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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

Old 6th Apr 2020, 05:18
  #121 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.
But how many specialised jobs types are there in the world where hundreds if not thousands of people are employed by one of a small number of companies doing a nearly indential job?

I would speculate there are more transport category jet pilots than orthopedic surgeons for example.
There are more probably more accountants than pilots, but there are equally more accountancy firms than airlines.
If there was a transparent way to job hop then sure, but as non-seniorty appointments (TREs etc) prove, its wishful thinking that it will be entirely merit based.

Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command
The problem is that command is where the money is, and I for one have no interest in taking additional responsibility for the operation if there is no additional compensation... and I doubt the airlines will put everyone through a command course to merely designate day by day who is senior pilot / pilot.

I dont doubt airlines would continue to operate perfectly fine without seniority, but what a pain in the a#$% it would be as a pilot trying to navigate your way to career-life balance as the invisible goal posts change (speaking from a non seniority experience).

Last edited by Lapon; 6th Apr 2020 at 05:49.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 06:30
  #122 (permalink)  
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Again. I really donít see the purpose of the discussion. There are hundreds of companies that do not have a seniority system. You can apply there if you donít fancy seniority.

besides that I think it is extremely selfish to, now that you experience a crisis, think you could jump the que whereas there are plenty of guys / girls (myself included) who have been made redundant before and accepted to start at the bottom again. We have a few Thomas Cook guys who just did that...
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 07:07
  #123 (permalink)  
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You are completely correct in that there are plenty of non seniority companies for the anti camp to work in.

I suspect the seniority based ones are typically the more desirable too for reasons unique to each individual.

As SG says, it's rather selfish to suggest another system is flawed because you cannot join it without penatly, regardless of your reasons for wanting to do so.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 08:23
  #124 (permalink)  
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Will you airline pilots be desperately trying to join a cargo airline or bizjet company now? Just to have a flying job or will you change careers? Interesting previous history on applications
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 08:31
  #125 (permalink)  
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I would take cargo over airlines any day, having done years of airline flying I can truly say Im over it and have no desire to go back. Having a family to support though means I would go back for their sake if I had no choice and a good opportunity arose.

All being equal though I would take cargo if given the choice.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 10:13
  #126 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 3RDi View Post
Will you airline pilots be desperately trying to join a cargo airline or bizjet company now? Just to have a flying job or will you change careers? Interesting previous history on applications
No I'm not, I dont hold the pax airlines on a pedestal but they do suit my lifestyle. I would sooner persue the biz or cargo scene before changing career however. In the theme of the thread I would expect to start at the bottom of course.

Last edited by Lapon; 7th Apr 2020 at 01:43.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 13:44
  #127 (permalink)  
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A point of pointless pedantry. If you fly cargo, you work for an airline as much as if you fly pax.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 15:48
  #128 (permalink)  
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My last airline was a cargo airline. I was there for 19 years and although it had its moments, it was an excellent job. We always did particularly well when the world was in crisis and it was so refreshingly hassle-free after many years of flying punters.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 18:08
  #129 (permalink)  
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Quite confident most crew that brought value to their company will have a job to go back to. Hope you score well on your evaluations. If not, all the best competing with cargo drivers. Trying your luck in business aviation is going to be difficult as you won’t be made captain should you be fortunate to be considered in the first place. If unless you have experience in this sector. It’s well known airline men/women don’t prefer bizjets and are not considered.

What alternative careers would you consider? Someone mentioned becoming a surgeon, for example
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 01:49
  #130 (permalink)  
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Alternative careers would generally involve going to back to a previous line of work (aviation was a career change for me many years ago anyway), or persue a new interest if the the immediacy of a paycheck was not important.
Talking to most now redundant pilots I know (airline-pax) they intent to get back into it when things pick up in the months or years ahead. The only variation is what they will spend that time doing, and that is a function of thier own financial security at this moment in time.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 20:29
  #131 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post
Is that ridiculous reply because you havenít got an answer to the question? Iíll ask again for them, why donít you tell us how would you decide? Quality of receipt photos when claiming expenses? Length of PAs given? Tightness of tie knot?
I have so many answers to your stupid statement in these very trying times ...!
i will start with priorities of a situation , and end with the tightness of YOUR knot,
there she blows is online now  
Old 15th Apr 2020, 08:02
  #132 (permalink)  
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Worth having a read of the various Wizz threads to see what life is like when the axe swings in an airline where you have no Seniority List and no Union to represent you. And it ain't over yet.
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Old 10th May 2020, 15:03
  #133 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: USA/England
Posts: 10
I spent most of my airline career on reserve due to the position of hitting a hiring freeze first right after hire as FO, then shortly after upgrade to Captain. It was my experience that having seniority decide every single decision caused a vast disparity in lifestyle between top seniority pilots, who had 20 days off a month, and people who were stuck 2-leg commuting to reserve to outstation bases.

