Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Euro market pilot saturation

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Euro market pilot saturation

Old 26th Dec 2019, 11:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 292
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Intrance
The problem here would be that in most of Europe, there isn't a GA scene or market for pilots to build up to those 1500hrs. And besides that, you always have to remember that experience does not equal safety. I've flown with enough experienced idiots and inexperienced good pilots to say that that holds up. In my opinion, that 1500hr limit is mostly just an arbitrary hoop to jump through, and the focus should be more on filtering out the idiots during training by regulating flight schools in better ways and simply banning pay to fly programs in any form. That would benefit everyone; less pilots get dumped into the job market, average quality of pilots goes up.

I've flown with FO's fresh out of flight school on their first job who have been absolutely awesome and would be a welcome addition in any airline, but who would run into an arbitrary wall if there were to be a 1500hr rule over here as well.
Intrance sums it up nicely. Don't forget that the MPL (like it or not but here to stay) is based entirely on flight school direct to airline with about 100 hours on real aeroplanes.

Good aptitude, attitude and training make for good pilots. Flown with former pay to fly guys who couldn't, spoiled ab initios who's daddys were senior captains and think they have it sorted from day 1 as there are slowing to 180kts and calling for flaps at 25nm or idiots who won't get off their phones to do some work. Also flew with some excellent newbies, some of which had had to struggle up from non traditional backgrounds and who got there through hard work, determination and a love of flying. Takes all sorts but I know who I respect.

Consol is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 11:48
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: malta
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just a quick question, if there would be a rule change requiring 1500 hrs before flying the "big jets", what would be a big jet what would they fly before that? Good luck finding a job where you fly something other than a jet in Europe (or Asia/Middle East for that matter) and would that not just move the problem by obliterating the T&C at the rather rare job opportunities where they fly something other than a "big jet"?

Good selection and training is where good pilots are found and formed, not on GA fields with a banner on their ass. (which does not say they can't be good pilots, just that it does not solely determine it).
the_stranger is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 12:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have flown out of the EU with European cadets and their skills and attitude sucks big time (go ahead and bash me, it is the honest truth). The worst of this is that they are not even aware of it. They think it is the usual in a cockpit not to follow the chain of command, argue for the sake of it, bend the SOP's, follow "what this Captain told me" instead of reading the manual, etc. It is not really their fault since they have been led to believe that it is how things are done. For them, I am the dinosaur.
Which airline was this? My guess it is one that has not the best T&C’s and does not have the option to implement a proper screening or even does P2F.
I mean, I have also flown with American and Australian pilots who had lots of hours but were pretty useless. Nationality has very little to do with it. When the market went upwards again, the good ones went to decent companies in the EU or US and the bad ones stayed or went to the second tier companies.
SaulGoodman is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 13:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I can't wait to reach 1500 hours, I will become an ace overnight.
Banana Joe is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 16:40
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: animal farm
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is shortage of flight instructor. Many schools are hiring. That is the normal path. Being a flight instructor builds an excellent background. You learn a lot about yourself and how to deal with others.
The very few good pilots I had the chance to fly with had a background in flight instructing or banner towing. I regularly fly with dudes that cannot coordinate feet hands and brain and with 1000+ hours on type are unable to tame a 10 kts crosswind.
Not everybody can be a pilot.. Daddy's mmeu cannot buy everything.
porkflyer is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 16:43
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: animal farm
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Banana Joe
I can't wait to reach 1500 hours, I will become an ace overnight.
1500 on autopilot will never make you a pilot my friend .
porkflyer is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 17:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Historically, I believe the way to what was a BCPL plus ATPL Theory was either 700 hours of flying time, or 200 hours on an "approved course". The approved courses were generally of the integrated variety and funded largely by airlines, which only funded trainees when they anticipated that they would need pilots. When there was a downturn and airlines went out of business or pilots on the approved courses were not hired by the airline that had sponsored them due to the economic situation, there were some surpluses but there wasn't the permanent surplus situation of today. Banks, to the best of my knowledge, were much more cautious about lending, so gambling a house on flight training wasn't the option it is today.

Personally, I think if pilots were only allowed to sit the ATPL exams after passing an aptitude test (with only a limited numbers of attempts allowed, or at least a few years between attempts), that would thin out the numbers considerably. However, it would have to be a Europe-wide thing, otherwise airlines would use regulatory/labour arbitrage to get around it.

