Retirement Age for Pilots
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Bealzebub,
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that's the case. I'm guessing you’re talking about people employed by a certain airline that mandated they retire, from them, at the age of 55 on a very generous pension. They were still able to go on and fly elsewhere until the age of 65 which is the point at which they could no longer hold a medical for commercial ops, hence they signed up to fly until 65 should they wish. Many people did and did very well out of it indeed. All that change achieved was to bring it into line with other airlines.
What we're talking about here is completely different. I'm a long way past my early 20s sadly, and I expect to retire at or before I turn 65. It is unacceptable that a potential change to the medical requirements (allowing people to work past 65) would leave many of us no choice but to do the same, against our wishes. If legal action starts for the former, then I expect BALPA to represent the very large number of its members who would be seriously detrimentally affected by any change. Preventing the career progression of younger pilots, i.e. those not retiring imminently, is also age discrimination, however you look at it. It works both ways.
I would suggest the reason that you don't get many under 40's clamouring to work beyond 65 is that we are pretty much the first generation(s) of pilots who have consistently flown close to 900hrs a year. Many of those approaching 65 haven't, certainly not on shorthaul. No one knows what state we'll all be in when we get to 65, indeed most guys & girls I know that are at or around my age are either talking about going part-time, or have already done so.
Trossie, then they just become FOs. It's quite simple.
No we didn’t “all sign up to retire at 65” many of us will have expected to retire at 55 or later 60 when we “signed up.” Even then, with the option to retire anything up to 5 years earlier on reduced pensions.
What we're talking about here is completely different. I'm a long way past my early 20s sadly, and I expect to retire at or before I turn 65. It is unacceptable that a potential change to the medical requirements (allowing people to work past 65) would leave many of us no choice but to do the same, against our wishes. If legal action starts for the former, then I expect BALPA to represent the very large number of its members who would be seriously detrimentally affected by any change. Preventing the career progression of younger pilots, i.e. those not retiring imminently, is also age discrimination, however you look at it. It works both ways.
I would suggest the reason that you don't get many under 40's clamouring to work beyond 65 is that we are pretty much the first generation(s) of pilots who have consistently flown close to 900hrs a year. Many of those approaching 65 haven't, certainly not on shorthaul. No one knows what state we'll all be in when we get to 65, indeed most guys & girls I know that are at or around my age are either talking about going part-time, or have already done so.
Trossie, then they just become FOs. It's quite simple.
Last edited by DuctOvht; 1st Feb 2018 at 13:30.
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Preventing the career progression of younger pilots, i.e. those not retiring imminently, is also age discrimination, however you look at it.
I had to retire 10 years ago at age 60 shortly after my airline had eliminated pilot retirements. I wonder how many of the 30 and 40 year olds who thought I should have to go so they could move up would have been happy to retire with only what they had saved.
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It is not hard to find a doctor who will be fairly lax in his medical examination, if you really want it. The 60+ pilots I have met, have in vast majority shown a rapid decline in skills once they passed 60. I have seen several who really should have retired, but kept going to pay for the many ex wives or desired to retain the perceived status. Pushing retirement age further than it already is, is an accident waiting to happen.
And no, I am not advocating for my own sake as I upgraded years ago.
And no, I am not advocating for my own sake as I upgraded years ago.
Oh well, very scientific... The declining cognitive skills of the over 60's is anecdotally confirmed to be correct... I don't know how I managed to land a 737 in a 33 knot crosswind on Saturday night with my declining and waning intellectual powers. Probably a sign of aforementioned brain deterioration is responding to unverified drivel...I don't really care one way or another but it is interesting to note that (as usual) in this industry vested interest always comes to the fore. The perceived wisdom is that my generation is full of selfish bar stewards unwilling to relinquish the left hand seat and obviously led the high life with a string of wives in tow. The reality is that a lot of this group have had their pensions decimated by ruthless and unscrupulous 'management' and face a bleak financial future not because of perceived profligacy. If they are fit enough and are still willing and skilled, why not? I'm not one of them before the insults start flying around.Oh and btw, my AME stated that the smokers and boozers are normally time expired in their late 50's while the remaining 'survivors' are normally medically sound to fly past 65.
