Euro market pilot saturation
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: Europe
whilst not agreeing or disagreeing with your post there is absolutely zero evidence (real studied accident and incident data as opposed to anecdotal) to back up your statement. And like others I have flown with “cadets” with virtually no experience that can put many oldies to shame and I have flown with many experienced pilots that I wouldn’t trust to be in charge of a TV remote control, and everything in between.
1500 hrs in a 172 is a waste in terms of commercial jet/prop flying.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 794
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
Why is everyone using the banner towing and flying around the circuit as the example of basic experience. It plainly isn’t. Most of us cut our teeth single pilot IFR flying night freight in PA-31s with no radar and dodgy autopilots. No one is a hero.. all of us did this, it was just a job which paid our bills. And before that, we were bush flying in DHC2, C206 and C210s. No magenta line anywhere. Who even knew magenta was a colour in those days?
So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.
The path to every airline managers wet dream is being paved by new technologies, automation and a very enhanced ATC system. You have to try really, really hard to crash these days. What this boils down to is that an experienced pilot will no longer be required. CPDLC is the thus edge of the wedge. not long before it’s next generation drives your autopilot directly. All that’s needed is just one guy up front who can read a manual and in extremis bang it down on a runway somewhere in case all that automation fails. 100 hours total time, all of which obtained in the sim will suffice. T&Cs will continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. A brave new world indeed.
So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.
The path to every airline managers wet dream is being paved by new technologies, automation and a very enhanced ATC system. You have to try really, really hard to crash these days. What this boils down to is that an experienced pilot will no longer be required. CPDLC is the thus edge of the wedge. not long before it’s next generation drives your autopilot directly. All that’s needed is just one guy up front who can read a manual and in extremis bang it down on a runway somewhere in case all that automation fails. 100 hours total time, all of which obtained in the sim will suffice. T&Cs will continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. A brave new world indeed.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: UK
A 200-hr pilot is faster to create than a 1500-hr pilot, and the difficult process of getting 1500hrs when you're not hired directly into a Ryanair or Easyjet definitely culls many of the wannabes. Consequently, less pilots on the market, better Ts and C's for all, and those that do make it are more experienced, have been around more experience, have less entitled attitudes, and are liable to make more informed choices. Good all round.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 108
Likes: 2
From: ZKPY
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...
Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: In a house
Sometimes it's the very experienced pilots that will get you into bad scenarios! Although the argument that more experience is better than low experience is usually correct, it can just as easily be the other way around!
I've flown with both extremes and learned my lesson, always double check and don't fully trust anyone. Experience is great when there is time to deal with a situation where the bigger outside the box approach is needed, most situations I've ever had to deal with, the minimum experience pilots have been able to handle it with no problem. It really depends on the individual and their own capabilities.
I've flown with both extremes and learned my lesson, always double check and don't fully trust anyone. Experience is great when there is time to deal with a situation where the bigger outside the box approach is needed, most situations I've ever had to deal with, the minimum experience pilots have been able to handle it with no problem. It really depends on the individual and their own capabilities.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 79
Likes: 62
From: homeless
Our modern computers do look sleek and capable of doing wonders but in reality they are nothing but a bunch of Nand gates on steroids not very different from Apollo era machines. If you take the best ever super computer of 2019 and try to emulate natural behavior of a living thing , its gonna go nowhere further than retarded baby mouse intellect. We have reached the end of technological progress in its present form and computers are not getting any smarter, just a bit faster. So don't worry , dark era of cyborg pilots has been postponed for another future +50 years after ww3.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Well you make a good point about deviations from controlled flight, however, I think most people would agree that the overall loss of flying skills during an airline career has nothing to do with background and personal 'level', but more with company culture and what they do and do not allow. If you watch a few Justplanes on youtube and you see a crew autolanding an aircraft in LHR in cavok and 0 wind, then I think you could have spent 15.000 hours in a crop duster, you still will lose everything your learn. This is a culture problem, not a training or personal experience level problem.
but the idea of turning out a lot of low time candidates, safe or not, will not do anything to help the pilots bargaining position for better contracts. You become easy to replace.
Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 30th December 2019 at 15:56.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 1
From: Been around the block
[QUOTE=PaulH1;10649552]
Yeah Opa Locka transition to visual is pure Top Gun....there’s a power like somewhere and a big lake. You should probably paint a big Okochobee sticker on the side of your plane for acknowledgement of your ace skills.