I'm surprised BALPA didn't kick up a large fuss when the 700 hour rule was removed and anyone could enter the market after 200 hours, surely it was obvious that there would be a massive supply of low-houred pilots who would undermine the T&Cs right across the profession? It is, after all, basic supply and demand.
Chris the Robot is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 17:36
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Check Airman
Shortly after the ATP rule kicked in here, regional jet salaries increased significantly, as well as the introduction of significant signing bonuses. Part was the increased hiring from major airlines (sucking up the CA’s and senior FO’s), part was the shortage of 250hr guys willing to do anything to fly a jet. Some of them have just become 1500hr guys willing to do anything, but that’s something else. To give you an idea of the size of the increase, at my first airline, the starting salary for a first officer has gone up 127% (that’s not a typo, it’s more than doubled) in 3-4 years. T&C have improved as well. Back when I was there, the management laughed at the idea of paying a FO that much. “We’d love to, but can’t possibly afford it” they said. As of today, they’re still doing business, and say they’re profitable, so I guess they found the money somehow.
Since I joined my British airline 7 years ago, the starting salary has gone up 240% from the pittance it was back then so it isn't exclusively an American phenomenon.
giggitygiggity is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 18:16
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: usa
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by porkflyer
1500 on autopilot will never make you a pilot my friend .
​​​​​​..Thank you for this comment..

​​​​​​.. This is what the difference is between 250-1500hr guys.. Handflying skills, visual approaches and landings in conditions other than good, as an example..

..The 250hr pilots usually know the procedures and the autopilot quite well, but just cannot handle the above..(Nothing against the low time guys, we have all been there)..This is a fact, things I have seen during my 30yrs in Aviation..There is a difference..

Fly safe,
B-757
B-757 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 18:24
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: animal farm
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by B-757
​​​​​​..Thank you for this comment..

​​​​​​.. This is what the difference is between 250-1500hr guys.. Handflying skills, visual approaches and landings in conditions other than good, as an example..

..The 250hr pilots usually know the procedures and the autopilot quite well, but just cannot handle the above..(Nothing against the low time guys, we have all been there)..This is a fact, things I have seen during my 30yrs in Aviation..There is a difference..

Fly safe,
B-757
Thank you. I agree 100%. Imagine a scenario of a captain incapacitation in rough weather at night with a 250 hours " pilot" having to bring the plane safely on ground. Few will manage ,from my experience. The risk is unacceptable...and it will happen one day or another.
porkflyer is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 18:54
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by marchino61
Isn't disclosure mandatory under the Pilot Records Improvement Act?
sort of. He didn’t disclose that he had worked there, therefore atlas third party background check outfit didn’t request records from the 2 airlines. As for the 1500 hours, experience counts. I don’t know any banner towers. I know instructors. Flight instructing teaches leadership, CRM, stick and rudder skills, decision making and work ethic. Sorry that Europe regulated and taxed itself into a GA black hole. Too bad.
4runner is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 19:41
  #32 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow, i did not expect so many comments. Actually i have nothing against fresh out of school pilots , we've all been there so don't get me wrong. I wrote something about safety but it was purely assumption which is clearly proven to be wrong. My concern is mainly with T&C and European aviation that is definitely going god knows where. Lets assume regulations won't change and low-cost airlines will expand, multiply and mutate(like Lauda) and eventually bigger legacy carries will struggle hard to compete and either go belly up or transform to another low cost airline with a proud name and huge debt. As i pilot i prefer not moving to Asia and rather have a decent life in Europe and get an average salary. People in Europe are relatively rich and can spare us some change on top of the ticket price. Otherwise we all end up senior captains sharing dorm bunks and frozen pizza.
Luray is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 19:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cessnapete
I think you will find lack of airmanship and training did play a part in the Max accidents.
Especially the ET incident.
Well before MCAS was active the pilots distracted by the faulty A/A probe causing the Stick Shaker, left full takeoff power set throughout the flight until ground contact. Not good Airmanship.
No, I don't work for Boeing.
Indeed. It‘s not black or white here. Boeing‘s MCAS is a thorough, inexcusable and dangerous screwup, but better maintenance and airmanship might have saved the day against all odds.
AviatorDave is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 20:34
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by porkflyer
Thank you. I agree 100%. Imagine a scenario of a captain incapacitation in rough weather at night with a 250 hours " pilot" having to bring the plane safely on ground. Few will manage ,from my experience. The risk is unacceptable...and it will happen one day or another.
Dude, we fly airliners, not the space shuttle! Having had the benefit of a military flying training I am quite happy with my hand flying skills. I am also very happy with that of my new colleagues. We fly large, slow and largely stable 60 ton jets from 3000m runways to another 3000m runway with some
sort of approach. We are not asking people to lead formations of aircraft at low level into enemy territory!
UberPilot is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 21:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Luray
Wow, i did not expect so many comments. Actually i have nothing against fresh out of school pilots , we've all been there so don't get me wrong. I wrote something about safety but it was purely assumption which is clearly proven to be wrong. My concern is mainly with T&C and European aviation that is definitely going god knows where. Lets assume regulations won't change and low-cost airlines will expand, multiply and mutate(like Lauda) and eventually bigger legacy carries will struggle hard to compete and either go belly up or transform to another low cost airline with a proud name and huge debt. As i pilot i prefer not moving to Asia and rather have a decent life in Europe and get an average salary. People in Europe are relatively rich and can spare us some change on top of the ticket price. Otherwise we all end up senior captains sharing dorm bunks and frozen pizza.
i believe the market saturation has to do with the lower standards and experience levels for pilots. For example, I’ve flown with 20 year old 737 pilots in Africa that had 750 hours total, 500 in the 73. They obviously did not have a degree. These individuals did not have to go through the gauntlet and many stages that the same aviator would have achieved, had they been in the US. They paid for flight school, paid to train and fly the 737, and now find themselves employed. These individuals did not have to “earn” their wings or types. They bought them. To be in the right seat of a 73 in the US, you would most likely have a 4 year degree as 72% of american ATP holders have and all major airlines require. You would have gotten your ratings in the military, during college or shortly thereafter. You would have then spent several years accruing experience(hours), trying not to get killed by student pilots, yelled at by career flight school management and getting ready for your first airline interview. By this stage, 65% of the people who started flight school wirh you are no longer pursuing aviation(they couldn’t hack it). You interview with several regional airlines and hopefully get hired. Now, the airline is paying you a salary and for your training. They expect results. Now you learn how to study all over again and the pressure is on. Now you hopefully get signed off on line training after 25-50 hours. Once again, they expect results, they’re paying for it. By this time, you’ve lost another 5-20% of the people you started with. After a few years of 5 leg days, you get a Captain slot. Once again, they expect results. You will lose another 5-20% in upgrade. Now, you’ve got to be an instructor all over again as you’re flying with green FO’s once you’re off high mins. Now you’ve got 1000 in the left seat and are updating your CV(resume) and studying all over again for interviews. Maybe you get hired at United or Jet Blue. Restart initial training. Once again, they expect results. Now, you’re a seasoned veteran, a college graduate, an experienced aviator, at least 28-30 and worthy of the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus and the associated salary and responsibility. Merika....
4runner is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 21:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: USVI
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wont be too long before you can get the 1500 hrs on MSFT Flight Sim!
turbidus is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 22:37
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Doing 4 sector days flying for a loco will soon get you the experience! I was doing visuals NDBs VORs, winter ops during my time.
A320baby is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2019, 23:30
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123


