Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Euro market pilot saturation

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Euro market pilot saturation

Old 29th Dec 2019, 15:55
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt
What if a 25,000 hrs airline pilot told him?
Thank you. Or maybe a 25,000 hr Captain, who at one point had 300 hrs (at a regional airline), or 1,000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs, or 25,000 hrs, made the observation?

My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.

^ That is him.

This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.

We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 04:25
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Orbit
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi
I find myself at least partially agreeing with everyone. The focus seems to be on FO experience levels, but the scariest thing for me, (particular to countries outside the US) is guys going from flying school to command of large airliners in 5 years of frankly very narrow experience, SOP parroting, ILS to ILS, groundhog day type flying in the RHS, with very few day to day airmanship or handling challenges. And the misplaced arrogance/complacency that sometimes goes with it as they approach their command. As has been mentioned, the shiny veneer of young Captain "Know it all", can peel away very fast when circumstances don't stick to their rehearsed script.
Spot on.Time for change
Yury Gagarin is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 05:15
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by misd-agin
Thank you. Or maybe a 25,000 hr Captain, who at one point had 300 hrs (at a regional airline), or 1,000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs, or 25,000 hrs, made the observation?

My post - Listening to a U.S. golfer talk on a podcast yesterday. He has a light airplane. He was asked about his scariest event. At the time he had about 300 hrs TT. He mentions that he now has about 1,000 hrs and wouldn't do what happened at 300 hrs occur now that he has 1,000 hrs.

^ That is him.

This was my comment - That can't be taught in a simulator. There is value in experience, especially when you're starting out. In those 700 hrs he learned more about being a pilot than a airline pilot would going from 20,000 hrs to 25,000 hrs if they didn't switch aircraft.

We just don't learn that much after 500-1000 hrs in a new airplane. IMO. I've only done that about about 10x over my career. There's a big learning curve, regardless of your previous experience, for about 100 hrs. After 500 hrs you've seen most of the issues. After 1,000 hrs you'd be a lot more challenged if you went to a new aircraft and started the cycle over again.
you do as an instructor, typically. You start with commercial or private students in single engine, then graduate to multi engine students and complex aircraft students. I donít have 25000 hours, Iíve 1/3 that. I learn something new about the airplane, myself, management, people skills and flying everyday.
4runner is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 08:32
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Europe
Age: 31
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by back to Boeing


whilst not agreeing or disagreeing with your post there is absolutely zero evidence (real studied accident and incident data as opposed to anecdotal) to back up your statement. And like others I have flown with ďcadetsĒ with virtually no experience that can put many oldies to shame and I have flown with many experienced pilots that I wouldnít trust to be in charge of a TV remote control, and everything in between.
Completely agree. I also think that pilot saturation generated by the 250hr EU style hiring has meant that airlines can pick better candidates.

1500 hrs in a 172 is a waste in terms of commercial jet/prop flying.
WestonFlyer is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 09:31
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 704
Received 160 Likes on 75 Posts
Why is everyone using the banner towing and flying around the circuit as the example of basic experience. It plainly isn’t. Most of us cut our teeth single pilot IFR flying night freight in PA-31s with no radar and dodgy autopilots. No one is a hero.. all of us did this, it was just a job which paid our bills. And before that, we were bush flying in DHC2, C206 and C210s. No magenta line anywhere. Who even knew magenta was a colour in those days?

So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.

The path to every airline managers wet dream is being paved by new technologies, automation and a very enhanced ATC system. You have to try really, really hard to crash these days. What this boils down to is that an experienced pilot will no longer be required. CPDLC is the thus edge of the wedge. not long before it’s next generation drives your autopilot directly. All that’s needed is just one guy up front who can read a manual and in extremis bang it down on a runway somewhere in case all that automation fails. 100 hours total time, all of which obtained in the sim will suffice. T&Cs will continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. A brave new world indeed.
lucille is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 09:54
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A 200-hr pilot is faster to create than a 1500-hr pilot, and the difficult process of getting 1500hrs when you're not hired directly into a Ryanair or Easyjet definitely culls many of the wannabes. Consequently, less pilots on the market, better Ts and C's for all, and those that do make it are more experienced, have been around more experience, have less entitled attitudes, and are liable to make more informed choices. Good all round.
Diana777 is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 13:17
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ZKPY
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by iggy
Previous poster said Command after 5 years is an example of being unprepared. I am saying it can be much worse than that.
Any pilot jumping on the left seat of a medium jet with that experience is ignorant about the risk. Since neither the airlines nor the pilots are being able to behave themselves in this regard I see urgent to put measures in place to stop this madness, being those measures total time, number of recurrent checks, years as commercial pilot...

