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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

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seniority lists discussion..... Again!

Old 1st Apr 2020, 02:10
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: this side of the moon
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
Would one of you anti seniority ladies or gentlemen please, tell me the ďfairĒ and transparent criteria you would use to measure ďmeritĒ for promotion, leave, pay etc.
How would your criteria for example, measure where on their present list of pilots, you would slot in, if you move into a new company?
where would YOU, in the current climate ask the Coronavirus to SLOT IN,
im a thinking you are from the dinosaur group, top doggie, now de funked group.
The very top of the covid 19 list.
Pretty intimidating for now
there she blows is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 08:44
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 54
I have been made redundant...
I had to start all over again...
I had to relocate...
I had to take the pay cut...
I have been in your shoes...
Then to join a seniority based airline I had to to most of the above again...
Life is 60 percent choice and 40 percent luck...

Life is not fair....
SaulGoodman is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:12
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by clvf88 View Post
I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?
Would it be fair if this person would join another carrier as captain and while doing so "steal" money from f/o's whose upgrade will be delayed by these direct entry captains?
747-8driver is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:33
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by there she blows View Post
where would YOU, in the current climate ask the Coronavirus to SLOT IN,
im a thinking you are from the dinosaur group, top doggie, now de funked group.
The very top of the covid 19 list.
Pretty intimidating for now
Is that ridiculous reply because you havenít got an answer to the question? Iíll ask again for them, why donít you tell us how would you decide? Quality of receipt photos when claiming expenses? Length of PAs given? Tightness of tie knot?
VariablePitchP is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:48
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by 747-8driver View Post
Would it be fair if this person would join another carrier as captain and while doing so "steal" money from f/o's whose upgrade will be delayed by these direct entry captains?
Just being devils advocate; but its only stealing if one buys into the idea of seniority. Is it not more reasonable that the airline will look at their own internal upgrade candidates, and direct entry captains available at that point in time, and decide who is best suited / qualified for the role? This is how recruitment is done in most other professions - and everyones time will still come. It will also mean a more 'liquid' pilot group, which can only be good for terms and conditions.

I think this idea of fairness may also be a red herring. Surely whats important is not fairness, but whats most optimal for the airline / industry / employees. I think there would be a strong case there to argue that this would be a system where the most experienced pilots are placed in the most 'senior' positions.
clvf88 is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:10
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 156
Valid points, but every other industry has ways to assess and rank employees. Take a banker, how much did they make this year? Checkout worker, speed of checkouting. Police officer, quality of case write ups.

Pilots crash, or they don’t. How else do you assess them? Meritocracies can’t work when the only differentiator is what squadron mug you’ve got hanging up at home, which is the sort of selection that a flat system would (and does) predicate.
VariablePitchP is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:14
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Cut to the chase......seniority. Everyone is talking about redundancy and who should take the hit.

Firstly there needs to be a legal matrix. It can be weighted towards seniority but not exclusively. Geographic cannot be challenged and it is the role that is redundant, not the person. Legally you can’t make a pilot redundant and then transfer another pilot into their role. Well certainly not without a challenge.

What can we do? Argue, point fingers, throw our colleagues under the bus? Maybe it would be better to try and protect everyone career. That is not the same as their income or job. Exhaust all part time working, unpaid leave, job sharing, voluntary redundancies or early retirements (with a incentive package, not just booting people out with < 5 years to go) If that is not enough then it’s on to redundancies. Redundancies come with a financial package. That is all well and good but what I would want to see is protection of these pilots careers. Measures should be built in that these pilots can return to their company on their original seniority and position as and when conditions allow.

I am concerned for my job but I am more concerned for my career. If ever we need to stick together it is now.

