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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

Old 31st Mar 2020, 10:54
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I'm familiar with that case, and though the ruling went against RR, it did find that it would be necessary to include other performance factors beyond 5 years (but seniority can still be in there >5yrs), and that there must be a demonstrable business need (which couldn't necessarily be read across to other claims).

Reed Smith comment on the case "Employers should still be very wary about using criteria such as ďfirst-in, last-outĒ, or other criteria which make length of service determinative of the selection, as use of length of service in this way may not be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. The case is therefore not authority for a general proposition that length of service is invariably going to be a lawful criterion for redundancy selection, in the context of age discrimination."
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 10:57
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I was speaking with a Balpa rep not long time ago and in the main offices they are terrified that someone one day will challenge the seniority system is certain airlines, because they know the chances are high it would not hold up in court.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:06
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Flybe when financially stressed in 2013 went for redundancies by fleet and by seat (also by base) with a matrix system where seniority was the dominant (but not overarching) factor. This was because they were told by lawyers that pure LIFO was ďlegally unsafeĒ (to use their words). I would suggest that the more important point for them was that this also allowed them to minimise their retraining bill. I have absolutely no doubt that this is how any European airline with multiple fleets and bases is going to play it and why, as a Gatwick pilot at BA, Iím absolutely crapping it right now.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Not delusional, it has been tested and slightly modified to address the m/f imbalance that still exists. Still legal in the UK last I looked.

The benefit is for the pilots not the airline. That's the point.
I'm not fully up to speed on the law surrounding this, but lets assume you are correct and it is legal.

The reality is that, as you state, it benefits the pilots; in that it will cost the airline money. When they naturally do the opposite, whats our reponse? Do we really expect junior collegues to join strike action to have themselves made redundant?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I prefer the seniority based system where things are done on merit and not on things you might have achieved elsewhere.
Assuming that the "merit" you possess is being time served and not your experience, ability and suitability
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:12
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
I was speaking with a Balpa rep not long time ago and in the main offices they are terrified that someone one day will challenge the seniority system is certain airlines, because they know the chances are high it would not hold up in court.
And they have been afraid of it for a long time. Rumour has it (because I wasn’t personally involved) that when Bmi baby made people redundant in 2008 ignoring the seniority list and the terms of the contract that all the pilots had signed Balpa refused to give legal aid to anyone wanting to challenge the company after the redundancies because they didn’t think they would win, and losing would set a precedent.

Under UK employment law it is a position which has to be no longer necessary. Let’s say, for example, that a Big airline wanted to shut its operation at airport G. It couldn’t make junior pilots at Airport H redundant and put more senior pilots from airport G into those positions as that would be against UK law. The only people it could make redundant would be the pilots at airport G whose positions no longer existed.

By all means (in the UK) have your seniority list for fleet changes, base changes, upgrades, training appointments etc etc but don’t expect seniority alone to protect you against redundancy. This is in the UK, and irrelevant to the USA, Europe, Australia or anywhere else.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:15
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Canít posters in this thread also include in their post if they are currently employed by a seniority based airline?

i canít help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who arenít and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it?

To kick off; I do work for a seniority based airline.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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It is relevant in most legislations I am aware of.
In my European country when you are talking redundancies there are three factors that need to be considered:

- family situation (having dependants put you in a better position, for obvious reasons)
- seniority
- company organizational needs (training, bases, roles, etc)

In no specific order.
There is room to negotiate with the unions, if present, but the law clearly state the criterias that have to be considered.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
Can’t posters in this thread also include in their post if they are currently employed by a seniority based airline?

i can’t help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who aren’t and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it?

To kick off; I do work for a seniority based airline.
Seniority based airline.

I'm not posting an arguement for or against; but questioning whether peoples faith in it with relation to redundancies is misplaced.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
i canít help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who arenít and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it
So the binary world you live does not include the odd chance that somebody honestly doesn't believe in seniority based systems?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by excrab View Post
And they have been afraid of it for a long time. Rumour has it (because I wasnít personally involved) that when Bmi baby made people redundant in 2008 ignoring the seniority list and the terms of the contract that all the pilots had signed Balpa refused to give legal aid to anyone wanting to challenge the company after the redundancies because they didnít think they would win, and losing would set a precedent.

Under UK employment law it is a position which has to be no longer necessary. Letís say, for example, that a Big airline wanted to shut its operation at airport G. It couldnít make junior pilots at Airport H redundant and put more senior pilots from airport G into those positions as that would be against UK law. The only people it could make redundant would be the pilots at airport G whose positions no longer existed.