Last edited by olster; 31st Jan 2018 at 18:25. Reason: grammar!
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DuctOvht
Firstly, that quote wasn't from me, but from your text it appears so, which of course is, well, simply not true.
Secondly, nobody loses their medical at 65. In fact it is quite legal to fly Airbuses into your 80ies, however only in private OPS, and airline like run flight departments of big companies actually do that with the same level of safety, SOPs and usually quite a bit more training. And why not if the pilot in question can pass his medical and OPC/LPC.
Firstly, that quote wasn't from me, but from your text it appears so, which of course is, well, simply not true.
Secondly, nobody loses their medical at 65. In fact it is quite legal to fly Airbuses into your 80ies, however only in private OPS, and airline like run flight departments of big companies actually do that with the same level of safety, SOPs and usually quite a bit more training. And why not if the pilot in question can pass his medical and OPC/LPC.
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There will be a new auction site on Prune. Old farts at 65 auctioning off their seats to wannabes. They've already spent an bundle; another 30,000 should be possible, and tax free for the OF. Ah, there is an interesting career process. F/O to O/F in 40 years. 
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Denti,
My mistake, it was Bealzebub I was quoting. Sorry. I’ve edited the post.
That said, you’ll note in the post of mine you quoted that I said “They were still able to go on and fly elsewhere until the age of 65 which is the point at which they could no longer hold a medical for commercial ops”. I’m aware you can fly whatever you want privately, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
In light of the above I’ll make this my last comment as I feel like I’m repeating myself. In response to the ‘why not?’ questions my point once more is this;
We all knew/know that as far as commercial ops are concerned 65 is your lot, as the licencing authorities have deemed that’s as far as you can go for medical reasons. I very much plan to be done at 65, if not before. For me to do so, my DC pension pot needs my career to pan out as I expect it to. I’m not expecting a command tomorrow, but at some point in the future, yes.
Hypothetically, everything suddenly changes, and the time to command (and projected earnings) that were based on other people retiring at 65 are now based on absolutely nothing, as people can go on until they drop. Assuming a good number of people choose to go on beyond 65 for whatever reason, that leaves me with no option but to carry on working too, potentially into my 70’s. Do I want to be doing a command course in my early 60s? Hell no.
The whole concept of a change like this, and the effect it will have on people further down the ‘foodchain’ is just ridiculous. I hope it never happens.
My mistake, it was Bealzebub I was quoting. Sorry. I’ve edited the post.
That said, you’ll note in the post of mine you quoted that I said “They were still able to go on and fly elsewhere until the age of 65 which is the point at which they could no longer hold a medical for commercial ops”. I’m aware you can fly whatever you want privately, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
In light of the above I’ll make this my last comment as I feel like I’m repeating myself. In response to the ‘why not?’ questions my point once more is this;
We all knew/know that as far as commercial ops are concerned 65 is your lot, as the licencing authorities have deemed that’s as far as you can go for medical reasons. I very much plan to be done at 65, if not before. For me to do so, my DC pension pot needs my career to pan out as I expect it to. I’m not expecting a command tomorrow, but at some point in the future, yes.
Hypothetically, everything suddenly changes, and the time to command (and projected earnings) that were based on other people retiring at 65 are now based on absolutely nothing, as people can go on until they drop. Assuming a good number of people choose to go on beyond 65 for whatever reason, that leaves me with no option but to carry on working too, potentially into my 70’s. Do I want to be doing a command course in my early 60s? Hell no.
The whole concept of a change like this, and the effect it will have on people further down the ‘foodchain’ is just ridiculous. I hope it never happens.