Seniority sucks, but I cannot think of a better system for fleets moves, promotion etc. You earn your chance for those, you then have to demonstrate you are capable.
bex88 is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 12:05
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 303
I worked for an airline that went from a seniority, promote from within culture to a “merit” and “experience” based system with a heavy focus on direct entry Captains. It wasn’t pretty and the people it often attracted were :-

​​- those who had been sacked from previous airlines for safety reasons, but rated and available now
- friends of managers from inside the airline
- friends of managers from outside the airline
- individuals that had lied about experience, qualifications and even one with a criminal conviction for perjury
- other airlines non-upgradable FO’s with bags of hours and a chain of failed upgrade attempts. These were made DEC’s or continued to fail upgrades

There were good guys too, but overall it was unsafe. I had been a Captain for that airline in the past but was demoted on moving from the turboprop to the jet. I just watched scary pilots appearing out of nowhere, whilst not getting a look in myself. Many long serving pilots left the airline to go elsewhere, to the bottom of a seniority list, like I did. My previous airline is now left with many pilots who will need constant management and will always be risky.

Seniority does ensure that the airline has to provide good training, give structure to careers and the airline has a chance to see the pilot performing well, prior to upgrade.
Fair_Weather_Flyer is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:03
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: London
Posts: 83
When I board a legacy carrier's aircraft, I worry about the occupant of the left seat. I worry he's there because his number came up and he scraped through, or had 'friends'. None of them are there solely because they're able.

I'm with Ernest Gann (and there's no better company to be in).

Seniority has ruined this profession. Meritocracy, in a properly run airline, is the way to go. There are crap outfits, like the one fair weather flyer refers to, of course, but every sphere of business has its dross.
Kit Sanbumps KG is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:20
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 427
Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
...

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.
Unless they also go the way of
TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'
You never know in this industry. I bet the pilots in those airlines never knew too, until it was too late.

What is it with "Legacy airline" guys that they think they are so 'special'? When their airline goes bust (and see above, they are not immune), they are just the same as anyone else.
Trossie is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:29
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 169
Kit Sanbumps KG

In all airlines whether seniority based or otherwise you have to pass the command to get that left seat. My first airline did not have a seniority list. There were captains who were contractors who had no right to be sat in an aircraft let alone the left hand seat. There were captains who were in the right squadron so therefore “good eggs” or brownnosers who were absolute disasters to fly with and there were FO’s who because they had pissed off a certain senior manager would never even get in front of a command board.

I’m now relatively speaking junior in a seniority based airline with the best T’s and C’s of my career and everyone knows where they stand. I wouldn’t change a thing.
back to Boeing is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:43
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 52
Posts: 201
clvf88

Of course it is stealing the F/O's position. When comparing your two candidates for the role, what criteria are you going to use? Hours?PIC Time? Psyco tests? If an airlines' internal candidates with thousands of hours on type, within the operation does not trump a guy from outside it would be a serious indictment of that airline's recruiting, training and pilot development models. The only reason to take a DEC is when you do not have any suitably qualified F/O's

Furthermore, where would any F/O ever get his upgrade from. Airlines do not generally recruit F/O for training into a DEC positions., so they are reliant on getting their command at the company where they are working. I guess just too bad if they keeping on filling the slots with guys from outside.

When you have 1000 pilots, what criteria would you use in a merit based system to order them for retrenchment?

And yes, I am at a large middle east carrier that uses seniority. I have been here a long time and I would not expect to jump any queues. If I choose to go to BA, I would expect to join at the bottom of their list.
Kennytheking is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:43
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U K
Posts: 74
Iím in the bottom third at my airline but despite that and however imperfect it may be, seniority list is the only way to go.
SADDLER is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 20:51
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 156
Lots of talk about fairness of a non-seniority system but none how would it actually be played out.

Imagine you are looking for captains...

Seniority airline: first in gets it. Done, thatís literally all there is to the process. How can it be any more transparent in any possible way. Might not like it, but it is transparent.

