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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:09
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
When I did a course at Boeing, Seattle, I was told that in Pan Am, which was still alive then, it wasn't unknown for a senior first officer, based in Hawaii, bidding continually for either Pan Am 1 or Pan Am 2, both round the world flights, (one east bound and the other west bound), turn down the opportunity of a command as that would have been on a New York based 727, which didn't appeal!
That still goes on in other Majors. Plenty of career copilots knocking around the trade. To be fair, there are freezes in pay and salary rises after a certain number of years.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 11:09
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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If it comes to lifestyle vs money, most pilots I know (been in the industry a couple of years mostly longhaul) will chose lifestyle over money every single opportunity. I donít know a single pilot in my company that either isnít on the part time waiting list or seriously considering it.

so people deciding to be ďcareerĒ FOís isnít that surprising in my book.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 11:45
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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750 hours a year and no profit not looking too smart now.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 12:01
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I dont see the strict relation between hours flown and profitability.
I havenít flown more than 650 hours in the last many years, and the same most of my full time collegues, yet the company has been profitable every single year, including 2009 and 2001.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 12:31
  #105 (permalink)  
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Is experience not roughly defined as total hours?
If Pilot A has more hours than Pilot B, he's more experienced, right?

This measure being adjustable for other helpful ratings such as TRI, TRE etc, and to an extent by command hours.

With the argument further up the thread regarding pilots being required to do identical jobs with identical performance in mind, and thus given that there are no variables, surely experience (and therefore seniority) can be mathematically calculated by formula?

Something like (thumbsuck here)

Experience = TT + (PIC/3) + (TRE*1000)

results of formula then defining where in new airline applicant fits in. If it's DEC above existing FO, then FO accepts DEC is more experienced. If it's FO below more experienced FO's, applicant accepts the existing FO's are more experienced.

If applied globally, would be a fair system.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 12:39
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
750 hours a year and no profit not looking too smart now.
If 900hr, min rest rosters are the only way to make a profit then we might as well all pack up now
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 13:02
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AfricanSkies View Post
Is experience not roughly defined as total hours?
If Pilot A has more hours than Pilot B, he's more experienced, right?

This measure being adjustable for other helpful ratings such as TRI, TRE etc, and to an extent by command hours.

With the argument further up the thread regarding pilots being required to do identical jobs with identical performance in mind, and thus given that there are no variables, surely experience (and therefore seniority) can be mathematically calculated by formula?

Something like (thumbsuck here)

Experience = TT + (PIC/3) + (TRE*1000)

results of formula then defining where in new airline applicant fits in. If it's DEC above existing FO, then FO accepts DEC is more experienced. If it's FO below more experienced FO's, applicant accepts the existing FO's are more experienced.

If applied globally, would be a fair system.
BS! TT is mostly irrelevant. Flying long haul you do more hours then ever before but stick time? What stick time? Military hours / Cargo mostly fly much less hours but to black hole destinations in the middle of nowhere with non precision approaches to the minima. ILS2ILS 900 hours says nothing. Same as TRI/TRE experience. Anyone can do that at CAE if they want low pay.

Just accept one company uses seniority while the other donít.

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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 14:43
  #108 (permalink)  
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We're talking about airlines here, not military. Ace stick time isn't part of the requirement. Varied long haul time is valuable in gaining situational (geographic, ATC, terrain, alternate etc) awareness. By this stage, we should all be able to do a NPA.

More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 17:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AfricanSkies View Post
We're talking about airlines here, not military. Ace stick time isn't part of the requirement. Varied long haul time is valuable in gaining situational (geographic, ATC, terrain, alternate etc) awareness. By this stage, we should all be able to do a NPA.

More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
whatever. It will not happen anyway.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 22:02
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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More hours...more experienced..is the general rule
1) Not all experience is created equal.

2) Not all experience is relevant to a particular operation.

Beyond about 3000-5000hrs, total experience is pretty irrelevant and the the following question is usually 'doing what?' The correct answer to that lies in the needs of that employer.

What is the big problem with company seniority that the anti camp think needs fixing after all this time?
Is it simply that you are prevented from job hopping, or are you genuinely of the opinion 'I bring more talent than an upgraded FO'?

Every company seniority system has its differences, but the one thing they typically always have in common is that they give eligible FOs a shot at command before hiring DECs, hence the angle of my question.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 22:19
  #111 (permalink)  
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Hi Lapon. Agreed about the type of experience. As this discussion concerns airlines, it's airline experience.

Valid points have been raised above. The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots. Not only changing jobs for reasons such as geographic relocation but for better terms and conditions, which in turn forces the airlines to up their game in that regard.

Having key staff effectively stuck in an airline due to high seniority or simply by the prospect of losing a command if you change jobs is a HR managers dream.

HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs.

If seniority was global, and derived from experience, the system would still serve its function, but by enabling free movement it would not hobble those it seeks to serve.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 23:59
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Don't even contemplate going down that path of no seniority list. I spent 5 years with a reasonably large airline (100+ aircraft) without a seniority list and you have never experienced the unsightly in-fighting and backstabbing trying to get a promotion ahead of others. So much was put on who you knew, your friendship/relationship with them and how deep you were prepared to stab the knife into your possible rivals back.
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 00:20
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots
As mentioned it is a zero sum game. An advantage for one pilot is at the disadvantage of the next.

Seniority is a pilot initiative not an HR one.
If HR had thier way it would be yes men that get ahead, and the crusaders that have often fought for improvements to your conditions and causes would wither on the vine.

[QUOTE] HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs [QUOTE]

Exaclty why seniority serves to protect those FOs that we once were ourselves.

Last edited by Lapon; 4th Apr 2020 at 00:30.
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 06:45
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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the majority of airlines nowadays do not have seniority systems in place. So job hopping / moving for better T&Cís is already possible. So by your reasoning those airlines should have better t&cís then the seniority based ones...
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 07:05
  #115 (permalink)  

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S.G., do you think it is the seniority / unions laying the foundations for high wages?
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 07:12
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
S.G., do you think it is the seniority / unions laying the foundations for high wages?
The companies that have strong unions generally have seniority systems and better T&Cís.
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Old 4th Apr 2020, 22:41
  #117 (permalink)  

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Neatly avoided.
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 20:48
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Right now, where are the 'high wages'?
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 23:00
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Right now, where are the 'high wages'?
Depends on your definition of 'high wages', I prefer the term 'better T&Cs'. Of course there is always going to be an exception to the rule lying somewhere but in my part of the world it holds true.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 03:33
  #120 (permalink)  
CCA
 
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Several post here argue the rules used in a current seniority based airline and apply those same rules to a non seniority based airline.

You can't, you have to use real world jobs that have established systems without seniority.

Pick any job that has a designated senior person in a dual or more role job. I guess an easy example would be a surgeon.

Surgeons would move around freely yet it doesn't mean junior surgeons never become senior does it? They through experience become senior. Saying an FO would never become a captain is simply not true because of so called leap frogging.

Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command. Perhaps a course or some means would be used to show the surgeon or pilot has reached a level to lead the operation or perhaps the offer is given to be acting senior pilot several times. The more experience you have the more times you will be designated senior pilot.

The new surgeon/pilot to the hospital/company probably has a bedding in period before being set free too, perhaps they must fly to certain destinations prior to being approved to be designated senior pilot etc

The rest of the world functions perfectly well without seniority it's just a different system with different rules and we would need different rules and systems. Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.

20+ years - seniority based airline but I'm still with Ernest K. Gann when it comes to seniority.


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