Euro market pilot saturation
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
The rich kids do better is a concept beyond aviation. Sociological finding, that as a group people with golden spoons achieve "measurable" (ehm) higher goals in life than people born with no spoons at all. Success breed success, it's the upbringing and resources their families can provide, role models and responsibility patterns they learn early in life.
I respect you may not think so, and acknowledge your friend tells you stories of somewhere. I've seen otherwise living and working over there. Upon closer inspection, the P2F is a strawman. It exists but has nowhere near the attributes the scaremongers shout of.
The best 4 out of 15 industry freshmen (no matter the road to flight-deck) would have 3 well-off-ish and 1 natural talent. In a strange fate of twist now and then you realize that from the rich families (hotels, construction companies, people who own their private aeroplanes) it is the dumb apple sent to be a pilot. And still floats comfortably above average in his class.
Most of the P2F are highly respectable self-achievers who had the lucidity to weigh their options realistically and then did something about it. Not that many rich kids there actually, those would get a loan with collateral from their parents and a) do CAE Oxford b) /more likely/ chose a different vocation. Because rich does not equal stupid. Quite on the contrary, if you look with the statistical glasses on.
I respect you may not think so, and acknowledge your friend tells you stories of somewhere. I've seen otherwise living and working over there. Upon closer inspection, the P2F is a strawman. It exists but has nowhere near the attributes the scaremongers shout of.
The best 4 out of 15 industry freshmen (no matter the road to flight-deck) would have 3 well-off-ish and 1 natural talent. In a strange fate of twist now and then you realize that from the rich families (hotels, construction companies, people who own their private aeroplanes) it is the dumb apple sent to be a pilot. And still floats comfortably above average in his class.
Most of the P2F are highly respectable self-achievers who had the lucidity to weigh their options realistically and then did something about it. Not that many rich kids there actually, those would get a loan with collateral from their parents and a) do CAE Oxford b) /more likely/ chose a different vocation. Because rich does not equal stupid. Quite on the contrary, if you look with the statistical glasses on.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: camelshitcity
None of the few good pilot I have flown with come from rich families. Most of the incredible number of those who should do something else in life do.
Your theory is nonsense and you just seem to defend a system you have personal interest with idiotic theories on the superiority of the rich Are you the Donald Trump of aviation.?
Your theory is nonsense and you just seem to defend a system you have personal interest with idiotic theories on the superiority of the rich Are you the Donald Trump of aviation.?
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
From: 60 north
Plenty of Licences issued in Europe.
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 987
Likes: 197
From: Mexico City
Parts of the statement are true. People from better off backgrounds to tend have higher standards of living compared to people from lower socio economic backgrounds. Access to education and finance etc. That is a fact.
As for P2F I have seen a mixed bag. Some were good, most sat around average and a few terrible ones. I know of people rejected by P2F airlines for being really bad pilots. Nearly all the P2F people I met did it simply because their home countries airline required political or family connections to get hired.
Most pay to flyers were not rich kids by any means. I know a few rich kids. They would never be pilots.
As for P2F I have seen a mixed bag. Some were good, most sat around average and a few terrible ones. I know of people rejected by P2F airlines for being really bad pilots. Nearly all the P2F people I met did it simply because their home countries airline required political or family connections to get hired.
Most pay to flyers were not rich kids by any means. I know a few rich kids. They would never be pilots.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: camelshitcity
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
Now..what can we do about it?
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Munich, DE
That will get you a good pitch change with power, apart from the fact that the 737 redefined "short-coupled" since the -100. The poor thing has been mutated from a decent cut-down 707 with 727 engines to a kludge thrown together by "clowns supervised by monkeys", as a Boeing pilot put it. Ask anyone who flew 732s which one handles like a real airplane, and which one like a drunk hog. Same thing happened with the MD-11, and it's well known that Boeing's engineering went straight to hell after the merger with MDD.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Third planet from the sun
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
When did a fellow Captain last tell you:
" Dude, these young fellas are super duper good, one better then the other.!!"
