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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

Old 17th May 2015, 17:00
  #101 (permalink)  
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Gammon.....stop going on.....it's not £4800 net anymore, and in last of cases it's more than 8 days off. Move on, you are out of touch with the recent improvements .

Monarch, well, the experience is somewhat variable still. Some with good rosters some less so. I'm not known for hyperbole, so all I can say is it is ok for me at present and I have no agenda.
Old 17th May 2015, 17:13
  #102 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 14
The recent improvements are very small and they cost Norwegian almost nothing ...
NLH now mainly attracts European pilots working in Asia and in the Middle East who are ready to accept poor terms and conditions to be closer to home...
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Old 18th May 2015, 18:45
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 504
It's simply a disgraceful package for the Job involved.
twentyyearstoolate, you (and others here) made headline news in a major Norwegian newspaper, quoted here

( g translate version here )

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Old 18th May 2015, 20:12
  #104 (permalink)  
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I don't fit in any of those categories.
I think you have to compare apples with apples - this long haul low cost is a new idea with a tight cost base.

If anybody abroad is expecting NLh to offer captains pay in line with a legacy carrier at pay point 25 to attract them, I think they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

As for the Norwegian short haul, they have there own deals. But not overlooking the captains will be voluntarily demoting themselves as we don't except narrow body capts direct onto long haul.
Old 18th May 2015, 22:01
  #105 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 159
I can't see why Ryanair guys would see this as a useful rating to invest in over their 738 ratings. Where the hell are you going to go with a 787 rating?

Thomson? Union

Virgin? Forget that unless you flew a fast pencil, wore badges and had a name like "badger"

BA? Tenuous reason to spend the money. May as well stay on the 738, you'd still be able to apply if you wanted.

The ME/FE/ rest of world etc? Just apply directly to these companies with 738 time if you are hell bent on leaving the UK. The ME etc are all taking non rated.
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Old 18th May 2015, 22:18
  #106 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 159
That some are defending this package illuminates one of the reasons why this job is completely ****** as a future. "On my own, I can't do anything about it, it's the way terms are heading. You're all in cookoo land, accept it, that's capitalism".

I'm not even going to attempt to get into a bun fight over this. I've said my piece. It is the way it's going, but do I accept it? No bloody way. I'll fight to the end when I work out my escape, if not for me, for the next blind idiot. Because the bosses aren't getting poorer. If there was some magnanimous idea that even the owners were in ribbons of clothing perhaps, but they aren't. They picked this fight to undercut each other and reduce their prices. The squeeze went on their workforce. If there's no resistance then the squeeze goes on the workforce. Only us dimwits at the coal face defending their practices look like prize turkeys. Do the bosses drive Ladas? No they bloody don't. They go home at night the same as ever to their loved ones, enjoying the joys of life and good living and get to back slap each other at the business awards. Why the hell would I want to shorten my life span on shit longhaul under the modern terms- let's cut to the chase - to finance some management/ directors fancy lifestyle. Because that's all you're doing.

I'm getting out of this sorry industry when I can. I have worked many jobs outside flying and know the grass ain't greener money wise, but the lifestyle bloody is. You can't spend money in your coffin. And I'm downright tired letting some clown offer me a lifestyle that's putting me closer to that coffin just so he can turn a buck and own the next Porsche.
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Old 20th May 2015, 03:00
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Outta town
Posts: 153
With regards statement above , this has been practiced for many years in another uk carrier, Virgin ! I cant think Branson's has ever resided in some terrace house, wondering about his mortgage repayments not been met because his rostered allowances are down this month.

The new way into uk avaiation in the next decade for wannabes will be as follows: Get 200 hr licence. Go overseas for 20 years. Earn enough to be mortgage free and , having already educated the kids, apply for a an allowances only flying job for your last 10 years before
After all, who pays you to cut the lawn right? Might as well be flying for food .
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Old 20th May 2015, 09:24
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Posts: 272
However, Virgin crew are employees of the airline and treated accordingly. As opposed to Norwegian’s contractor crew who are treated shamefully with respect to labor rights.

Sadly for some defending this organization, Norwegian has become rather like a cult, headed by an individual who would make any James Bond villain appear compassionate. Similarly, there is an inner core of henchmen who crush any perceived criticism. Most notable amongst these cronies is ‘Doctor Spin’ in the form of a Press Officer. Spin defends and promotes his master’s global plan at every opportunity.

