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Jet2/FR/TUI

Old 26th Nov 2019, 00:15
  #1 (permalink)  
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Jet2/FR/TUI

Good evening folks,

Hoping someone could offer some information, in their experience. I'm a currently at FO for FR, coming up to the 2500hr mark. Borderline trying to weight up now putting the work in for command or moving on to pastures new, particularly with commands now frozen, creating a back log no doubt. With interviews both at Jet2 and TUI. I'm one of the guys at FR on a contract taking home about 4k a month before expenses, ie parking etc. Is that roughly what one could expect at Jet2? I've heard 4.1k figure mentioned. Absolutely no idea about TUI, I know no one there. Originally from Northern Ireland, FR have a habit of opening bases in the two airports we have, then close them a short time later. Offering no stability, Jet2 offers stability in BFS which is what really appeals to me. I've lived in Northern England for a number of years now but would ultimately like to go home. I've heard the rumours of the folks who leave FR to Jet2 to absolutely detest the roster in particular, is it really bad if you live 15 mins from your crew room? In the summer period would you be flying on your 5 days on, or will there be a few SBYS. The 3 days off monthly, is that based on seniority for example, a weekend during the busier periods?
Also, leaving with Command in mind in the future, is the process still what it was known for? Or has it been streamlined? Also, I've absolutely no idea what skippers are on there in comparison to FR.

I'm sure there's one or two on here who have worked for both! Thanks.
Saulman is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 14:54
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Thats a very similar situation to myself, id be interested to see responses.
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Old 28th Nov 2019, 18:54
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Well to just to be clear, I don't work and never have worked, I mean worked in the real sense of the word for either of these two outfits. So I may in many eyes not be fit to make a judgement and a call.

Firstly, the saying , the grass is greener on the other side, or words to that effect should be considered.

i take it that you guys are not life experienced and by that mean you ain't in your middle fifties. No you are in your twenties. Now we have all been there, and listening to experienced advice is a no no. So with this in mind, stay we you are, get command, get at least 2000 hours plus and then start to consider options if they appear. The world out there, and here, is not such a straightforward place to be living in. Many guys I know have been through the ringer in Avaition, capital A, it can be cruel and can be rewarding, it's a life that some accept as its in their blood. Others see it as a step to make money, no problem with that but please don't regard having hundreds of people's lives in your hands as a right to monetary gain or lifestyle that you want unless you are prepared to be totally professional and take this serious step to command. I have seen so many ex cadets from various outfits who after 2,2.5, 3000 hours think they are fit to command an aircraft who completely fail standards of only a few years ago, Plenty posts in these forums have echoed the need for serious experience for shippers but we all know that airlines have to provide fast track conveyor belt crew.


well my advice for what is worth, stay we you are. Rosters vary as do conditions and companys. Better the devil you know sometimes is best.
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Old 28th Nov 2019, 21:32
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While I'm sure he is well intentioned that ramble above me isn't going to answer your question, so I will give you one. If you want to live in BFS and/or are happy in the north then apply to Jet2. There is plenty of stuff posted in many of the Jet2 threads about salaries etc so I'm not going to go into that but needless to say it is easily competitive with RYR for less work and the management won't treat you like a piece of shit and force you on part time or close your base. The command course is much better now also.

Jet2 will have more aircraft based in MAN soon than Monarch had in their entire airline, the place is on the up and you don't have to deal with any of that seniority nonsense that has been of absolutely no use to BA or TUI in the last few weeks despite how much they cling to it. As for the fixed pattern roster, that depends on how you have structured your life outside work, personally I couldn't think of anything worse, I'll take my 8 or 9 flights a month for 6 months of the year and 2 flights a month for the rest.
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Old 28th Nov 2019, 21:52
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There’s already a thread for this
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Old 28th Nov 2019, 22:30
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
While I'm sure he is well intentioned that ramble above me isn't going to answer your question, so I will give you one. If you want to live in BFS and/or are happy in the north then apply to Jet2. There is plenty of stuff posted in many of the Jet2 threads about salaries etc so I'm not going to go into that but needless to say it is easily competitive with RYR for less work and the management won't treat you like a piece of shit and force you on part time or close your base. The command course is much better now also.

Jet2 will have more aircraft based in MAN soon than Monarch had in their entire airline, the place is on the up and you don't have to deal with any of that seniority nonsense that has been of absolutely no use to BA or TUI in the last few weeks despite how much they cling to it. As for the fixed pattern roster, that depends on how you have structured your life outside work, personally I couldn't think of anything worse, I'll take my 8 or 9 flights a month for 6 months of the year and 2 flights a month for the rest.
And this is where it becomes horses for courses I suppose. I have lived with a variable roster for all my working life (around 21 years) and now Iíve sampled a fixed roster, I could never go back.....

We all have different priorities of course, so itís just a case of choosing what suits you best.
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Old 29th Nov 2019, 11:07
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Completely agree. Luckily everybody is different. Iíve never worked with a fixed roster system myself but after leaving Jet2 have come to realise how unbelievable valuable a stable roster is for me to have a quality of life outside work. Even while I was living within 15 minutes from the airport at the time. With my current outfit Iíve had less roster changes in the last 4 years then I had with Jet2 in a week and sometimes even on a day.