Never ever heard that!
On the other hand I often get the feedback from other Captains that they are tired of incompetent and arrogant FOs.
I sure am!
It did not used to be this way 15 to 20 years ago.
Is this proof?
No, it is subjective, but we are end users of the New Aviation Training Industry, and we are qualified to judge.
It has simply failed!
Helmet On
Taking cover.
Cpt B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 229
Likes: 2
From: New York
While I agree that experience is not the only metric
Every "good" pilot gets better with experience
Every "Bad" pilot gets a little less bad with experience
On top of that It is always better to scare yourself !!!!less on your own in a little Cessna and swear to never do that again than to do the same as a captain in a 737.
There are capts in Europe that have never diverted, never done a GA, never have had to use the QRH in flight. They are flying with guys that are trailing twelve miles behind the tail. The only reason nothing happens is because these are extremely reliable machines
Every "good" pilot gets better with experience
Every "Bad" pilot gets a little less bad with experience
On top of that It is always better to scare yourself !!!!less on your own in a little Cessna and swear to never do that again than to do the same as a captain in a 737.
There are capts in Europe that have never diverted, never done a GA, never have had to use the QRH in flight. They are flying with guys that are trailing twelve miles behind the tail. The only reason nothing happens is because these are extremely reliable machines
A bad pilot may be statistically more likely to fail with more opportunity to screw up!
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: Belgium
But the standard has falling DRAMATICALLY.
- No quality has not fallen dramatically
- There is a shortage of pilots trained at that means airlines are now hiring people that were 5 years ago were not even considered
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: In a house
Well there is two answers:
- No quality has not fallen dramatically
- There is a shortage of pilots trained at that means airlines are now hiring people that were 5 years ago were not even considered
There is definitely a problem with communication in my opinion. I was line training a new first officer recently who seemed to be completely lost. The problems continued with other training captains over several flights with no improvements so some inquiries were made. It turns out that this person had problems all the way through flight school and all the way through the type rating but somehow managed to pass the important tests even though there was an underlying problem. This person should have been stopped at a much earlier stage and not allowed through the system. Its easy to talk about Swiss cheese models for aviation accidents but what about maybe the flight schools using the same model to catch students who are not up to the task.
It is quite scary to think that the same person was asked to leave and has recently gone and joined another airline in the central / eastern part of Europe
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Orbit
Depends who you work for and which candidates are applying! I agree that the quality of the top candidates is still the same however there are a lot more candidates who should not be allowed anywhere near a plane. Once the top candidates are taken there are plenty of airlines mainly towards eastern Europe, Asia etc who seem to hire these people who really don't have any idea about flying or the motor skills to safely fly an aircraft.
There is definitely a problem with communication in my opinion. I was line training a new first officer recently who seemed to be completely lost. The problems continued with other training captains over several flights with no improvements so some inquiries were made. It turns out that this person had problems all the way through flight school and all the way through the type rating but somehow managed to pass the important tests even though there was an underlying problem. This person should have been stopped at a much earlier stage and not allowed through the system. Its easy to talk about Swiss cheese models for aviation accidents but what about maybe the flight schools using the same model to catch students who are not up to the task.
It is quite scary to think that the same person was asked to leave and has recently gone and joined another airline in the central / eastern part of Europe
There is definitely a problem with communication in my opinion. I was line training a new first officer recently who seemed to be completely lost. The problems continued with other training captains over several flights with no improvements so some inquiries were made. It turns out that this person had problems all the way through flight school and all the way through the type rating but somehow managed to pass the important tests even though there was an underlying problem. This person should have been stopped at a much earlier stage and not allowed through the system. Its easy to talk about Swiss cheese models for aviation accidents but what about maybe the flight schools using the same model to catch students who are not up to the task.
It is quite scary to think that the same person was asked to leave and has recently gone and joined another airline in the central / eastern part of Europe
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 665
Likes: 6
From: hang on let me check
Guys, what is there to say. People are queing left and right to join airlines which about 15/20 years ago would have been avoided like the plague by any half decent pilot.