Last edited by DuctOvht; 1st Feb 2018 at 19:16.
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Ah, you young lads will change as you get older.
I'm embarrassed by the views I held in the RHS on a stagnant seniority list.
My last airline was lobbying their regulator to put the age up to 67-68, but they stopped when they realised that nearly all the Capts were naturally leaving at 63-64 as I did, not many stayed to the end.
If a guy wishes to continue, is it the politics of envy driving your arguments?
I'm embarrassed by the views I held in the RHS on a stagnant seniority list.
My last airline was lobbying their regulator to put the age up to 67-68, but they stopped when they realised that nearly all the Capts were naturally leaving at 63-64 as I did, not many stayed to the end.
If a guy wishes to continue, is it the politics of envy driving your arguments?
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I am horrified that the regulator (CAA) has the right to regulate my 'dignity'!
How undignified would it be to meet one of the locals in your village, who has always known you to be energetic and active and enjoying your job, who commented that you seem to be at home a lot these days and you had to say that you weren't allowed to work any more as the assumption was that due to your age you might be going gaga and incompetent.
Our vet has a wonderful statement about this: "Age is just a number". The same would logically apply to human animals too.
How undignified would it be to meet one of the locals in your village, who has always known you to be energetic and active and enjoying your job, who commented that you seem to be at home a lot these days and you had to say that you weren't allowed to work any more as the assumption was that due to your age you might be going gaga and incompetent.
Our vet has a wonderful statement about this: "Age is just a number". The same would logically apply to human animals too.
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I am horrified that the regulator (CAA) has the right to regulate my 'dignity'!
Objective Justifications. Of which preservation of dignity forms a part, are the law of the land I’m afraid.
It saves you from the probably greater ‘indignity’ of having to explain to “one of the locals in your village, who has always known you to be energetic and active and enjoying your job” that you have just been sacked, as you were no longer up to the job!
Sorry if that comes as bad news. But as I say. It’s the law.
I’m afraid some people need saving from themselves.
Last edited by 4468; 3rd Feb 2018 at 22:02.
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But if this dictatorial State is going to 'protect our dignity' then surely the age of forced retirement should be lowered to the lowest age that may have any age-related medical conditions could cause a loss of flying medical? I am sure that on those grounds a case for enforced retirement between about 45 and 50 could easily be argued. All to protect everyone from the risk of the indignity of any age-related loss of medical.
The same with mental competence. What is the lowest age that people suffer from dementia? That is what The State should dictate as the forced retirement age for pilots, all to protect them from themselves and 'preserve their dignity' of course!
Now if defining the age that low is seen as ridiculous, then why is the present age not equally ridiculous. It is a nicely 'rounded off to the nearest five' figure. Why not 70 or 75? Why not any figure in between? What about people who are unfairly penalised by a day because they were born in the 'wrong' year and didn't get their fair share of extra leap-year days through their career? I'll go back to our vet's comment: "Age is just a number". But a thumb-sucked number-to-the-nearest-five is chosen as the cliff-edge to 'protect people from themselves' and ensure that The (Nanny) State can chose your indignities for you.
The same with mental competence. What is the lowest age that people suffer from dementia? That is what The State should dictate as the forced retirement age for pilots, all to protect them from themselves and 'preserve their dignity' of course!
Now if defining the age that low is seen as ridiculous, then why is the present age not equally ridiculous. It is a nicely 'rounded off to the nearest five' figure. Why not 70 or 75? Why not any figure in between? What about people who are unfairly penalised by a day because they were born in the 'wrong' year and didn't get their fair share of extra leap-year days through their career? I'll go back to our vet's comment: "Age is just a number". But a thumb-sucked number-to-the-nearest-five is chosen as the cliff-edge to 'protect people from themselves' and ensure that The (Nanny) State can chose your indignities for you.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The reality is that a lot of this group have had their pensions decimated by ruthless and unscrupulous 'management' and face a bleak financial future not because of perceived profligacy.