Also on the topic of seniority now Iíve experienced a seniority based system I would prefer never to give up that system. The transparency and stability it provides are invaluable to me.

what might suit one might not suit the other.

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Old 29th Nov 2019, 18:46
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For balance, I had precisely zero roster changes during the summer season at Jet2.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 18:01
  #9 (permalink)  
 
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less roster changes in the last 4 years then I had with Jet2 in a week and sometimes even on a day.
Jumbo - You’ll be pleased to hear that after last years poor stats with regards to roster stability this year has seen a huge improvement, and next year should be even better. We now have some hard rules and we have the ability to decline a significant last minute roster change
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 21:21
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Great to hear!!!
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 19:30
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Originally Posted by rotorwills View Post
Well to just to be clear, I don't work and never have worked, I mean worked in the real sense of the word for either of these two outfits. So I may in many eyes not be fit to make a judgement and a call.

Firstly, the saying , the grass is greener on the other side, or words to that effect should be considered.

i take it that you guys are not life experienced and by that mean you ain't in your middle fifties. No you are in your twenties. Now we have all been there, and listening to experienced advice is a no no. So with this in mind, stay we you are, get command, get at least 2000 hours plus and then start to consider options if they appear. The world out there, and here, is not such a straightforward place to be living in. Many guys I know have been through the ringer in Avaition, capital A, it can be cruel and can be rewarding, it's a life that some accept as its in their blood. Others see it as a step to make money, no problem with that but please don't regard having hundreds of people's lives in your hands as a right to monetary gain or lifestyle that you want unless you are prepared to be totally professional and take this serious step to command. I have seen so many ex cadets from various outfits who after 2,2.5, 3000 hours think they are fit to command an aircraft who completely fail standards of only a few years ago, Plenty posts in these forums have echoed the need for serious experience for shippers but we all know that airlines have to provide fast track conveyor belt crew.


well my advice for what is worth, stay we you are. Rosters vary as do conditions and companys. Better the devil you know sometimes is best.
I would honestly like to ask you have you had any dealings with FR or experience within to give such a direct advise.

I can certainly assure you the grass IS sometimes greener on the other side.

Its not all about the command, and this mindset to think that at 3K youíre due a command is wrong.
In many places there is happiness in the right seat too, once youíre respected and treated right.
Roster is important, but it isnít the major deal in an employment.

I once changed my airline and it was the best ever move I did!


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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:13
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Well if you read my first statement in paragraph one you will see the clear answer to your question you pose. ,

Changing airlines as you say you have done, so I have to accept that you have done this without having to read and understand a post, sarcasm, then you should be able to discern that of course one can make a change for better. I was answering a direct question to a poster who had stated that he wanted advice and had posted his current position. It does not take a genius to figure out jumping from one airline to another can be a precarious event. So most old experienced lags like me I believe offer the same advice to a FO who is in the position he is. The present poor situation with the Max of course has impacts across the industry and may have halted FR command upgrades to lhs, this I am not privy to, but can say that with the normal amount of loss of four stripe bods it can't be long before a good level of opportunities will occur. To jump ship so as to speak to Jet2, given my recent understandings of upgrades, or lack of them, would be a gamble I personally, in that situation would not contemplate.

As we are aware the Max has put various Avaition companies into unknown territory, Jet2 being one of the most vulnerable as they have a number of old kites as well as now facing a potential bigger fish entering the "holiday" business, who has cash and clout to dent the present Yorkshire outfit. No one can see into the future, but one can use 30 plus years experience in my passion industry to say its going to get rough in the next 5-10 years unless you have vast amounts of cash and solid occupancy, two things that J2 don't presently have.

Anyone who undermines Easy and Ryan commercial models are seriously delusional.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:58
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Originally Posted by rotorwills View Post
... its going to get rough in the next 5-10 years unless you have vast amounts of cash and solid occupancy, two things that J2 don't presently have.

Anyone who undermines Easy and Ryan commercial models are seriously delusional.
I'd have to disagree here. Jet2 have cash in the bank and are the second largest tour operator in the UK, with numbers growing year on year. Package holidays are our bread and butter. The mantra is "we take people on holidays". Easyjet is a scheduled, low-cost airline. In a summer of strikes, they will happily cancel flights to maintain the schedule. Jet2 will always make the effort to get the flights away, even if it means taking big delays and our customers welcome this. It's shown by the amount of repeat custom and more importantly, new custom. We don't get awards for excellent customer service for nothing. Easyjet realise that the model of continual expansion can't last forever and are trying to find new areas to grow in. Will it succeed against the established tour operators? Watch this space I guess.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 17:04
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The way Jet2 operate, reminds me of Peter Bath and Palmair. It remains to be seen once Phillip Meeson hangs up his boots, what happens in the long run.
Can Jet 2 keep the high staffing costs, check in desks fully crewed so no queues, planes on standby in Spanish airports, flying aircraft with low loads in the winter months, when holidays are quiet.
Staffing over 12,000 employees when compared to Ryanair 13,000 and Easyjet 14,000 (2018 figures), passengers Jet 2, 12,180,000 to Ryanair 130,300,000, Easyjet 88,500,000, (again 2018) shows how far you are apart from the really big players are, there is much room for streamlining. One of the reasons TC went under was due debt, mainly from purchasing My Travel, Jet2 don't have this, but if they start to struggle, how long will Dart keep bailing them out, they are after all a
PLC and the Shareholders will get restless.
I do hope Jet2 succeed, it is a home grown airline, but in the long run, I am sure they will have to take a long hard look at themselves. Ryanair and Easyjet are not sitting still, you dismiss or ignore them at your peril.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 17:57
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Originally Posted by ford cortina View Post
Jet2 don't have this, but if they start to struggle, how long will Dart keep bailing them out,
i donít often jump to Jet2ís defence but UHM WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON.

