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Euro market pilot saturation

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Euro market pilot saturation

Old 27th Dec 2019, 02:46
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Most airlines have a commuter policy now where you get a certain amout of hotel stays per month to use the night before or the night after your trip finishes. Many airlines also give you a few "no show" days a year if thr flights you commute on are full.

You really do have a choice now where before most regional pilots didnt.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 06:01
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I don't think there are too many places in the world where pilots commute 5hrs of flight time for their shot haul job. For instance Ryanair has over 80 pilots bases, Delta has 9. Much more opportunity to be based closer to your home.
And the improvement in pay didn't stop jumpseating. It's estimated that 50% of US airline pilots still commute, and the issues with fatigue will still remain. If you want to address fatigue issues address them directly by writing rules to mandate proper rest prior to operating.



The rest of the world has proven you don't need a university degree, you don't need 5000hrs, you don't need instructor time, you don't need to be 30 to be worthy of sitting in the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. Plenty of first class airlines putting early twenties, non-university educated, well selected and trained individuals into those seats. No evidence "Merika" has the world's best practice.
we just get paid more, which was the initial query. I have to go put fuel in my boat now. Twin Yamahas can burn some fuel. Thanks for proving you can fly jets for less $$$ and less qualifications. Well done.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 06:17
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I don't think there are too many places in the world where pilots commute 5hrs of flight time for their shot haul job. For instance Ryanair has over 80 pilots bases, Delta has 9. Much more opportunity to be based closer to your home.
And the improvement in pay didn't stop jumpseating. It's estimated that 50% of US airline pilots still commute, and the issues with fatigue will still remain. If you want to address fatigue issues address them directly by writing rules to mandate proper rest prior to operating.



The rest of the world has proven you don't need a university degree, you don't need 5000hrs, you don't need instructor time, you don't need to be 30 to be worthy of sitting in the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. Plenty of first class airlines putting early twenties, non-university educated, well selected and trained individuals into those seats. No evidence "Merika" has the world's best practice.
first class? 5 star? What is their salary? More than half of all aircraft and airline pilots are American. We set the bar. If u get paid less, youíre lowering it.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 06:37
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Originally Posted by Climb150 View Post
Most airlines have a commuter policy now where you get a certain amout of hotel stays per month to use the night before or the night after your trip finishes. Many airlines also give you a few "no show" days a year if thr flights you commute on are full..
I must say that sounds remarkably enlightened and employee friendly, sadly I canít see either policy being introduced at a certain Big Airline in Europe anytime soon.....
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 06:44
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'Murica, hell yeah...
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 09:09
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Originally Posted by porkflyer View Post
Thank you. I agree 100%. Imagine a scenario of a captain incapacitation in rough weather at night with a 250 hours " pilot" having to bring the plane safely on ground. Few will manage ,from my experience. The risk is unacceptable...and it will happen one day or another.
I think that 250 hour pilot should still have safety pilot on board but I know what you mean. However they always told us that the most important thing to success is to convince instructor that we can bring the aircraft back in case something bad happens. And I know there were people fired exactly for this reason.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 09:10
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post


we just get paid more, which was the initial query. I have to go put fuel in my boat now. Twin Yamahas can burn some fuel. Thanks for proving you can fly jets for less $$$ and less qualifications. Well done.
Luckily you also have those shining examples of the great Murican system like the Atlas 767 FO I mentioned before. If guys like him slip through, I guarantee you there are a whole bunch more flying around, not having half a clue about how useless they are despite their awesome university degree . And thanks for showing you have at least one pilot with a very shitty attitude .
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 09:36
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Lets face it, planes are also a LOT easier to fly these days. Compare a 1960s Trident or DC9 to todays Airbus with GPS, Alpha-Floor, ILS, HUD, EFIS,ACARS,GPWS, weather radar,laptops etc etc.

A lot of effort has been put in by manufacturers to make aircraft much more foolproof and to try and learn from each and every incident.

G
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 10:05
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I would hope that a below average 1500hr pilot has a lot more ability than a below average 250hr pilot. At 250hrs you are like wet paint on a wall, and are generally clinging on for bare life against the forces of gravity. At 1500hrs that paint has hopefully had a few fresh coats and set. The paying passengers have a right to feel safe in there seats. Reducing the skill level of new pilots because of the increased reliability of aircraft and the ever increasing push for profits from airlines is not acceptable. There are many many 250 hr pilots out there who would be in a whole world of trouble if the old git in the LHS decided to expire one day.