The biz jet world does give safe harbor to some really appalling aviators, or some very strange people who would not otherwise survive in a more standardised airline world. I emphasise "some"!
/QUOTE]
Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.
/QUOTE]
Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.
Yeah Opa Locka transition to visual is pure Top Gun....there’s a power like somewhere and a big lake. You should probably paint a big Okochobee sticker on the side of your plane for acknowledgement of your ace skills.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Australia
A plentiful supply of low hour, self funded, cadet 'style' pilots is the natural future for airlines filling the RHS. Most will be loaded with debt, not guaranteed a job after training and easily replaceable during their early years. You essentially have a captive workforce and can set pay scales at a happy medium that still sees people lining up for a shot. It's great for getting into an airline job with few hours, but it will continue to drag the general terms and conditions of the industry down to very basic wages, especially as hiring slows down. But hey, eventually that better job will present itself yeh?
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 99
Likes: 1
From: Location
I just want to share my little perspective about experience prior flying big jets. I did over 2300 hours of single piston and single turbine flying before piloting twin turbines, and eventually moving into big jets. My first job on a big jet was when I had 3500 hours.
I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.
You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.
I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.
I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.
You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.
I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.
Last edited by Can737; 31st December 2019 at 04:22.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 111
From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Well said Can737. Many people have no idea how challenging flying small planes are in some countries. People always mention military as difficult which is certainly the case but bush flying is in some places, actually more challenging.
Last edited by pineteam; 31st December 2019 at 05:26. Reason: Typo
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
From: here
I just want to share my little perspective about experience prior flying big jets. I did over 2300 hours of single piston and single turbine flying before piloting twin turbines, and eventually moving into big jets. My first job on a big jet was when I had 3500 hours.
I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.
You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.
I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.
I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.
You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.
I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.
Last edited by cucuotto; 2nd January 2020 at 06:05.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 197
Likes: 13
From: ??-ask crewing
Or a crosswind landing on limits! (I'm not sure if it's laugh or cry).
Although for the FO, max x-wind was a non assessed exercise in the sim, the copilot had 4 attempts, completely lost control, and crashed on each one - He didn't seem to know what the ailerons were for - smash it on with a mistimed rudder input, ailerons neutral, downwind wheel digs in, upwind wing lifts and barreling across the grass we go/or pod strike/sim freeze. That wasn't the worrying thing - but that he and TRE - just shrugs all round (granted, being unassessed, the TRE couldn't do much else), and with an LPC ticking all the boxes with perfect SOPs - everyone goes home with above average grades, and out he goes to do max cross wind landings with 200 people aboard. Lack of handling skills really doesn't seem to be a barrier these days. But "zero knowledge"? Well I disagree partly on that one, as the wizz-kids are generally savvy enough to know that IS one thing that will get them kicked out on their ear.
Although for the FO, max x-wind was a non assessed exercise in the sim, the copilot had 4 attempts, completely lost control, and crashed on each one - He didn't seem to know what the ailerons were for - smash it on with a mistimed rudder input, ailerons neutral, downwind wheel digs in, upwind wing lifts and barreling across the grass we go/or pod strike/sim freeze. That wasn't the worrying thing - but that he and TRE - just shrugs all round (granted, being unassessed, the TRE couldn't do much else), and with an LPC ticking all the boxes with perfect SOPs - everyone goes home with above average grades, and out he goes to do max cross wind landings with 200 people aboard. Lack of handling skills really doesn't seem to be a barrier these days. But "zero knowledge"? Well I disagree partly on that one, as the wizz-kids are generally savvy enough to know that IS one thing that will get them kicked out on their ear.
Last edited by Sick; 31st December 2019 at 09:55.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Can737 has hit the nail on the head. I think that many who argue how great low time MCC candidates are must have come through that route. In my first 1000 hours I experienced a broken crankshaft engine failure with a glider on tow, a fire in the cockpit, radio failure, iced over front windows... and so many here just talk about 1000 hours in the pattern.
But the reality is that MCC is here to stay. There will be a steady supply of low time pilots. Pilots jump from job to job to get long haul or wide body or command time, and in the end it does little for the profession as a whole. We will need stronger unified groups with a collective strength of a union. Unfortunately the LCC have mastered how to divide bases and contracts to whipsaw the pilots back and forth.