A quick goggle

Revenue has grown by 16 per cent in the half-year results for Dart Group, the listed company behind Jet2 and Jet2holidays.

Leeds-headquartered Dart Group reported revenue of £2.62bn for the half year ended 30 September 2019, up from £2.25bn in the same period of 2018.

Profit before taxation also increased to £339.7m from £331.7m the year before.

The dart group are made up of essentially 2 parts. Jet2 and Fowler Welch.

from the same article

Profitability from the group's Distribution and Logistics business grew by 23 per cent to £2.7m

So 339.7 minus 2.7 means Jet2 has made 337 million pounds profit in half a year. Let me say that again 337 million PROFIT in 6 months. What part of the Dart group will be ďbailing outĒ the airline. The logistics arm that made less than 1/100th of the total profit of the entire group???

In the whole year easyjet made £90 million more profit than Jet2 did in 6 months.




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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:14
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I did not say they are losing money, only IF.
Anyway its all moot. The next 5 to 10 years will see a massive change in how we book holidays and travel.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:46
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Originally Posted by ford cortina View Post
I did not say they are losing money, only IF.
Anyway its all moot. The next 5 to 10 years will see a massive change in how we book holidays and travel.

I did think that at one point, but I have recently changed my mind. There will always be a market for families what want to get to airport, give the airline the bags with no dramas, get on board and sit with family, get to the other end and be driven to the hotel. This will not change even with air bnb and the likes. As soon as kids come along it changes everything!

J2 are very well placed, thomas cook had all the legacy hangover issues of a huge high street retail estate, and all the debt that entailed. J2 do not have this and I would imagine their only debt is in the aircraft themselves. I think jet2 are going from strength to strength and I think other players are watching very closely at their success.

Long may it last.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:18
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UAV689, I do hope so, I really do
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:20
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Originally Posted by Flying Wild View Post
I'd have to disagree here. Jet2 have cash in the bank and are the second largest tour operator in the UK, with numbers growing year on year. Package holidays are our bread and butter. The mantra is "we take people on holidays". Easyjet is a scheduled, low-cost airline. In a summer of strikes, they will happily cancel flights to maintain the schedule. Jet2 will always make the effort to get the flights away, even if it means taking big delays and our customers welcome this. It's shown by the amount of repeat custom and more importantly, new custom. We don't get awards for excellent customer service for nothing. Easyjet realise that the model of continual expansion can't last forever and are trying to find new areas to grow in. Will it succeed against the established tour operators? Watch this space I guess.

I apologise as I appear to a set a cat a most some pigeons. I was not setting out to disparage J2 in anyway but just as being an observer as I have no direct involvement or have any relationship with these guys. I have many associates, one can call them friends if stretching points, but as I say many of them who are employed by them do relate the conditions and such like. Let's move this thread back to where it should be, in that advice was asked and I gave my two shillings worth, hmmm decimal? No .

Moving on, I have seen so much drivel on these forums in the last 10 years or so and have refrained many times in making comments, I see my comment was and has been now commented on with not necessarily the sort of response that one may gave hoped for, nonetheless, a young inexperienced FO wanted to gain some advice, turned to the forum for that said advice. I believe my advice based on what was possible in my realm to provide was given. Please understand that this is general advice and so can be dismissed by certain circumstances which are.ARE, unusual as times and situations vary at any given time, was accused of ramblings by one, anyway walking on, tramping even, so top and bottom, if you are an FO looking to move up into command and one can see a clear path to that goal, then stay on that path. Do not, DONOT jump ship into an unknown outfit. That's me over and out.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 22:39
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Sulman

The way I see it: Be proactive!
1
Finish your route to command in FR and pester your Base TRE so that You are ready. The Max comes in March. 2020 or 2022,and if the latter You will not get command for the next 3 years.I know it is likely it comes next year, but do You want to gamble on that? If so I recommend Command.

2
Start the process of getting in to jet2 and TUI this winter as You study for command, as there is some preparation to be done.
IF they want You , THEN decide , when given the offer. I am sure they will provide all the pros and cons and trust me , commuting for 20 years is not healthy.

Regards
Cpt B
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