Who will survive this and be here in 6 months ?
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 77
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From: Great White North of the 49th
Who gives a damn what the orange clown thinks, he's an imbecile who is likely to make this worse rather than better... as for Boeing, they will be bailed out by the US Government. The US don't have much choice with the amount of defense materiel tied to Boeing.
As for Boeing, of course there will be government bailouts. It won’t be unique to them or the industry either. Many other industries will need the same to survive. Many big companies and banks will lose value as well. Companies like Apple will lose billions of stock value but they won’t become insolvent. Many big businesses will shed paper value and there will be a new norm. This is a huge game changer.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 101
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From: Paris
I give a damn what the orange clown thinks. He’s all the US has and we should hope he makes good decisions. Based on what I’ve seen he’s been smart enough to surround himself with professionals and experts. Now is not the time to point fingers with political partisanship. We all need to band together and work the problem. I’m stuck with the spineless Mr Trudeau. At least the orange clown is making hard decisions while my leader can’t decide when to take a dump. I’d be happy with a cocky clown vs a spineless wimp right now.
As for Boeing, of course there will be government bailouts. It won’t be unique to them or the industry either. Many other industries will need the same to survive. Many big companies and banks will lose value as well. Companies like Apple will lose billions of stock value but they won’t become insolvent. Many big businesses will shed paper value and there will be a new norm. This is a huge game changer.
As for Boeing, of course there will be government bailouts. It won’t be unique to them or the industry either. Many other industries will need the same to survive. Many big companies and banks will lose value as well. Companies like Apple will lose billions of stock value but they won’t become insolvent. Many big businesses will shed paper value and there will be a new norm. This is a huge game changer.
The guy is either an idiot or doing a very accomplished impersonation of one. Did you not watch his presser the other night? Critical aspects of what he said had to be clarified afterwards. I mean really basic and critical aspects.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: timbuktu
The biggest risk for the airline employees (current and former) is potential loss of pensions that have been accrued over many years. Sure a whole bunch of new airlines, probably with almost the same names, will start up to fill gaps of any that do disappear (all paying less money and with worse t&cs than those which have gone) but that will still leave employees with huge holes in their legacy pension schemes.
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 153
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From: Madrid
Just for starters:
* we don't know the long term effects of exposure, many (most?) recovered SARS patients have chronic lung problems and lipid metabolism changes, many years later, for COVID19 we don't know yet, but early survivors are known not to have recovered full lung function, yet, maybe they will in future, or maybe not
* we know that some corona viruses in animals lie dormant after first exposure and recovery and then go on to kill years later, no one knows what this one will do years from now
1- Only critical patients with severe pneumonia had shown this problems (and "regular" pneumonia caused by bacteria can have the same effect, I have seen this happen on a family member years ago).
2- Remember critical-ill patients represent around 5-10%. And not all of them have shown this problems.
3- You say this virus is new and we don't know much about it (true). So you can't assure this problems are "chronic". They may be temporary.
This virus has "just" been discovered. The entire world is researching vaccines, new treatments and old treatments for other diseases that could work with this one. It's just a matter of time some treatment with good results show up.
And speculations about how this virus could or could not behave in the future doesn't help anybody.
This situation is already bad as it is for the world, for aviation and for us (pilots). And it will most probably get worse before it gets better. So please stop spreading more panic.
Thanks
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 104
Likes: 2
From: CYUL
I give a damn what the orange clown thinks. He’s all the US has and we should hope he makes good decisions. Based on what I’ve seen he’s been smart enough to surround himself with professionals and experts. Now is not the time to point fingers with political partisanship. We all need to band together and work the problem. I’m stuck with the spineless Mr Trudeau. At least the orange clown is making hard decisions while my leader can’t decide when to take a dump. I’d be happy with a cocky clown vs a spineless wimp right now.
As for Boeing, of course there will be government bailouts. It won’t be unique to them or the industry either. Many other industries will need the same to survive. Many big companies and banks will lose value as well. Companies like Apple will lose billions of stock value but they won’t become insolvent. Many big businesses will shed paper value and there will be a new norm. This is a huge game changer.
As for Boeing, of course there will be government bailouts. It won’t be unique to them or the industry either. Many other industries will need the same to survive. Many big companies and banks will lose value as well. Companies like Apple will lose billions of stock value but they won’t become insolvent. Many big businesses will shed paper value and there will be a new norm. This is a huge game changer.