But the reality is that MCC is here to stay. There will be a steady supply of low time pilots. Pilots jump from job to job to get long haul or wide body or command time, and in the end it does little for the profession as a whole. We will need stronger unified groups with a collective strength of a union. Unfortunately the LCC have mastered how to divide bases and contracts to whipsaw the pilots back and forth.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
From: Switzerland
I think you will find lack of airmanship and training did play a part in the Max accidents.
Especially the ET incident.
Well before MCAS was active the pilots distracted by the faulty A/A probe causing the Stick Shaker, left full takeoff power set throughout the flight until ground contact. Not good Airmanship.
No, I don't work for Boeing.
Especially the ET incident.
Well before MCAS was active the pilots distracted by the faulty A/A probe causing the Stick Shaker, left full takeoff power set throughout the flight until ground contact. Not good Airmanship.
No, I don't work for Boeing.
737’s have a very pronounced pitch/power couple due to the underslung engines and conventional flight controls. If you’re low and have no pitch authority reducing thrust is extremely counter intuitive.
Pilots are being trained in a yoyo maneuver that allows trim authority to be recovered but it’s pretty hard to fly.
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere South
[QUOTE=4runner;10650627]
Scarcasm aside, my post was not intended to sing my own praises - it was to highlight areas where, in my experience, some airline pilots transitioning to Biz Jet operations have had difficulties.
Great idea! Trouble is finding somewhere to stick it as the side of the aircraft is now full!
Scarcasm aside, my post was not intended to sing my own praises - it was to highlight areas where, in my experience, some airline pilots transitioning to Biz Jet operations have had difficulties.
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
From: here
Removing the checking power to airlines would would do a lot.. It's a great black mailing tool by the way. Let's send a German TRE do checks at an enlarged Eastern EU low co airline ..
I would go further and say that national CAAs should disappear cause in certain countries it's just a pantomime..
I would go further and say that national CAAs should disappear cause in certain countries it's just a pantomime..
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,731
Likes: 53
From: World
Removing the checking power to airlines would would do a lot.. It's a great black mailing tool by the way. Let's send a German TRE do checks at an enlarged Eastern EU low co airline ..
I would go further and say that national CAAs should disappear cause in certain countries it's just a pantomime..
I would go further and say that national CAAs should disappear cause in certain countries it's just a pantomime..
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 665
Likes: 6
From: hang on let me check
Yes the european pilot market is saturated, what are you going to do about it? Pack and go to the other side of the world? Most likely not, I’ve seen people accept anything to be home. So there you go
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Why is everyone using the banner towing and flying around the circuit as the example of basic experience. It plainly isn’t. Most of us cut our teeth single pilot IFR flying night freight in PA-31s with no radar and dodgy autopilots. No one is a hero.. all of us did this, it was just a job which paid our bills. And before that, we were bush flying in DHC2, C206 and C210s. No magenta line anywhere. Who even knew magenta was a colour in those days?
So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.
The path to every airline managers wet dream is being paved by new technologies, automation and a very enhanced ATC system. You have to try really, really hard to crash these days. What this boils down to is that an experienced pilot will no longer be required. CPDLC is the thus edge of the wedge. not long before it’s next generation drives your autopilot directly. All that’s needed is just one guy up front who can read a manual and in extremis bang it down on a runway somewhere in case all that automation fails. 100 hours total time, all of which obtained in the sim will suffice. T&Cs will continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. A brave new world indeed.
So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.
The path to every airline managers wet dream is being paved by new technologies, automation and a very enhanced ATC system. You have to try really, really hard to crash these days. What this boils down to is that an experienced pilot will no longer be required. CPDLC is the thus edge of the wedge. not long before it’s next generation drives your autopilot directly. All that’s needed is just one guy up front who can read a manual and in extremis bang it down on a runway somewhere in case all that automation fails. 100 hours total time, all of which obtained in the sim will suffice. T&Cs will continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. A brave new world indeed.
And it's really hard to crash these days? No! Unfortunately...The last one was only 5 days ago, on Dec 27th in Almaty...And you've heard of Lion Air and Ethiopian B737 Max?
FBW390