Non seniority airline: erm... make sure your mate is the trainer doing the assessment?? 🤷‍♂️
VariablePitchP is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 20:53
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 145
bex88

​​​​​​Spot on comment. Time for the pilot community to stick together. It is not just jobs at stake, but careers. For airlines that survive maybe even consider compulsory 50% contracts for all to start with alongside a commitment to increase for those that want it as recovery escalates. Job protection should be the priority for all.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 21:15
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 965
Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post
Lots of talk about fairness of a non-seniority system but none how would it actually be played out.

Imagine you are looking for captains...

Seniority airline: first in gets it. Done, thatís literally all there is to the process. How can it be any more transparent in any possible way. Might not like it, but it is transparent.

Non seniority airline: erm... make sure your mate is the trainer doing the assessment?? 🤷‍♂️
So there's no assessment before someone is placed on the upgrade course except that their number is up next? Some solution.

Originally Posted by Fair_Weather_Flyer
I worked for an airline that went from a seniority, promote from within culture to a ďmeritĒ and ďexperienceĒ based system with a heavy focus on direct entry Captains. It wasnít pretty and the people it often attracted were :-

​​- those who had been sacked from previous airlines for safety reasons, but rated and available now
- friends of managers from inside the airline
- friends of managers from outside the airline
- individuals that had lied about experience, qualifications and even one with a criminal conviction for perjury
- other airlines non-upgradable FOís with bags of hours and a chain of failed upgrade attempts. These were made DECís or continued to fail upgrades
That's an indication of a deep and systemic culture problem within an airline, rather than lack of seniority list.

Any sensible airline will always promote from within where possible, as training department will have had complete oversight into candidate's training history and the candidate would already have time on type, SOP knowledge, route experience, works of the company etc. DECs are always a bit of a wildcard.
FlyingStone is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 23:45
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 83
Nearly every pilot in the U.K. over sixty thought, twenty years ago, that theyíd be retired by now.

Iím afraid that a lot of these people Ďlove their jobsí too much and canít give up flying much to the detriment of the younger folk. Also, they just canít see how morally wrong they are.

I know loads of guys, who live abroad and have paid little or no tax, who have RAF pensions and still want to fly.

I am not saying how I feel about these people, (well I donít like the lack of morals) Iím just highlighting the fact.

Good luck to everyone.
srjumbo747 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2020, 00:18
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 187
All positions should be purely merit based regardless of DOJ, sex, gender, race etc.....Make ti so pilots can move easily around the world without fear
This sounds like the sort of thing an HR graduate would say

Explain exaclty how a merit based system would work.

I'm in an airline of thousands of pilots and by definition of us doing our jobs properly we should all be doing everything the same way. Nobody should be doing anything better or worse as we ought to following the same script.
Check scores are subjective and depend on the checkie as much as the student, fuel burns and OTP matrix? Forget it as too much is outside our control.

I've worked under both systems, and both have pros and cons. The larger the organisation the more relevance seniority has because it solves a problem no other system can.. Transparency
Lapon is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2020, 03:08
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,826
If seniority is the fairer system right now, but by the end of this world disaster over half of us have lost our jobs (I.e redundancy), what then?

With the critical mass of the pilot community finding itself with no way to earn the same money in aviation ever again, will it still be true that seniority served its purpose?

Like unabated, relentless capitalism, the perceived benefits of seniority collapse within the setting of a world wide disaster. Some will get lucky, most won't.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2020, 05:42
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 187
With the critical mass of the pilot community finding itself with no way to earn the same money in aviation ever again, will it still be true that seniority served its purpose?
Unfortunatly this probably will happpen and seniority will neither have served or failed in its purpose. A seniority system can rarely cater for every black swan event such as we are witnessing, and every seriority system has its own unique differences. Obviously an airline collapses entirely then that system is no longer relevant, but those in the junior ranks of surviving airlines will at least enjoy some protection and why shouldnt they.

I dont think that seniorty is a fantasic system, but its better than any alternative (especially if your airline is large and/or progession is slow).
Lapon is offline  

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