Within the Norwegian Airline Group at least two pilots are currently suspended for daring to speak out. Others have been summarily removed without any investigation for their perceived dissention after reporting safety matters. The FAA is currently investigating the precipitous termination of four NLH cabin crew based in JFK following a serious safety incident. Norwegian’s shameful attitude toward labor has been well reported, not by US unions, accused by Norwegian of only defending US jobs, but by their own countrymen, e.g. most of the media in Norway. The unsavory facts of this thread were reported on Monday 18th, in Norway’s Dagbladet newspaper. Link:-

Må betale 350 000 kroner for å fly for Norwegian - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

As reported, when asked if it was true that Norwegian has no employer responsibility toward its 787 LGW based pilots, Spin replied:

“No this is not correct. Our Dreamliner pilots at London Gatwick has the same rights as all other workers in the UK”

Reality: No direct employer/employment relationship exists with Norwegian. As such, it is categorically impossible for a LGW Dreamliner pilot to have the same rights as all other workers in the UK. When asked if it was true that Norwegian’s conditions are outrageously bad and the worst paid in the world for Dreamliner pilots, Spin replied:

“This is wrong. Our Dreamliner pilots based in London Gatwick get competitive conditons”

Reality: Norwegian’s Dremaliner pilots are in fact the worst paid in the world and have no redeeming conditions.

NLH Dreamliner pilots are contractors not employees. Norwegian may dispense with contracted pilot services and/or change the terms and conditions with the agency at any time. Remember, Norwegian was easily able to separate the Scandinavian pilots into three divisions during the recent strike. The 90-days notice period is with the agency, not the lessor airline, Norwegian. The agency is lawfully permitted to put pilots on 90-days notice, but may not have any contracts/work other than with Norwegian - check the contract for the liability of the agency to find you alternative work. You are effectively terminated forthwith and, without recourse against Norwegian due to the complicated web of the employment relationship, masterminded from Norwegian's headquarters in Fornebu Norway, through their Dublin satellite office, via their business partner agency in New Zealand and their associated London subsidiary (probably a broom cupboard in Crawley). This is an employment law and labor rights circumvention plan worthy of SMERSH.

In addition to other matters of grave concern, no doubt the US DOT is now examining NHL’s blanket bonding policy. As previously commented, I know of no other airline where all the pilots of an entire fleet are bonded. Combined with the facts of Norwegian’s documented punitive actions against its staff, this poses a potential issue regarding voluntary safety reporting. Before some of you react to my assertion, there can be no guarantees that a pilot owing thousands in training bond, together with mortgage, school fees, car payments, alimony, etc., will not be reluctant to speak out and put their means to effect this substantial debt repayment at risk (yes, I am aware there are regulatory protections when reporting safety matters, however, while proving your constructive dismissal case, you will still be without income).

The NLH business model/scheme is an added cause of stress and pressure for pilots and potentially obstructs voluntary safety reporting. It has no place in aviation.

To put matters in perspective, a direct hire supermarket shelf-stacker has more employment law protection and labor rights than a LGW based, NLH Dreamliner pilot.

Bjorn Kjos was previously named ‘Leader of the Year’ by temporary staffing agency Manpower Inc. A leader indeed – to the bottom.
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Old 20th May 2015, 13:30
  #109 (permalink)  

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As reported, when asked if it was true that Norwegian has no employer responsibility toward its 787 LGW based pilots, Spin replied:

“No this is not correct. Our Dreamliner pilots at London Gatwick has the same rights as all other workers in the UK”
It's one of those non-answers politicians give...

Of course they've got "statutory rights" but they're not the "rights" in question.

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Old 20th May 2015, 14:33
  #110 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chester
Posts: 68
To Answer an earlier post about ex legacy carrier pilots currently operating in the LHS of NLH 787s (these are just the ones I know personally....have only been there six months so this is just a cross section).
2 retired Cathay guys
2 retired Austrian TRI/TREs
double figure numbers of retired KLM guys
Most of the Training Department from GSS
1 ex BA guy (had a medical issue then returned to fly the line at GSS)
Close to double digit numbers of ex Korean guys
1 Ex Emirates trainer
1 Ex Qatar trainer
Haven't counted
4 Boeing LGW trainers gaining 787 line flying experience (including ex BA guys)
2 Ex Thomas Cook (recently promoted from the Relief Capt
1 Ex Cargolux
1 Ex DHL TRI/TRE also about to be upgraded to LHS
or one of the top trainers in the RAF with a huge amount of heavy civil experience (currently an RCA as he also didn't have 777 time).