Of course, those pilots taking the Command so soon are doing it for less salary or paying for it. I have rejected the Command several times because the salary offered was even less than FO.
This is a question that should be assessed from pilot to pilot. Say whatever you want. There ARE guys/girls who are mature and skilled enough to make the left seat after five years. Airmanship doesn't necessarily have to go hand in hand with experience. A lot of accidents (SWR111 with two highly experienced TREs onboard, to just name one) will prove your theory wrong.
lansen is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 13:46
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sometimes it's the very experienced pilots that will get you into bad scenarios! Although the argument that more experience is better than low experience is usually correct, it can just as easily be the other way around!

I've flown with both extremes and learned my lesson, always double check and don't fully trust anyone. Experience is great when there is time to deal with a situation where the bigger outside the box approach is needed, most situations I've ever had to deal with, the minimum experience pilots have been able to handle it with no problem. It really depends on the individual and their own capabilities.
flyingmed is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 14:39
  #109 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 52
Received 11 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by lucille
So back to the topic. Technically, a fully autonomous airliner can be built tomorrow. Pilots really are not needed anymore. Getting the paying passenger to accept this is the major hurdle facing airlines.
Hold your horses Captain Our modern computers do look sleek and capable of doing wonders but in reality they are nothing but a bunch of Nand gates on steroids not very different from Apollo era machines. If you take the best ever super computer of 2019 and try to emulate natural behavior of a living thing , its gonna go nowhere further than retarded baby mouse intellect. We have reached the end of technological progress in its present form and computers are not getting any smarter, just a bit faster. So don't worry , dark era of cyborg pilots has been postponed for another future +50 years after ww3.
Luray is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 15:43
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by GreenBook
Well you make a good point about deviations from controlled flight, however, I think most people would agree that the overall loss of flying skills during an airline career has nothing to do with background and personal 'level', but more with company culture and what they do and do not allow. If you watch a few Justplanes on youtube and you see a crew autolanding an aircraft in LHR in cavok and 0 wind, then I think you could have spent 15.000 hours in a crop duster, you still will lose everything your learn. This is a culture problem, not a training or personal experience level problem.
yes... you do need to stay engaged, but what if you never had the stick and rudder skill to begin with? MCC does a lot to train the airline style flying, but not really a lot of challenging stick and rudder skills to file away as “lesson learned.” It seems we’ve seen pilots watch the VNAV or V/S not give them what they expect, but in the end, why didn’t they feel comfortable to just turn everything off and intervene? Now days we spend so much time teaching the FMS that pilots in a bind tend to continue to program the box and the flying pilot just watches. It’s poor airmanship, and it’s an industry problem on both sides of the Atlantic. But I hear you... It was a lot easier to stay proficient when flying the DC-9 than the Airbus. I enjoy the occasional visual pattern with AP, FD, and AT off, but I don’t think that most people ever do that (or maybe it’s prohibited by their company).

but the idea of turning out a lot of low time candidates, safe or not, will not do anything to help the pilots bargaining position for better contracts. You become easy to replace.

Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 30th Dec 2019 at 15:56.
cessnaxpilot is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2019, 23:50
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
[QUOTE=PaulH1;10649552]
The biz jet world does give safe harbor to some really appalling aviators, or some very strange people who would not otherwise survive in a more standardised airline world. I emphasise "some"!
/QUOTE]

Having been in the training role in the Biz Jet world for some time I can say that there are also "some" appalling operators coming from the Airline world!
There are major differences between the skills required for Airline and Biz Jet operations and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
For instance: operating into an airfield outside controlled airspace where a 'cloud break' from a military radar followed by a VFR leg to land on a limited length runway is required. Or flying into White Plains (New York) or Opa Locka (Miami) where a radar to visual approach is the norm. Good lookout and Airmanship skills are a must. I have flown with ex-airline pilots who did not have a clue. Some were very good though.

Yeah Opa Locka transition to visual is pure Top Gun....thereís a power like somewhere and a big lake. You should probably paint a big Okochobee sticker on the side of your plane for acknowledgement of your ace skills.
4runner is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 01:25
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A plentiful supply of low hour, self funded, cadet 'style' pilots is the natural future for airlines filling the RHS. Most will be loaded with debt, not guaranteed a job after training and easily replaceable during their early years. You essentially have a captive workforce and can set pay scales at a happy medium that still sees people lining up for a shot. It's great for getting into an airline job with few hours, but it will continue to drag the general terms and conditions of the industry down to very basic wages, especially as hiring slows down. But hey, eventually that better job will present itself yeh?
Jeffory is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 04:07
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Location
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I just want to share my little perspective about experience prior flying big jets. I did over 2300 hours of single piston and single turbine flying before piloting twin turbines, and eventually moving into big jets. My first job on a big jet was when I had 3500 hours.

I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.

You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.

I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.

Last edited by Can737; 31st Dec 2019 at 04:22.
Can737 is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 04:33
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 952
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Well said Can737. Many people have no idea how challenging flying small planes are in some countries. People always mention military as difficult which is certainly the case but bush flying is in some places, actually more challenging.



