Euro market pilot saturation
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
From: French Alps
Somehow he has 1000hrs and learnt more going from 300-1000hrs learning more than an airline pilot going from 20,000-25,000. How on earth would he know that? He by his own admission has only 1000 hrs TT and is a private pilot. A private pilot who sounds very overconfident at that!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 1
From: Been around the block
Jesus what did I just read.
Disagree completely.
Flying a piston is very different from airline flying.
As I said before we had an instructor recently wash out from our airline. 8 years of instructor experience. He could fly and land but his commercial experience was so bad they had to let him go. 3 attempts at LT.
Our best pilots coming through are MPL guys/gals at the moment.
Other points have been made systems knowledge. I don’t fly and Airbus but from what I have read and heard you can get into trouble if you don’t know your systems.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 180
From: USA
Somehow he has 1000hrs and learnt more going from 300-1000hrs learning more than an airline pilot going from 20,000-25,000. How on earth would he know that? He by his own admission has only 1000 hrs TT and is a private pilot. A private pilot who sounds very overconfident at that!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 14
From: Europe
What our US colleagues imply is that higher paid pilots are safer, and to achieve that they have introduced a 1500 rule.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Orbit
What our US colleagues imply is that higher paid pilots are safer, and to achieve that they have introduced a 1500 rule.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
Last edited by Yury Gagarin; 29th December 2019 at 03:19.
Drain Bamaged
Joined: Mar 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 569
Likes: 107
From: Earth
But Europe already have its “weeding out” system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 496
Likes: 19
From: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 180
From: USA
But Europe already have its “weeding out” system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: England
I’m confused, are you saying this is sufficient experience or are you saying it’s not? Because if you’re saying it is let’s be honest, it’s 40 hours of simulated emergencies, zero actually emergency situations, and by no means enough to be a competent commander. Let’s say during your flying career on average you experience 1 big non normal situation per year. That means after 10 years you’ve got 10 different situations in your past to draw lessons from, after 2.5 years you will only have 2. I know which level of experience I would prefer in my captains.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 496
Likes: 19
From: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Orbit
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Orbit
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 1
From: Been around the block
But Europe already have its “weeding out” system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!
So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere South
[QUOTE]The biz jet world does give safe harbor to some really appalling aviators, or some very strange people who would not otherwise survive in a more standardised airline world. I emphasise "some"!
/QUOTE]
Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.
/QUOTE]
Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
Want an airline story about new guys? How about going into a tough city as a new Captain. Restricted airport but the restriction can be waived by the Chief Pilot. New Captain Ernie telling the story "I tell CS I'm not legal." "Oh, you are. The Chief Pilot waived the restriction." "Great. At least the other guys will be experienced guys. I see this young guy coming towards me - oh, new F/E. He walks up and says "I'm your FO." At this point I go 'oh !!!!'. And then the F/E shows up. He's even newer and younger! I'm not sure they've even started shaving. Combined less than 8 months with the company between them. Both just off IOE." The story gets even funnier. Holding trying to avoid diverting. He's coordinating with the company weather agent at the field about the weather, diversion, etc, Gas is going out the tail pipes and the clock is running down....when suddenly the FO slams the throttles to idle and starts descending "ATC cleared us for the approach." (In a simulator no one worries about running out of gas). 727-100's weren't the tightest airplane and the F/E rapidly tries to manage the loss of air pressure....and screws it up. Instead of the cargo outflow switch he turns off a pack. Two young guys moving way to fast in a scenario that training had never presented. (all professionally trained...). BTW, the cabin's already at 8,000' for the mountain airport landing. And the cabin altitude warning goes off....and their stress goes even higher. "LEVEL OFF!! PUT THAT PACK BACK ON!" Huge pressure spike as the pack and power come on together. LOL. Ernie was a classic story Italian teller. Eyes flashing, hands flying, it was a classic. He's pissed. Reins in the unruly mob and they eventually land ops normal.
The odds of that scenario happening with guys that had 1-2 years in their respective jobs would have been much, much, much lower. But hey, at least they were professionally trained. :-/
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
Jesus what did I just read.
Disagree completely.
Flying a piston is very different from airline flying.
As I said before we had an instructor recently wash out from our airline. 8 years of instructor experience. He could fly and land but his commercial experience was so bad they had to let him go. 3 attempts at LT.
Our best pilots coming through are MPL guys/gals at the moment.
Other points have been made systems knowledge. I don’t fly and Airbus but from what I have read and heard you can get into trouble if you don’t know your systems.
I agree that flying a piston is different. But experience helps in learning, especially at the lower end of experience.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
Thank you. Or maybe a 25,000 hr Captain, who at one point had 300 hrs (at a regional airline), or 1,000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs, or 25,000 hrs, made the observation?
My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.
^ That is him.
This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.
We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.
My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.
^ That is him.
This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.
We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Orbit
I find myself at least partially agreeing with everyone. The focus seems to be on FO experience levels, but the scariest thing for me, (particular to countries outside the US) is guys going from flying school to command of large airliners in 5 years of frankly very narrow experience, SOP parroting, ILS to ILS, groundhog day type flying in the RHS, with very few day to day airmanship or handling challenges. And the misplaced arrogance/complacency that sometimes goes with it as they approach their command. As has been mentioned, the shiny veneer of young Captain "Know it all", can peel away very fast when circumstances don't stick to their rehearsed script.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 1
From: Been around the block
Thank you. Or maybe a 25,000 hr Captain, who at one point had 300 hrs (at a regional airline), or 1,000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs, or 25,000 hrs, made the observation?
My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.
^ That is him.
This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.
We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.
My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.
^ That is him.
This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.
We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.