It created an unhealthy competitive atmosphere where every pilot was willing to step on someone else's situation hard in order to make theirs even a tiny amount better. I applied for Netjets after hearing from friends there who seemed much better treated. From what I understood, their system was much more balanced, as most pilots were on the same 7 days on, 7 days off system, but preferential schedule only shifted the days. That would have prevented ridiculous situations like mine, where I worked every weekend and holiday.

Pilots at Netjets were also provided revenue tickets to their bases, given they lived within a certain distance from a major airport. I felt this was a much better way to treat pilots than my airline, which displaced pilots after closing a base, but forced you to fend for yourself with nonrevenue flying.

After being in the corporate non-flying world for nearly as long as I was in flying (10 years flying, 9 corporate), no system is perfect, but the industry seems to be the prime driver of quality of life, followed by company culture. If you can find both of those, even a seniority system won't put you at a disadvantage if everyone is treated well.
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Old 11th May 2020, 05:16
  #134 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Worth having a read of the various Wizz threads to see what life is like when the axe swings in an airline where you have no Seniority List and no Union to represent you. And it ain't over yet.
Worth trying to understand what it actually says there, albeit admittedly the popcorn is in the micro to see how seniority and LIFO are going to work for BA. History, forget, repeat.
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:35
  #135 (permalink)  
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And Norwegian.....Send us your CV via facebook so we can keep in touch when and if we rehire on new and exciting industry leading T&Cs.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 20:02
  #136 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'. All with seniority systems. How was job security with them?

Earnest Gann has been mentioned. He got out of the airline industry when he saw, as a senior pilot in his airline how unfair the system was on people, not on their own choices or decisions but entirely on the decisions of those in management or the quirks of business at the time.
actually... he didnít like that he was junior, so he left and went to the airlift command. And after the war when he returned, he didnít like his number and so he left to a new upstart to become its number 2 pilot. When that failed he went to another upstart and at the bottom complained that heís in the right seat.

in each of those cases there were pilots who spent years building the airline and their seniority. How right is it to try and bypass that system and cut in line?

At the point that youíre safe and professional, the difference in piloting skills become less important. Do you want an airline that promotes the guy/gal with no kids and is willing to work work work? Or that chooses to furlough or make redundant the pilot with expensive health issues and too many sick calls? Look at EK and youíll see professionals mid career with kids in college being let go because they cost more.

Gann tried to sharp shoot the system and he finally left flying. He could have stayed and his seniority would have been just fine. Yes, there is always the risk of a defunct airline or a bad merger. Iím on airline number 6.

sorry to revive this, but I just reread ďFate is the Hunter.Ē

Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 8th Aug 2020 at 20:18.
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Old 17th Aug 2020, 16:14
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
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The only guys against seniorty lists are the ones working for a non seniority list company. Guys that don't want to wait for their turn and sell them selves to the lowest... "just for my upgrade. I don't mind getting a SO pay check flying on the left seat, build my hours and then try a DEC on a Major..." But, ups, wana come to a Major, get in line mister. They were not the only ones with experience. Some TRI/TRE License holders have less experience and skills then most of the SFO on the Major. But they still say they have right of way...
There are people that even pay to fly.
And now, on the biggest colapse of our industry, some work for free. They call them selves the smart guys... "at least I keep my self current..." no wonder big companies are now working on fully automated birds. I wouldn't thrust my name in such a low characters who call them Selves Pilots.
Once and for all, Airlines need Pilots.
Are we too many?
From the first day somebody payed for the type rating we were "one too much".
Remember? At start pay the TR, then the MCC, then if you pay the TR I let you work 500 hour (for free of course), then 1000, now something about upset ?!?!?!?!
We all failed. We did this to our selves. COVID just showed us how much. We are a group of individuals. Nothing more than that.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 20:31
  #138 (permalink)  
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Itís always been this way . Rapidly expanding / places with less applicants have always hired DEC .

Legacy hasnít . I think seniority is fair in so much as everyone should get a shot at promotion eventually - even if people outside the airlines canít understand the lack of transferability for captains
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Old 21st Aug 2020, 16:48
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2017
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Sounds like the airline pilots that have been made redundant becoming FI’s just to keep their hand in flying until things get back to normal. Pay isn’t important to them (it’s in black and white above) but more than happy to sell themselves short just to fly something. Yes, I have spoken face to face with enough interested airline guys that haven’t ever considered become an FI ordinarily.
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Old 21st Aug 2020, 20:36
  #140 (permalink)  
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Working for seniority based airline.

Ernest K. Gann wrote that seniority implied the ostrich-like philosophy that one man can fly as well as another but that the system must remain forever, if only to protect the weak (actual wording may be a bit different, as this is re-translated from German).

I'd paraphrase Churchill, seniority may be the worst system, except for other systems that have been tried from time to time. Merit-based systems may look objective on paper but there's always some leeway for those who hand out the merit points. There is no yardstick to objectively measure who's the best pilot and there are too many variables in daily ops to use operational data to determine who's better. I dare say we are barely able to find out who's good enough.

There is a drawback to seniority if your carrier goes bust. That could but is unlikely to actually be fixed by seniority systems spanning multiple carriers. US ALPA studied that in the past but never came to an agreement to actually implement it.
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