You dont need a degree to fly an aircraft, you require a specific skill set that isnít necessarily met by a degree.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 11:45
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Originally Posted by felixthecat View Post
I would hope that a below average 1500hr pilot has a lot more ability than a below average 250hr pilot. At 250hrs you are like wet paint on a wall, and are generally clinging on for bare life against the forces of gravity. At 1500hrs that paint has hopefully had a few fresh coats and set. The paying passengers have a right to feel safe in there seats. Reducing the skill level of new pilots because of the increased reliability of aircraft and the ever increasing push for profits from airlines is not acceptable. There are many many 250 hr pilots out there who would be in a whole world of trouble if the old git in the LHS decided to expire one day.

You dont need a degree to fly an aircraft, you require a specific skill set that isnít necessarily met by a degree.
Agreed on all but I would say that I would thas make at least the ATPL theory much harder. The level of ignorance is sometime appalling and a degree would sure help give a lift back to this profession which is becoming ingulfed by weak and therefore prone to accept the unacceptable " pilots" easy to black mail. EASA should do something about ASAP or just disappear.
​​​​​Not long ago I remember asking my FO what phoen was ..answer? An hair dyer...and he was not jocking.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 12:31
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I flew two days back to back in the same conditions to the same destination. On the first day a MPL cadet on his first day after line check. The second day an FO with thousands of hours turbo prop time and also just released from line training on the airbus. The MPL guy was miles better in every aspect, SAW hand flying ops and tech knowledge. If I had passed out in flight I would have been far happier been with the first guy than the second.

I usually find the people who complain most about low hour cadets is the people who have never flown with them or got a chip on their shoulder because they never got straight on to your middle weight jet.

Letís face it a more structured sim training schedule taught for that specific jet is far more beneficial than teaching some else straight and level in a c150 for 1500 hrs.

P.s No I wasnít a 200hr cadet nor a 1500hr Ďsky godí.


Last edited by Mooneyboy; 27th Dec 2019 at 12:47.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 13:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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And what exactly does the 1500 hours on some 20 ton cessna without a yaw damper, VNAV or a decent fms teach you about flying a real jet in a real environment? Nothing. You learn while you do it. Good instruction and capable captains make even the youngest first officers into capable pilots. You need to start somewhere for sure, but why start on a turboprop that has nothing to do with a jet when you can just as well learn on a 737 or an A320
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:15
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Yeah, right! Letís make those 250 hours wonders Captains immediately. Judging from the responses on this thread they know it all and can fly better than us, merely mortals with several thousand of hours of experience...

As for the 1500 hrs in a Cessna - it has no VNAV and autopilot and that exactly makes it a more valuable experience, than sitting in an RHS of an A320 watching ďmanagedĒ modes doing their thing...

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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:33
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Err Sidestick_n_Rudder, it's not black and white. While a 250 hours pilot is just a snowflake, a SEP instructor with 1500 hours in the pattern isn't better either. It's all about the quality of training, aptitude, attitude and quality of flying.
​​​​​The 1500 hours requirement in the US was aknee jerk reaction and the fact you can get out with less hours only because you have a degree is laughable.

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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:33
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GreenBook View Post
And what exactly does the 1500 hours on some 20 ton cessna without a yaw damper, VNAV or a decent fms teach you about flying a real jet in a real environment? Nothing. You learn while you do it. Good instruction and capable captains make even the youngest first officers into capable pilots. You need to start somewhere for sure, but why start on a turboprop that has nothing to do with a jet when you can just as well learn on a 737 or an A320
Many hours in a small plane can teach you how to fly. These are all machines with wings and the 4 forces, but crews seem to forget that. There are several recent accidents where crews spend time watching screens while the plane slowly departs from controlled flight.

i flew gliders, crop dusters, banner tow, single pilot freight, aerobatics... all in the first 1500 hours. I think I use the skills learned in those first 1500 hours every time I fly. The military does a great job teaching student to be qualified with low hours. The multi crew training doesnít put you in many manual modes at the edge of the envelope, and there have been incidents where that lack of skill shows. Pilots are great programmers today, but start removing paths and lines and automation and the proficient skill set is diminished. Itís expensive to train to the degree that weíd all like. I have friends at Lufthansa who fondly remember starting out in gliders as part of their program. They believe itís made them better pilots.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:36
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Originally Posted by cessnaxpilot View Post


i flew gliders, crop dusters, banner tow, single pilot freight, aerobatics...
And that's quality flying in my opinion, not the pattern. Especially gliders and single pilot night freight ops - we do that with airliners in Europe though.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:38
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Originally Posted by Sidestick_n_Rudder View Post
Yeah, right! Letís make those 250 hours wonders Captains immediately. Judging from the responses on this thread they know it all and can fly better than us, merely mortals with several thousand of hours of experience...