By all means (in the UK) have your seniority list for fleet changes, base changes, upgrades, training appointments etc etc but donít expect seniority alone to protect you against redundancy. This is in the UK, and irrelevant to the USA, Europe, Australia or anywhere else.
bmi was slightly different in that baby was a wholly owned subsidiary of bmi. It was deemed perfectly legal (but morally questionable imo) to make pilots redundant from baby that had many more years service than their peers in mainline.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:55
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clvf88 View Post
Do we really expect junior collegues to join strike action to have themselves made redundant?
- as balpa discovered at an airline where they had introduced a seniority list - nice base and holiday advantages to the senior pilots (including the relatively senior CC reps as it happens!), but then they discovered that support was decidedly luke warm from those who had been disadvantaged, when it came to going on strike!
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 11:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by de fumo in flammam View Post
- as balpa discovered at an airline where they had introduced a seniority list - nice base and holiday advantages to the senior pilots (including the relatively senior CC reps as it happens!), but then they discovered that support was decidedly luke warm from those who had been disadvantaged, when it came to going on strike!
which airline and base was this? Which strike?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:04
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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The golden harp
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:07
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
bmi was slightly different in that baby was a wholly owned subsidiary of bmi. It was deemed perfectly legal (but morally questionable imo) to make pilots redundant from baby that had many more years service than their peers in mainline.
True, but the redundancies in 2008 were about Bmi baby management ignoring the seniority list and making redundancies by seat and base within Bmi baby. Nothing to do with Bmi mainline.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 13:18
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Seniority and 'final salary' pension schemes have always been the 'shackle' that have solidly bolted many pilots into airlines -- to the absolute delight of management!

Final salary pension schemes are one by one being shown to have feet of clay.

Seniority list should go the same way. Present circumstances should speed that up.

Two decades ago I was is one of the UK's major airlines, with a final salary pension scheme and half way up the seniority list. I left for a better lifestyle with those two factors being the most difficult decisions to break from. That airline no longer exists. My final salary pension savings are OK, but underfunded. The airline that I went to had a seniority list and a final salary pension scheme. After a few years there, and massive upheavals in the airline industry, I left again with lifestyle being the deciding factor. That airline no longer exists and the state of the final salary pension scheme has been the subject of articles in business sections of national newspapers (fortunately I did not have many years there). The airline that I next went to had no seniority list nor any pension scheme. I set up my own pension saving (and it has grown well, with only minimal decline over the past few months). The next airline that I joined (again for lifestyle) had a seniority list but final salary pension schemes were then 'out of fashion'. That airline no longer exists. Since then I have worked for two more airlines, one with no seniority system and the present one, well, I don't know, it doesn't bother me any more so I don't pay attention to that as I now have the best lifestyle that I have ever enjoyed in my airline career and the best job security. (As I have saved well more than normal for pensions for a long time, even the current upheavals have not been too bad and I am so thankful that I do not depend heavily on any final salary pensions.)

So, summing up: If I had gone by the mantra that "Seniority Is Everything", I would not be where I am now in a secure job with the best airline lifestyle that I've ever had. I am so glad that I broke from those shackles over two decades ago.

But let's look at this an entirely different way: We have many hundreds of pilots right now who have found their seniority counted for absolutely nothing. If they are employed by 'seniority based' airlines all their experience and expertise counts for nowt and they go to the bottom of the pile. Would I want our medical profession to be like that where a doctor moving from one Trust, District or whatever, has to go to the bottom of the pile and have his talents and experience count for nowt? If I need to see a 'senior' doctor it cannot be that one with that wealth of experience but has to be one who has simply 'been there longer'? What a horrible thought.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 14:48
  #37 (permalink)  
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]Earnest K. Gann has been mentioned.
Maybe wrong but I thought E.K. Gann expressed his opinion of seniority systems AFTER he became Number One at AA?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 15:14
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
]Earnest K. Gann has been mentioned.
Maybe wrong but I thought E.K. Gann expressed his opinion of seniority systems AFTER he became Number One at AA?
Wrong.

It comes up constantly through "Fate is the Hunter" as being illogical. At the end of it when he flew with a co-pilot who was far more experienced than he was but was only in that seat because his airline had gone bust, Gann decided it was time to get out of the industry. (For those of us who enjoy reading, that was a good move.)

Where did you get the idea that Gann was Number One at AA?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 15:23
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Seniority has no place in the modern work force anymore and its right that it be scrapped around the world. All positions should be purely merit based regardless of DOJ, sex, gender, race etc.....Make ti so pilots can move easily around the world without fear. Seniority benefits companies far more than it benefits the pilots, time to get rid of it.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 15:29
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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And out of curiosity how do you demonstrate merit as a pilot? Number of diversions? Fuel efficiency? Days off flown? On time performance?
See my point? Not a huge fan of seniority myself but I can see how "merit" can be measured from the management side and I am not sure I like it.
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