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Euro market pilot saturation

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Euro market pilot saturation

Old 28th Dec 2019, 20:41
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs. That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.
Somehow he has 1000hrs and learnt more going from 300-1000hrs learning more than an airline pilot going from 20,000-25,000. How on earth would he know that? He by his own admission has only 1000 hrs TT and is a private pilot. A private pilot who sounds very overconfident at that!
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 21:26
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi View Post
The biz jet world does give safe harbor to some really appalling aviators, or some very strange people who would not otherwise survive in a more standardised airline world. I emphasise "some"
100% true, flew with one who was a class case a long time ago. Aircraft damaged, passengers endangered, yelled at for trying to keep him inside limits, no fuel, speed or ice awareness, daily cringe stuff. Thing was a lot of passengers thought he was fantastic.
We are generally well protected from these types in airlines but they do show up.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 21:46
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixthecat View Post
Somehow he has 1000hrs and learnt more going from 300-1000hrs learning more than an airline pilot going from 20,000-25,000. How on earth would he know that? He by his own admission has only 1000 hrs TT and is a private pilot. A private pilot who sounds very overconfident at that!
What if a 25,000 hrs airline pilot told him?
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 23:25
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


Jesus what did I just read.

Disagree completely.
Flying a piston is very different from airline flying.
As I said before we had an instructor recently wash out from our airline. 8 years of instructor experience. He could fly and land but his commercial experience was so bad they had to let him go. 3 attempts at LT.
Our best pilots coming through are MPL guys/gals at the moment.

Other points have been made systems knowledge. I donít fly and Airbus but from what I have read and heard you can get into trouble if you donít know your systems.
you can get abit behind the curve, being in piston and GA flying for that long. There was probably a reason he didnít make the jump before. Hell, Iím scary when I go back to GA. My buddy just bought a Cardinal. We were 2 767 pilots, bumbling our way around.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 02:18
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixthecat View Post
Somehow he has 1000hrs and learnt more going from 300-1000hrs learning more than an airline pilot going from 20,000-25,000. How on earth would he know that? He by his own admission has only 1000 hrs TT and is a private pilot. A private pilot who sounds very overconfident at that!
Well, not sure if I am qualified to answer with only 12.5K hours, but if I think back how much I learned between 300 and a 1000 hours, and I multiply by 2 what Iíve learned in the last 2.5K I think the private pilot has a point.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 02:47
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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What our US colleagues imply is that higher paid pilots are safer, and to achieve that they have introduced a 1500 rule.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 03:08
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
What our US colleagues imply is that higher paid pilots are safer, and to achieve that they have introduced a 1500 rule.
In Europe a guy with 1500+ SEP time have a very slim chance even to get an interview because it means he have a several years of flying in unregulated environment developing uncontrolled habits at something which has zero relevance to airline flying.
Bullshit. I fly regurarly with unscreened p2f morons that cannot land the plane and should I have a hearth attack there are very high chances everybody will die. The cadet approach is good only for established airlines with the resources to select and train the right people. Still not having spent an hour alone in the air is not a good thing.. The only few good ones are those who did some kind of flying before getting into the cockpit of an airliner. The rest are seat warmers, paid ( poorly)passengers with attitudes and daddys money selfie expert with zero talent and poor English that would not pass a screening as bus drivers. Something has to be done to stop the pilot milling industry.. The market is not saturad of pilot..but of wandering bombs.

Last edited by Yury Gagarin; 29th Dec 2019 at 03:19.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 06:44
  #88 (permalink)  
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But Europe already have its “weeding out” system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!

So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 07:20
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi View Post
is guys going from flying school to command of large airliners in 5 years of frankly very narrow experience
I have seen two and a half years from first time in a cockpit to Command of a medium jet. That is 5 recurrent checks. That is 40 hours of emergencies and lofts before being in charge of another cadet in the cockpit.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 07:34
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post
But Europe already have its “weeding out” system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!

So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
In effect, they have. Pretty much every airline pilot in the USA has a college degree. Yes, it doesn't have to be an aviation degree. But I submit a lot of the E-ATPL theorie isn't very practical either.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 07:35
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iggy View Post
I have seen two and a half years from first time in a cockpit to Command of a medium jet. That is 5 recurrent checks. That is 40 hours of emergencies and lofts before being in charge of another cadet in the cockpit.
Iím confused, are you saying this is sufficient experience or are you saying itís not? Because if youíre saying it is letís be honest, itís 40 hours of simulated emergencies, zero actually emergency situations, and by no means enough to be a competent commander. Letís say during your flying career on average you experience 1 big non normal situation per year. That means after 10 years youíve got 10 different situations in your past to draw lessons from, after 2.5 years you will only have 2. I know which level of experience I would prefer in my captains.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 07:56
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mansnothot View Post
Iím confused, are you saying this is sufficient experience or are you saying itís not?
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...

Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 08:25
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iggy View Post
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...

Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
100% agreed!!! I have seen a few episodes of 2500TT hours poorly trained captains with 500 hours TT P2F FO getting very close to kill everybody on board. Just by luck it did not happen..but it will. No layer of protection left..
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 08:28
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iggy View Post
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...

Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
100% agreed!!! I have seen a few episodes of 2500TT hours poorly trained captains with 500 hours TT P2F FO getting very close to kill everybody on board. Just by luck it did not happen..but it will. No layer of protection left. Pure madness driven by greed. Less expert the pilots lesser the salary offered and accepted. This must end.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 08:42
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mansnothot View Post
zero actually emergency situations,
In 30 years as a professional pilot I never had to declare an emergency. Am I a bad pilot?
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 08:49
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post
But Europe already have its ďweeding outĒ system, it is those fourteen EASA ATPL exams!
Circumnavigating the lack of flying experience by beefing up theory through the roof!

So asking to implement a 1500TT rule in Europe would be like asking a complete revamp of the ATPL theory in the States
and the ATPL exams are so difficult, itís the equivalent of a college degree!!!!
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 10:03
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]The biz jet world does give safe harbor to some really appalling aviators, or some very strange people who would not otherwise survive in a more standardised airline world. I emphasise "some"!
/QUOTE]

Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 11:50
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iggy View Post
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot.
5 years from flight school to A320 Captain and 600hr TT FO:

Ural Airlines Flight 178

They did fine. No "madness" there. No pilot at a reputable carrier is going to be checked out as a Captain unless a highly experienced training department concurs. Under the US System you can become a Captain of a Regional jet after as little as 1000hrs prior to an airline (instructing in light aircraft) and then 1000hrs as an FO, just over a year's worth of operational airline flying. And in a market that's so desperate for pilots that a lot of those who shouldn't be in a flight deck will be (Atlas Air for example). That's the real madness. A Euro-style pilot who was selected and trained for airline flying from day one and has spent a good 4-5 years in the right hand seat doing multiple sectors a day and getting exposed to Weather, Traffic, Culture, Passenger, Mechanical issues on a daily basis would be a much better option.



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Old 29th Dec 2019, 14:27
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Are you really comparing a golfer flying for hobby to a professional pilot that goes through checking every 6 months just to try to make your point? Really?
Low time and low experience is always that. That's the point. The example was just a version of that. If the professional training compensates for low time/experience why don't they just hire them into the left seat? CA Cadet fly with FO Cadet?

Want an airline story about new guys? How about going into a tough city as a new Captain. Restricted airport but the restriction can be waived by the Chief Pilot. New Captain Ernie telling the story "I tell CS I'm not legal." "Oh, you are. The Chief Pilot waived the restriction." "Great. At least the other guys will be experienced guys. I see this young guy coming towards me - oh, new F/E. He walks up and says "I'm your FO." At this point I go 'oh shit'. And then the F/E shows up. He's even newer and younger! I'm not sure they've even started shaving. Combined less than 8 months with the company between them. Both just off IOE." The story gets even funnier. Holding trying to avoid diverting. He's coordinating with the company weather agent at the field about the weather, diversion, etc, Gas is going out the tail pipes and the clock is running down....when suddenly the FO slams the throttles to idle and starts descending "ATC cleared us for the approach." (In a simulator no one worries about running out of gas). 727-100's weren't the tightest airplane and the F/E rapidly tries to manage the loss of air pressure....and screws it up. Instead of the cargo outflow switch he turns off a pack. Two young guys moving way to fast in a scenario that training had never presented. (all professionally trained...). BTW, the cabin's already at 8,000' for the mountain airport landing. And the cabin altitude warning goes off....and their stress goes even higher. "LEVEL OFF!! PUT THAT PACK BACK ON!" Huge pressure spike as the pack and power come on together. LOL. Ernie was a classic story Italian teller. Eyes flashing, hands flying, it was a classic. He's pissed. Reins in the unruly mob and they eventually land ops normal.

The odds of that scenario happening with guys that had 1-2 years in their respective jobs would have been much, much, much lower. But hey, at least they were professionally trained. :-/

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Old 29th Dec 2019, 14:36
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


Jesus what did I just read.

Disagree completely.
Flying a piston is very different from airline flying.
As I said before we had an instructor recently wash out from our airline. 8 years of instructor experience. He could fly and land but his commercial experience was so bad they had to let him go. 3 attempts at LT.
Our best pilots coming through are MPL guys/gals at the moment.

Other points have been made systems knowledge. I donít fly and Airbus but from what I have read and heard you can get into trouble if you donít know your systems.
Boeing's have some similar issues. FCLH thrust hold, altitude level off settings in FLCH vs VNAV, inappropriate use of V/S at altitude and climbing, or descending, at a rate outside of the ability of the airplane.

I agree that flying a piston is different. But experience helps in learning, especially at the lower end of experience.
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