Not saying the federal government is doing a great job (our Premier in Quebec is making Trudeau look awful) but the provincial governments in general (except Alberta and Ontario, Doug Ford telling people to go on spring break last Friday was almost criminal) are doing a good job so far, at least where I live. Your confidence in our friends to the south federal leadership is misguided. I would have shut the border to Americans (people not goods) yesterday as well.
Thread Starter
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
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From: Europe
Someone earlier asked about Air France future . well the French Finance minister Bruno Le Maire announced this morning that no large company will be allowed to fail, money will be injected even nationalization will be looked at .
So here you go. Air France will survive this crisis.
So here you go. Air France will survive this crisis.
Joined: Jul 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 241
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From: Coast to Coast...
The biggest U.S. airlines spent 96% of free cash flow over the last decade to buy back shares of their own stock in order to boost executive bonuses and please wealthy investors. Now, they expect taxpayers to bail them out to the tune of $50 billion. It's the same old story.
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: Great White North of the 49th
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
Cheers all, everyone stay safe.
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: USofA
Who gives a damn what the orange clown thinks, he's an imbecile who is likely to make this worse rather than better... as for Boeing, they will be bailed out by the US Government. The US don't have much choice with the amount of defense materiel tied to Boeing.
The mods should have addicted politics site for your kind of crap.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 532
From: Somewhere
If Boeing get government aid I'd be very aggrieved if I was Bombardier. Build a superior aircraft, unable to sell in the USA because of alleged of government support, lose all your orders to Boeing who then go broke and get a Government bailout
This press release from a few years ago is not going to age well:
This press release from a few years ago is not going to age well:
“We are disappointed that the International Trade Commission did not recognize the harm that Boeing has suffered from the billions of dollars in illegal government subsidies that the Department of Commerce found Bombardier received and used to dump aircraft in the U.S. small single-aisle airplane market. Those violations have harmed the U.S. aerospace industry, and we are feeling the effects of those unfair business practices in the market every day.
“While we disagree with the ITC’s conclusion today, we will review the Commission’s more detailed opinions in full as they are released in the coming days.
“Boeing remains confident in the facts of our case and will continue to document any harm to Boeing and our extensive U.S. supply chain that results from illegal subsidies and dumped pricing. We will not stand by as Bombardier’s illegal business practices continue to harm American workers and the aerospace industry they support. Global trade only works if everyone adheres to the rules we have all agreed to. That’s a belief we will continue to defend.”
“While we disagree with the ITC’s conclusion today, we will review the Commission’s more detailed opinions in full as they are released in the coming days.
“Boeing remains confident in the facts of our case and will continue to document any harm to Boeing and our extensive U.S. supply chain that results from illegal subsidies and dumped pricing. We will not stand by as Bombardier’s illegal business practices continue to harm American workers and the aerospace industry they support. Global trade only works if everyone adheres to the rules we have all agreed to. That’s a belief we will continue to defend.”
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 63
From: UK
I sure as $&@# not defending the guy nor claiming he’s smart. I dislike him as much as the entire world but what I’ve seen the last few days appears promising. I’ve seen an army of health and science professionals, out front, doing the best they can. Whatever happened two weeks ago is ancient history in this clamity. Its not the time to be pointing fingers over what they shoulda coulda done. There will be a time for that but it’s not now. Now is the time to be vigilant, smart and safe.
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
Cheers all, everyone stay safe.
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
Cheers all, everyone stay safe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...96f_story.html
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: Great White North of the 49th
Unfortunately before he finally started listening to the experts, the National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense had been closed down.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...96f_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...96f_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...sponse-office/
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 63
From: UK
I bought into that until I did a little reading and discovered it was false. Now the same paper is setting the record straight.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...sponse-office/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...sponse-office/
I've used my free views for the time being.
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: USA
...but what I’ve seen the last few days appears promising. I’ve seen an army of health and science professionals, out front, doing the best they can. Whatever happened two weeks ago is ancient history in this clamity. Its not the time to be pointing fingers over what they shoulda coulda done. There will be a time for that but it’s not now. Now is the time to be vigilant, smart and safe.
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
Thank you for a measured, rational response to the hysteria and political vitriol, keeping the focus on the actual extant problem. There's a long way to go to set the world right.
I was going to attempt it myself but you did infinitely better than I could have.
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
I think the testing dispute is impossible. No country has the capability to test all citizens. You test those with symptoms in order to quarantine. You simply can not test the entire population. Those with a runny nose will make a beeline to the testing stations and crash the system. It’s a fools errand to think testing everyone will somehow help and suggesting to do so is heightening the hysteria.
