contribution would be a decent thing to do.
Sadly, greed over-rides philanthropy. And pilots can be notably £££-driven. Fair enough, but where is empathy and even generosity?
And with the dreadful collapse of the aviation industry, now is the time for help, not greed. Aviation is not coming back, and with climate issues as well as ruined economies worldwide, it never will.
Sadly, greed over-rides philanthropy. And pilots can be notably £££-driven. Fair enough, but where is empathy and even generosity?
And with the dreadful collapse of the aviation industry, now is the time for help, not greed. Aviation is not coming back, and with climate issues as well as ruined economies worldwide, it never will.
Last edited by MissChief; 29th Aug 2020 at 10:45.
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Well round 2 will be coming around the corner shortly and there'll be a chance for more in-fighting as BA will no doubt issue another S188 very soon. Let's face it 280 CR and 300 technically redundant pilots in a pool being subsidised by others doesn't measure up to the actual crisis facing the company. Very few are flying and the money ain't coming in, BA are actually cancelling flights compared to what they planned to operate in August/September things ain't good.
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You have absolutely no justification for saying that other than you are clearly a very depressive doomster. You clearly know who are the main contributors to this thread so decide to try and spread your own particular brand of negativity for fun. Do you really think everyone is not aware of the seriousness of the current position.
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IIRC the BMI deal was about getting all pilots onto the MSL and avoid a S/H competitor operating out of LHR. That's how it was sold to us at the time.
BMI were being cast off by Lufthansa, the company from which BA derived most of it's operational back office flight planning software. Lufthansa couldn't make a profit with BMI out of LHR so I was amazed that anyone would even entertain that the silo tower management mentality of BA could make it profitable! My thoughts were outweighed by the vote so we paid BA a large sum in productivity savings to merge BMI into BA S/H. Part of the requirements for the deal from BA was for new contracts to be on 34 pay points not 24 due to the change in NRA. I'm really interested to understand where some people think nefarious deals were done? It was a take it or leave it requirement from the Company.
AFAIK there was no choice but to accept the new contract terms as 34 pay points. Much the same as the changes in pension schemes it was required by the company. Interestingly though I also seem to remember that the pension, money purchase, is STILL based on the PP24 scales thus giving a substantive boost to the defined benefit pension at the end of your career.
However it's all irrelevant as we all appeared at the top of the tree with no investment or work to achieve it so it's understandable to a tiny minority that they should ave everything we have and that we are blocking their careers by selfishly existing!
BMI were being cast off by Lufthansa, the company from which BA derived most of it's operational back office flight planning software. Lufthansa couldn't make a profit with BMI out of LHR so I was amazed that anyone would even entertain that the silo tower management mentality of BA could make it profitable! My thoughts were outweighed by the vote so we paid BA a large sum in productivity savings to merge BMI into BA S/H. Part of the requirements for the deal from BA was for new contracts to be on 34 pay points not 24 due to the change in NRA. I'm really interested to understand where some people think nefarious deals were done? It was a take it or leave it requirement from the Company.
AFAIK there was no choice but to accept the new contract terms as 34 pay points. Much the same as the changes in pension schemes it was required by the company. Interestingly though I also seem to remember that the pension, money purchase, is STILL based on the PP24 scales thus giving a substantive boost to the defined benefit pension at the end of your career.
However it's all irrelevant as we all appeared at the top of the tree with no investment or work to achieve it so it's understandable to a tiny minority that they should ave everything we have and that we are blocking their careers by selfishly existing!
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The avarice of many senior and retired pilots at BA is a sad reflection of today's society in Britain.
BA benefit from increased experience particularly with respect to insurance. Also incremental pay scales reduced dramatically pilots leaving the business thus reducing training costs and wastage.