The conditions are shocking. And people make careers there, with whatever justification.
And all I see are Instagram pictures of kids smiling in the flight deck. This is what it’s come to, in Europe especially. It is what it is.
The conditions are shocking. And people make careers there, with whatever justification.
And all I see are Instagram pictures of kids smiling in the flight deck. This is what it’s come to, in Europe especially. It is what it is.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Transient
I have found that the "standard" has slipped over the last 20 or so years. Newer system operators have a good but academic grasp of SOP. However they are poor below 200 ft. Ground shy. Overcontrolling. No feel.
Thus the system operator jibe. I would say the vast majority are not stick and rudder pilots as they have never had to be.
Thus the system operator jibe. I would say the vast majority are not stick and rudder pilots as they have never had to be.
Last edited by Douglas Bahada; 17th January 2020 at 07:32.
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: Belgium
I quote you 100% I have seen plenty of people that should not be flying. They are a liability and the product of the " training business" that as long as they pay...let everybody go through. Very scary.
In the past those people were never allowed to fly and they are generally the ones complaining on Pprune and blame the market, the operators etc since they have a LICENCE and hence deserve a job. What they miss is the standard required. Now in the current market some of them have been able to go to the Enter air and the likes and bought a job... (most fun one: guy was not hired by us as he was cr@p but ended up with a Polish ACMI operator we used for summer lift flying our customers after all 
)So I might not be making friends: at the moment there is a shortage of well qualified candidates... And if you are not hired in the current market go and get some honest feedback of why you are not hired and do not blame the market....
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: Melrose
Euro market pilot saturation
My wife and I have given up flying, not because we think we could get killed by dodgy pilots (see above), but because we cannot stand the hassle on the ground in the airport. However as a pilot with 1000+ hrs of gliding - 2200 sorties, Silver C,and an instructor rating, I think I can see the drift of the this thread. There are people flying big aeroplanes full of people who should not be doing this. Every one of my 1000 hrs was 'hands on stick', and as I was soon teaching flying to the great British public, who could just turn up at the club, join, and expect to be taught to fly, I had some 'interesting' pupils to say the least. However, in my undergraduate days I had applied to join Glasgow University Air Squadron - I didn't get in - too many applicants that year, but I did have the full RAF medical, aptitude (in a Link trainer), and attitude tests, which took all day in the nearest military hospital. Why do the airlines not do this? The captain of my school (captain of rugger/cricket/golf etc) was in the same group as me, and he failed the eyesight test - slightly green/red colour blind! I was determined to learn to fly, and still hoped to do that in the RAF during my National Service (giving my age away here), but on graduation as a mechanical engineer I was hired by Rolls-Royce and trained as a jet engine designer (Conway and RB108) and thus became permanently exempt. I took up gliding and I have never felt any inclination to fly powered aircraft.
Joined: Apr 2012
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 402
Likes: 18
From: UK
When it comes to the airlines, there shouldn't be an "industry" taking huge sums from trainees (or their parents) and putting them in the right-hand seat of an airliner after a couple of hundred hours of training. In my opinion, it should either be like the CTC of old with it's 3% acceptance rate, very high placement rate and available funding, or CAP 509-style with full airline funding. I think the demise of CAP 509 and the arrival of a 200 hour "aerial work" CPL replacing the old 700 hour one has dented T&Cs massively by flooding the supply side of the market, strengthening the demand side's hand massively.
As I've said on here many a time, I work on the railway. A few train train operating companies here in the UK have agreed to pay their off-the-street trainees the same (or nearly the same) salary as fully qualified drivers part-way through training. Why? There's a shortage of perennial shortage of drivers driven by the fact that all training must be done in-house, it gives the union a bit more bargaining power. A similar thing happened with newly qualified drivers at another place, shortage of instructors meaning training took longer, the union said, "well, you should be giving them back-pay once they qualify" and the company indeed did that. People were getting £30k payslips the month they got their key.