Any serious person who wants to get testing up and running wants to do targeted testing, because if we can only manage to sort out the testing mess, it will allow for much more effective containment.
(most of the pronouncements we (USA) have had about the virus being pas the point of containment are really arguments that testing is so fubar that we won't be able to fix it and get all the necessities distributed to where they are needed before it becomes too late. I.e., it's too late from a logistics of testing perspective, not from a direct how widely the virus has spread perspective).
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 845
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From: Kiwiland
There is a lot we dont know about the virus, but some basics about epidemiology and what is happening around the world allow us to be reasonably confident
1 that we should have totally isolated China when they locked down - we didnt and the early cases either came straight from China or via China
2 that we should have locked down our countries (I mean the UK and US) about 2 weeks ago - close borders and self isolate everyone except essential workers
3 that we are both undertesting - we need to test 100s of thousands so we can track and eliminate
If we had done so we could have kept deaths at under 100 in the UK and equivalent in the US. As it is we will see many more. The message must go out to self isolate. Everyone except essential workers. No exceptions as to who or how. No contact. Period. Once each patient can only infect less than one other person we win. We can then unlock, rebuild and get the economy and aviation moving again. Anything less and it will drag on much longer with more lives lost
1 that we should have totally isolated China when they locked down - we didnt and the early cases either came straight from China or via China
2 that we should have locked down our countries (I mean the UK and US) about 2 weeks ago - close borders and self isolate everyone except essential workers
3 that we are both undertesting - we need to test 100s of thousands so we can track and eliminate
If we had done so we could have kept deaths at under 100 in the UK and equivalent in the US. As it is we will see many more. The message must go out to self isolate. Everyone except essential workers. No exceptions as to who or how. No contact. Period. Once each patient can only infect less than one other person we win. We can then unlock, rebuild and get the economy and aviation moving again. Anything less and it will drag on much longer with more lives lost
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: UK
... The message must go out to self isolate. Everyone except essential workers. No exceptions as to who or how. No contact. Period. Once each patient can only infect less than one other person we win. We can then unlock, rebuild and get the economy and aviation moving again. Anything less and it will drag on much longer with more lives lost
Is it the supermarket shelf stockers, produce delivery drivers, and admin staff that run the re-supply operation? What about utility suppliers? Gas, electricity generation and distribution and water/sewage don't look after themselves. Do we tell the police, fire services and other emergency services to stay at home? What about government, local and national? TV and radio networks , do we shut them down and let everyone go back to reading books and playing cards?
Its all very well saying 'essential workers' until you realise who actually is essential.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,358
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From: NEW YORK
There is a lot we dont know about the virus, but some basics about epidemiology and what is happening around the world allow us to be reasonably confident
1 that we should have totally isolated China when they locked down - we didnt and the early cases either came straight from China or via China
2 that we should have locked down our countries (I mean the UK and US) about 2 weeks ago - close borders and self isolate everyone except essential workers
3 that we are both undertesting - we need to test 100s of thousands so we can track and eliminate
If we had done so we could have kept deaths at under 100 in the UK and equivalent in the US. As it is we will see many more. The message must go out to self isolate. Everyone except essential workers. No exceptions as to who or how. No contact. Period. Once each patient can only infect less than one other person we win. We can then unlock, rebuild and get the economy and aviation moving again. Anything less and it will drag on much longer with more lives lost
1 that we should have totally isolated China when they locked down - we didnt and the early cases either came straight from China or via China
2 that we should have locked down our countries (I mean the UK and US) about 2 weeks ago - close borders and self isolate everyone except essential workers
3 that we are both undertesting - we need to test 100s of thousands so we can track and eliminate
If we had done so we could have kept deaths at under 100 in the UK and equivalent in the US. As it is we will see many more. The message must go out to self isolate. Everyone except essential workers. No exceptions as to who or how. No contact. Period. Once each patient can only infect less than one other person we win. We can then unlock, rebuild and get the economy and aviation moving again. Anything less and it will drag on much longer with more lives lost
People have to eat and pay the rent, but most don't have the savings to live off their hump for a couple of months. Nor do their employers have the money to pay them without normal business inflow.
So a shutdown is really a nationalization by another name, the government waives the payments due and provides credits (a la $1000/month suggested by Trump). Unwinding this will be challenging as well.
But it does seem the virus is compelling a very basic reappraisal of what a humane economic structure should look like.