IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,061
At the moment I'm sitting at home not having flown for 3 months and getting about 45% of what I was getting before. If company forecasts are correct, around the end of the year I would be back to about 80% of previous earnings. I consider myself lucky to still be employed with the prospect of returning to flying, many former colleagues who left for better jobs in the Middle East or China have been laid off with no return insight.
Whilst BA is in a better position than hub airlines in the ME, profitable operations are still a long way off. An interim deal will probably be needed whilst the company is haemorrhaging money, similar to British Leyland in the late 1970s. Whilst the immediate pandemic is coming to an end, the economic effects are just beginning. If my income returns to its previous level by the end of next year I'll be surprised and delighted.
Striking pilots would have very little public sympathy as their demands would be seen as totally unrealistic and unreasonable. Picketing the terminals at Heathrow holding signs demanding £130 000 a year whilst the company is losing millions a day won't get much support. Militant unions such as the miners, printers and Australian domestic pilots in 1989, have been broken before, and the Aussies were in a much stronger position when they started then BA pilots are in at the moment.
Australia is a vast country heavily dependent on air travel for domestic transportation where as BA domestic is virtually negligible. For any international BA flights, pax can simply switch to any number of competing airlines. Ansett and Australian airlines had to get pilots to move to Australia and convert their licences, where as the UK has hundreds of unemployed pilots already type rated and ready to go.
Get the best deal you can in the present circumstances and once normality returns it's time to push for a return to previous conditions or better.
Whilst BA is in a better position than hub airlines in the ME, profitable operations are still a long way off. An interim deal will probably be needed whilst the company is haemorrhaging money, similar to British Leyland in the late 1970s. Whilst the immediate pandemic is coming to an end, the economic effects are just beginning. If my income returns to its previous level by the end of next year I'll be surprised and delighted.
Striking pilots would have very little public sympathy as their demands would be seen as totally unrealistic and unreasonable. Picketing the terminals at Heathrow holding signs demanding £130 000 a year whilst the company is losing millions a day won't get much support. Militant unions such as the miners, printers and Australian domestic pilots in 1989, have been broken before, and the Aussies were in a much stronger position when they started then BA pilots are in at the moment.
Australia is a vast country heavily dependent on air travel for domestic transportation where as BA domestic is virtually negligible. For any international BA flights, pax can simply switch to any number of competing airlines. Ansett and Australian airlines had to get pilots to move to Australia and convert their licences, where as the UK has hundreds of unemployed pilots already type rated and ready to go.
Get the best deal you can in the present circumstances and once normality returns it's time to push for a return to previous conditions or better.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by judge11
' it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.'
Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.
Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shenzen
Age: 40
Posts: 327
You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.
Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:
1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.
2. No strong Pilot Unions.
If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.
Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:
1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.
2. No strong Pilot Unions.
If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,061
For those who don't watch the news, Beijing is back in lockdown due to an outbreak of COVID - 19 with hundreds of flights grounded.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cancelled.html
Any youngsters here in their 30s and 40s would do well to research the Australian Pilots dispute of 1989, those of us in our 50s and 60s remember it. Avoid having a battle with Willie Walsh at the moment, everything is in his favour and you will lose. If everyone gets sacked the union will take years to recover and re-establish itself with the new pilot body. The current times are unprecedented and sacrifices need to be made, bend a bit to avoid being broken. Stick together and when the good times return you will have a strong and established union already in place to do some hard bargaining and make up lost ground.
This is simply taking a realistic view of the situation, nothing is in the pilots favour at all at the moment.
BTW The leader of the Australian Pilots in 1989 spent the next 5 years unemployed and eventually got a co pilot job in Indonesia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cancelled.html
Any youngsters here in their 30s and 40s would do well to research the Australian Pilots dispute of 1989, those of us in our 50s and 60s remember it. Avoid having a battle with Willie Walsh at the moment, everything is in his favour and you will lose. If everyone gets sacked the union will take years to recover and re-establish itself with the new pilot body. The current times are unprecedented and sacrifices need to be made, bend a bit to avoid being broken. Stick together and when the good times return you will have a strong and established union already in place to do some hard bargaining and make up lost ground.
This is simply taking a realistic view of the situation, nothing is in the pilots favour at all at the moment.
BTW The leader of the Australian Pilots in 1989 spent the next 5 years unemployed and eventually got a co pilot job in Indonesia.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by kungfu panda
You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.
Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:
1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.
2. No strong Pilot Unions.
If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.
Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:
1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.
2. No strong Pilot Unions.
If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.
Possible BS.
1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.
2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?
How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Without wishing to join the gloom and doom brigade AFAIK this is a world wide pandemic - I wonder how many countries are going to be issuing work visas for non national pilots for the foreseeable future and in what sort of numbers?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,266
Originally Posted by 777JRM
1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.
But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.
Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Time Traveller
I'm guessing at £84,456 for all.
The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."
The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 2,904
...the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,266
Originally Posted by TURIN
Air Passenger Duty may well be revoked to help kick start the industry.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shenzen
Age: 40
Posts: 327
Originally Posted by 777JRM
Possible BS.
1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.
2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?
How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):
1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.
2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?
How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Jet II
But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.
Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.
Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.
True, lots of unemployment on the cards, but positive news out of Oxford again, this time a steroid treatment against Covid seems to be yielding good results.
Will we lockdown every time Covid reappears?
Maybe the 99.5% healthy people who get mild/no symptoms have had enough?
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 71
Sometimes I wonder why I bother coming on here... some posts are quite frankly total tosh. This is a 'professional' pilots forum- I am fairly sure some on this forum have about as much knowledge of aviation and commercial flight crew as my golden lab.
N4790P
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 70
Posts: 2,079
Originally Posted by Jet II
But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.
Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.
Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.
They have announced NO staff cut backs for foreseeable future just last week.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,061
https://www.thaienquirer.com/14392/t...risis-in-2020/
Thai Airways International
Thai Airways is due in Bankruptcy court on August 17.
The company is trying to keep its assets from being seized by creditors.
The company says that it cannot refund tickets and has grounded its planes since the end of March.
The company says it will likely have to let go of a significant portion of its workforce.
The government has appointed more government officials to try and make the state-owned enterprise more privately owned.
The company is a mess.
Thai Airways is due in Bankruptcy court on August 17.
The company is trying to keep its assets from being seized by creditors.
The company says that it cannot refund tickets and has grounded its planes since the end of March.
The company says it will likely have to let go of a significant portion of its workforce.
The government has appointed more government officials to try and make the state-owned enterprise more privately owned.
The company is a mess.
N4790P
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 70
Posts: 2,079
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...s-safe-for-now
Extract from above 13th June report
The management of Thai Airways International (THAI) insists job terminations are not in the pipeline for at least a year even though downsizing the fleet and cutting routes are part of its six-point strategy to turn the business around.
The assurance was given by acting THAI president, Chakkrit Parapuntakul, to airline staff on Thursday during a meeting to clarify the debt-rehabilitation process after the Central Bankruptcy Court agreed to examine its rehabilitation plan in August.
Extract from above 13th June report
The management of Thai Airways International (THAI) insists job terminations are not in the pipeline for at least a year even though downsizing the fleet and cutting routes are part of its six-point strategy to turn the business around.
The assurance was given by acting THAI president, Chakkrit Parapuntakul, to airline staff on Thursday during a meeting to clarify the debt-rehabilitation process after the Central Bankruptcy Court agreed to examine its rehabilitation plan in August.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 26
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airwa...rsed-pay-cuts/
Qatar Airways, like many airlines, has struggled to stay afloat during the current pandemic. This has forced it to introduce pay cuts and make several redundancies. Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker offered hope to the carrier’s employees this week when he said that the pay cuts will be reversed once flying demand returns.
Job priority to be given to laid-off staff
It is funny how we've come to a world where a ME airline tries to protect its employees (with no unions to negotiate) rather than a British airline with a multitude of unions and government officials getting nowhere. Are we really living in the correct region?
Food for thought
Qatar Airways, like many airlines, has struggled to stay afloat during the current pandemic. This has forced it to introduce pay cuts and make several redundancies. Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker offered hope to the carrier’s employees this week when he said that the pay cuts will be reversed once flying demand returns.
Job priority to be given to laid-off staff
It is funny how we've come to a world where a ME airline tries to protect its employees (with no unions to negotiate) rather than a British airline with a multitude of unions and government officials getting nowhere. Are we really living in the correct region?
Food for thought
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 2,904
There is a rumour going around that BA Pilots have been offered an enhanced VR package. It is also rumoured that all staff are to be offered a similarly enhanced VR deal in an email.
Can anyone here confirm this?
Can anyone here confirm this?