That's what you pilots could do if the supply/demand situation was in your favour. A lot of people have mentioned supply/demand situation in the US airline market context but wherever it favours the supply (employee) side, you're onto a winner!
As I've said on here many a time, I work on the railway. A few train train operating companies here in the UK have agreed to pay their off-the-street trainees the same (or nearly the same) salary as fully qualified drivers part-way through training. Why? There's a shortage of perennial shortage of drivers driven by the fact that all training must be done in-house, it gives the union a bit more bargaining power. A similar thing happened with newly qualified drivers at another place, shortage of instructors meaning training took longer, the union said, "well, you should be giving them back-pay once they qualify" and the company indeed did that. People were getting £30k payslips the month they got their key.
That's what you pilots could do if the supply/demand situation was in your favour. A lot of people have mentioned supply/demand situation in the US airline market context but wherever it favours the supply (employee) side, you're onto a winner!
Last edited by Chris the Robot; 17th January 2020 at 18:08.
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: London
Olympia463
You make some excellent points re the Air Force. I left UGSAS two years ago now, (we are now Universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde Air Squadron) and everyone is required to sit the full 8-hour suite of aptitude tests at Cranwell in their first year - although it is not a requirement to pass to join the Sqn.
L3 airline academy? 45 minutes on a computer!
I accrued around 30 hours in the Grob with what I would describe as second to none quality instructors. Each with many years of Nimrod/Lightning/Tornado/Chinook flying under their belts. Day one taught to fly base on “feel” of the aircraft, set the throttle based on the engine noise, being able to tell if you are gaining altitude just by the horizon, etc .No looking at the instrument panel(other than for confirmation, of course!). You are flying an aircraft and using your natural senses to gauge control inputs. I am of course very grateful to start my flying career from the very best and I hope I do not forget all that they taught me!
I am now ending University and a looking for a career in Civilian flying and while I have total trust in the academies (L3 , CAE, FTE) I do think it’s unlikely the instruction will quite match my UGSAS days... but who knows?
You make some excellent points re the Air Force. I left UGSAS two years ago now, (we are now Universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde Air Squadron) and everyone is required to sit the full 8-hour suite of aptitude tests at Cranwell in their first year - although it is not a requirement to pass to join the Sqn.
L3 airline academy? 45 minutes on a computer!
I accrued around 30 hours in the Grob with what I would describe as second to none quality instructors. Each with many years of Nimrod/Lightning/Tornado/Chinook flying under their belts. Day one taught to fly base on “feel” of the aircraft, set the throttle based on the engine noise, being able to tell if you are gaining altitude just by the horizon, etc .No looking at the instrument panel(other than for confirmation, of course!). You are flying an aircraft and using your natural senses to gauge control inputs. I am of course very grateful to start my flying career from the very best and I hope I do not forget all that they taught me!
I am now ending University and a looking for a career in Civilian flying and while I have total trust in the academies (L3 , CAE, FTE) I do think it’s unlikely the instruction will quite match my UGSAS days... but who knows?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
I had applied to join Glasgow University Air Squadron - I didn't get in - too many applicants that year, but I did have the full RAF medical, aptitude (in a Link trainer), and attitude tests, which took all day in the nearest military hospital. Why do the airlines not do this?
.
.
The airline I am most familiar with puts prospective recruits, even those already holding medicals, commercial licences and perhaps with thousands of mil/civvy hours through a selection processes that amongst many other things will involve a short assessment session in a simulator.
Further to that and also to answer LanceHudson's comment that:
.I left UGSAS two years ago now, (we are now Universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde Air Squadron) and everyone is required to sit the full 8-hour suite of aptitude tests at Cranwell in their first year - although it is not a requirement to pass to join the Sqn.
L3 airline academy? 45 minutes on a computer!
L3 airline academy? 45 minutes on a computer!
If, OTOH, the student (or his/her parents) are carrying all the financial risk then the training organisation(s) might perhaps have a slightly different approach to aptitude tests.
Last edited by wiggy; 18th January 2020 at 12:12. Reason: Spolling