Disagree with the flight instructor route being a good route to airline flying. Had a guy, 8 years as an instructor recently wash out in line training having had 3 chances at final line check. He could handle the aircraft fine but he was shocking (down right dangerous from what I heard) in airline world. I have flown with some good guys who were ex instructors but they have all said they feel they didn’t learn much from it.
I guess it depends on what you do as an instructor. If all you do is teach private and commercial students, that gives you one skill set. Start teaching multi, and particularly instrument, and your skill set broadens significantly.

I went the CFI route, but I know that’s not necessarily the absolute best route. The folks who did the 135 stuff flying in the weather every night in light pistons and turboprops have slightly different competencies and comfort zones than I would have had as a CFI.

Others still, got “lucky” and landed a job in a small corporate jet pretty early on. I’d imagine they have the easiest transition to airline flying, but I don’t know how their transition from props to corporate jet went.

At some point, you’ll have to make the big jump. I guess the quality of your flight experience (not flight time) before that point will dictate how well you do.
Check Airman is online now  
Old 27th Dec 2019, 00:07
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 27 Likes on 8 Posts
Right for everyone who missed it. US Govt bought in the 1500 hour rule to lift wages and conditions. This in turn would improve safety. One of the big factors in the Colgan crash was fatigue. The FO had jumpseated from Seattle (4.5 hour flight) the night before and slept in the crew room because she couldn't afford to live in base. The pay was so bad she lived at home.

To everyone who says 250 hour cadets are gods thats great but there are also not so great 250 hour cadets too. Same good/not so good FO, CAPT, Check airman also

The result of 1500 min in the USA was a dramatic increase in wages and conditions which will have a huge effect on fatige levels and moral in general.

Didnt a UK CPL require 600 hours once?
Climb150 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2019, 02:59
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 2,223
Received 280 Likes on 154 Posts
Originally Posted by Climb150
Right for everyone who missed it. US Govt bought in the 1500 hour rule to lift wages and conditions. This in turn would improve safety. One of the big factors in the Colgan crash was fatigue. The FO had jumpseated from Seattle (4.5 hour flight) the night before and slept in the crew room because she couldn't afford to live in base. The pay was so bad she lived at home.
I don't think there are too many places in the world where pilots commute 5hrs of flight time for their shot haul job. For instance Ryanair has over 80 pilots bases, Delta has 9. Much more opportunity to be based closer to your home.
And the improvement in pay didn't stop jumpseating. It's estimated that 50% of US airline pilots still commute, and the issues with fatigue will still remain. If you want to address fatigue issues address them directly by writing rules to mandate proper rest prior to operating.

Originally Posted by 4runner
Now, you’re a seasoned veteran, a college graduate, an experienced aviator, at least 28-30 and worthy of the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus and the associated salary and responsibility. Merika....
The rest of the world has proven you don't need a university degree, you don't need 5000hrs, you don't need instructor time, you don't need to be 30 to be worthy of sitting in the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. Plenty of first class airlines putting early twenties, non-university educated, well selected and trained individuals into those seats. No evidence "Merika" has the world's best practice.
dr dre is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.