Not to mention the possibility of a couple of airlines going bust underneath you, followed by a period of unemployment before starting over again as an FO, the overall effect can reduce the estimated pension pot by as much as a half.
Age is personal, it depends on the individual. Call that an old Theory of Relativity...
Age remains an area of discrimination, and of course is controversial where seniority systems exist where there is no expansion underway. Downunder, I am not certain that there has been any real effect on age extensions that have happened over 30 years, and finally resulting in the removal of all age limits as is the case in NZL. In AUS, the regionals are having difficulties in filling cockpit seats, which says as much about terms and conditions, but there is a shortage, and we have been effective as an industry in removing incentive for people to take up the "profession".
The EU and China, as well as the USA will take a long time to alter their position, but as has been suggested, we do not see a significant age related risk occurring in the industry where age has been raised or removed as a constraint.
For those that can retire early, well played, other players may have had a different outcome, but most would be happy to be sitting on the dock fishing if they could, except for the few that remain enthusiasts who haven't had the industries continuous race to the bottom turn their outlook to a bilious jaundiced view of the world around them, yet.
Ultra long haul at 70 sounds like hell, but smacking around regional space & time sounds appealing. Right now, I'm barrelling around at low level at high speed because there is no one else crazy enough to do the job. As much fun now as when I did it in camo 40 years ago. Age is a personal thing.
Age remains an area of discrimination, and of course is controversial where seniority systems exist where there is no expansion underway. Downunder, I am not certain that there has been any real effect on age extensions that have happened over 30 years, and finally resulting in the removal of all age limits as is the case in NZL. In AUS, the regionals are having difficulties in filling cockpit seats, which says as much about terms and conditions, but there is a shortage, and we have been effective as an industry in removing incentive for people to take up the "profession".
The EU and China, as well as the USA will take a long time to alter their position, but as has been suggested, we do not see a significant age related risk occurring in the industry where age has been raised or removed as a constraint.
For those that can retire early, well played, other players may have had a different outcome, but most would be happy to be sitting on the dock fishing if they could, except for the few that remain enthusiasts who haven't had the industries continuous race to the bottom turn their outlook to a bilious jaundiced view of the world around them, yet.
Ultra long haul at 70 sounds like hell, but smacking around regional space & time sounds appealing. Right now, I'm barrelling around at low level at high speed because there is no one else crazy enough to do the job. As much fun now as when I did it in camo 40 years ago. Age is a personal thing.
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Age is personal, it depends on the individual. Call that an old Theory of Relativity...
Age remains an area of discrimination...
... ... ...
Ultra long haul at 70 sounds like hell, but smacking around regional space & time sounds appealing. Right now, I'm barrelling around at low level at high speed because there is no one else crazy enough to do the job. As much fun now as when I did it in camo 40 years ago. Age is a personal thing.
Age remains an area of discrimination...
... ... ...
Ultra long haul at 70 sounds like hell, but smacking around regional space & time sounds appealing. Right now, I'm barrelling around at low level at high speed because there is no one else crazy enough to do the job. As much fun now as when I did it in camo 40 years ago. Age is a personal thing.
But watch out, because of
Objective Justifications. Of which preservation of dignity forms a part
... some people need saving from themselves.
However, the reality is that "Age is personal, it depends on the individual." State imposed bans at a certain number is an aberration of nature.
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fdr
Mind if I ask what are you doing right now and your age? Sounds like an old dog still in love with aviation! ( with all my respect and same pasion as you to the aviation industry ). It is difficult to keep that enthusiasm over the years, I wish I could have it in 40 years now!
Mind if I ask what are you doing right now and your age? Sounds like an old dog still in love with aviation! ( with all my respect and same pasion as you to the aviation industry ). It is difficult to keep that enthusiasm over the years, I wish I could have it in 40 years now!