Last edited by pineteam; 31st Dec 2019 at 05:26. Reason: Typo
pineteam is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 08:50
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: here
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Can737
I just want to share my little perspective about experience prior flying big jets. I did over 2300 hours of single piston and single turbine flying before piloting twin turbines, and eventually moving into big jets. My first job on a big jet was when I had 3500 hours.

I had the chance to instruct, cropdust, do aerial survey, medevac, overall fly multiple airplanes and live all kind of funny and not so funny experiences. When I was flying turboprops (no autopilots installed) we could overshoot sometimes couple times a week, we were sometimes unable to hold altitude because of icing and had to make difficult decisions about alternates. I also lived two unrealiable airspeed, loss of pressurization, bleed dutct issue, one of the unrealiable airspeed was on the twin turboprops right after takeoff at 11 pm, darknight, snowstorm, the whole package.

You can make fun of the banner guy in a c172, but the first time I lost my airspeed, it was right after takeoff in a c172, right out of a grass strip, (an insect in the pitot) I had 400 hours, it was a really hot day, 3 fat tourists inside the airplane, believe it or not, until you live it, seeing that IAS go down slowly but surely, you won't know how you will react, the more experience you get the best it is.

I have been type rated on 3 big jets so far, life is good on those big aircraft, but you don't learn about flying in there, and I don't regret a single second about the experience I gained flying smaller aircraft.
Same here. I cannot agree more. Cadet should be only ab nitio screened and funded by established airlines..I regularly fly with P2F dudes that payed their way in the cockpit with minimal time and to the exclusive advantage of dodgy enlarged EU ATOs. They are a disaster, zero knowledge, zero experience zero handling. Try take away the AP and FD and have a laugh!!!

Last edited by cucuotto; 2nd Jan 2020 at 06:05.
cucuotto is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 09:04
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ??-ask crewing
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Or a crosswind landing on limits! (I'm not sure if it's laugh or cry).

Although for the FO, max x-wind was a non assessed exercise in the sim, the copilot had 4 attempts, completely lost control, and crashed on each one - He didn't seem to know what the ailerons were for - smash it on with a mistimed rudder input, ailerons neutral, downwind wheel digs in, upwind wing lifts and barreling across the grass we go/or pod strike/sim freeze. That wasn't the worrying thing - but that he and TRE - just shrugs all round (granted, being unassessed, the TRE couldn't do much else), and with an LPC ticking all the boxes with perfect SOPs - everyone goes home with above average grades, and out he goes to do max cross wind landings with 200 people aboard. Lack of handling skills really doesn't seem to be a barrier these days. But "zero knowledge"? Well I disagree partly on that one, as the wizz-kids are generally savvy enough to know that IS one thing that will get them kicked out on their ear.

Last edited by Sick; 31st Dec 2019 at 09:55.
Sick is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:42
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can737 has hit the nail on the head. I think that many who argue how great low time MCC candidates are must have come through that route. In my first 1000 hours I experienced a broken crankshaft engine failure with a glider on tow, a fire in the cockpit, radio failure, iced over front windows... and so many here just talk about 1000 hours in the pattern.

But the reality is that MCC is here to stay. There will be a steady supply of low time pilots. Pilots jump from job to job to get long haul or wide body or command time, and in the end it does little for the profession as a whole. We will need stronger unified groups with a collective strength of a union. Unfortunately the LCC have mastered how to divide bases and contracts to whipsaw the pilots back and forth.
cessnaxpilot is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:52
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Switzerland
Age: 39
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cessnapete
I think you will find lack of airmanship and training did play a part in the Max accidents.
Especially the ET incident.
Well before MCAS was active the pilots distracted by the faulty A/A probe causing the Stick Shaker, left full takeoff power set throughout the flight until ground contact. Not good Airmanship.
No, I don't work for Boeing.
Cessnapete have you flown a 737?

737ís have a very pronounced pitch/power couple due to the underslung engines and conventional flight controls. If youíre low and have no pitch authority reducing thrust is extremely counter intuitive.

Pilots are being trained in a yoyo maneuver that allows trim authority to be recovered but itís pretty hard to fly.

Polorutz is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 11:02
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Somewhere South
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
[QUOTE=4runner;10650627]
Originally Posted by PaulH1


Yeah Opa Locka transition to visual is pure Top Gun....thereís a power like somewhere and a big lake. You should probably paint a big Okochobee sticker on the side of your plane for acknowledgement of your ace skills.
Great idea! Trouble is finding somewhere to stick it as the side of the aircraft is now full!

Scarcasm aside, my post was not intended to sing my own praises - it was to highlight areas where, in my experience, some airline pilots transitioning to Biz Jet operations have had difficulties.
PaulH1 is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2019, 12:18
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: here
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Removing the checking power to airlines would would do a lot.. It's a great black mailing tool by the way. Let's send a German TRE do checks at an enlarged Eastern EU low co airline ..
I would go further and say that national CAAs should disappear cause in certain countries it's just a pantomime..
cucuotto is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.