As for the 1500 hrs in a Cessna - it has no VNAV and autopilot and that exactly makes it a more valuable experience, than sitting in an RHS of an A320 watching ďmanagedĒ modes doing their thing...

Some people seem to be very upset that they work for companies that don't allow handflying on a 737 or an A320. I have those 'several thousands' of hours as well and I spent none of them on a tiny plane. Still for some unknown reason I can actually fly because I was taught by great people in a company that not only allows but encourages manual flight without any automation.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:39
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Originally Posted by Sidestick_n_Rudder View Post
Yeah, right! Letís make those 250 hours wonders Captains immediately. Judging from the responses on this thread they know it all and can fly better than us, merely mortals with several thousand of hours of experience...

As for the 1500 hrs in a Cessna - it has no VNAV and autopilot and that exactly makes it a more valuable experience, than sitting in an RHS of an A320 watching ďmanagedĒ modes doing their thing...


You exaggerate what we are saying, exactly as you exaggerate the value of those 1500hrs. All that some of us are pointing out is that being a good pilot is not a matter of getting those 1500hrs. It is a matter of proper training, proper attitude and aptitude. If you get someone out of flight school with those qualities, they can be miles better than the guy that comes from 1500hrs or more of flying around on whatever else type of plane, picking up (bad) habits that don't work on the type you fly and who is slow to adapt.

You obviously haven't had the luck to come across some of the good new pilots. I have. No one is suggesting they are 250hr wonders. But they come into the plane, do things by the book, pick up practical experience quick, ask the right questions etc. Hell, most of them will take any chance to hand fly, especially with a nudge of encouragement to do so. It is too easy to discount fresh pilots because they do not have 1500hrs. You would rob yourself of a good amount of pilots sitting next to you in the cockpit, who have a solid foundation and aptitude for airline flying and will only get better with experience.

Spoken as a mere mortal in the LHS with several thousand hours of experience (non automated turboprop hours included)...

In my opinion a 1500hr wall would perhaps be a short term improvement, but exactly those kids you guys hate will be the ones that will climb over the wall. Those kids with more money than ability.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 14:41
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Originally Posted by cessnaxpilot View Post


Many hours in a small plane can teach you how to fly. These are all machines with wings and the 4 forces, but crews seem to forget that. There are several recent accidents where crews spend time watching screens while the plane slowly departs from controlled flight.

i flew gliders, crop dusters, banner tow, single pilot freight, aerobatics... all in the first 1500 hours. I think I use the skills learned in those first 1500 hours every time I fly. The military does a great job teaching student to be qualified with low hours. The multi crew training doesnít put you in many manual modes at the edge of the envelope, and there have been incidents where that lack of skill shows. Pilots are great programmers today, but start removing paths and lines and automation and the proficient skill set is diminished. Itís expensive to train to the degree that weíd all like. I have friends at Lufthansa who fondly remember starting out in gliders as part of their program. They believe itís made them better pilots.
Well you make a good point about deviations from controlled flight, however, I think most people would agree that the overall loss of flying skills during an airline career has nothing to do with background and personal 'level', but more with company culture and what they do and do not allow. If you watch a few Justplanes on youtube and you see a crew autolanding an aircraft in LHR in cavok and 0 wind, then I think you could have spent 15.000 hours in a crop duster, you still will lose everything your learn. This is a culture problem, not a training or personal experience level problem.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 15:00
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While I agree that experience is not the only metric

Every "good" pilot gets better with experience
Every "Bad" pilot gets a little less bad with experience


On top of that It is always better to scare yourself shitless on your own in a little Cessna and swear to never do that again than to do the same as a captain in a 737.

There are capts in Europe that have never diverted, never done a GA, never have had to use the QRH in flight. They are flying with guys that are trailing twelve miles behind the tail. The only reason nothing happens is because these are extremely reliable machines
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