Before my time I believe we had 30 odd Virgin guys who brought a lot of long haul experience to the operation for the best part of a year.

I have probably seen less misfits in this company than any of my previous....almost to a man this is a great bunch of people (undoubtedly the best thing about NLH)

Most of these guys here just were originally trying to avoid the sandpit / China...or top up their retirement income.
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Old 20th May 2015, 23:33
  #111 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I know the ex Austrian guys, they got in early and have VERY different contracts ;-))
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Old 21st May 2015, 06:03
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Posts: 272
NLH are very lucky to have obtained such an impressive mix of talent as listed above. No doubt NLH managers have made full use of their vast experience to ensure safety and regulatory compliance. Or maybe not;

On January 26 an NLH Dreamyliner, DY7006 (LNF), departed JFK-ARN and flew across the Atlantic without the required number of cabin crew - "Of course this was illegal" states Einar Schjolberg, CAA Norway Director. This occurred while the Captain was undergoing a Line Check! Again, this was not reported by any of those nasty people in the US trying to stop NLH, but by the Norway media, Link:-

Norwegian-fly underbemannet over Atlanteren: - Uakseptabelt, sier Luftfartstilsynet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

This event is very surprising given the experience on offer and the fact that Norwegian has a resident "aviation expert" in the form of a Post Holder, who regularly appears in the press to comment on safety matters and defend Norwegian's low cost business model and exclusive use of contract pilots.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 14:29
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Outta town
Posts: 153
As i hinted at before, Norwegian have, probably unwittingly, realised that there are heaps and heaps of massively experienced expat guys who are not interested in the money, but just want to keep their hand in for a couple of years before they retire, or ex legacy guys wanting to have a bit of fun. If they earn a salary while doing it, all the better.

The ex Korean guys are BKK employed and all were ex KE777.

The reality is that this pot of expat experience has no where to go especially if they want to return as commanders and be european based. There are no companies offering DEC in the UK on long haul, and employing none type rated to boot. A few tens of thousands of euros bond wont make much difference either way.

No doubt the first batch of guys who joined NLH (as mentioned in the post above) are burnt out and are approaching full retirement. Now the new contracts are considerably reduced, but the applications from the middle east just keep coming. Why would NLH offer competative salaries when the pot is overflowing with guys who will fly the plastic pencil for food ?
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Old 25th May 2015, 19:39
  #114 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 272
Thank you for clarifying that misunderstanding. When I realized the true cause of all the disagreement in this thread, you could have knocked me down with one of those convoluted NLH contracts.

I originally thought pilots were intentionally being exploited through low wages, no benefits, the circumvention of employment laws and labor rights by using third-party staffing agencies located in multiple countries of legal jurisdiction, the insistence that pilots sign a clause indemnifying the airline from responsibility as the employer and requiring an upfront payment of 40 thousand euro for the privilege of “employment” – commonly referred to as pay2fly.

Who would have believed the above is not an intended corporate policy, conceived, thoroughly planned and implemented by an unprincipled echelon of hypocrites, but rather a convenient business model occurring “unwittingly” and due entirely to a natural labor force phenomenon known as 'pilot overflow' (cancel the recruitment videos, agency gurus, tambourines and kool-aid).

You post “the new contracts are considerably reduced”. Let’s collectively, in a non-union sort of way, cross our fingers and hope the salary does not reduce to that of the CEO. Ref interview video - Link:-

VIDEO: Piketty hammers Norwegian founder on air - The Local

At 4.40 the CEO states:
I am not among the highest paid in Norwegian. A lot of the pilots earn more than me

Although at 5.20 the CEO is asked:
What is your net worth and how much tax do you pay?” - the question is asked ten times, without answer.

However, an interesting ideology is stated by the CEO at 1.45:
You should always have a system where you get return on the job you do. If you work very hard, you should have a return on it. If people do not have a return on it, they will not work very hard - it motivates them

Based on the reported “new contracts being considerably reduced” and stated ethos of the CEO, it follows that a work slowdown at NLH is imminent. Will that be: 1. Collectively 2. Individually or 3. Not at all? - Answer on a postcard to CEO. First correct answer wins a direct employment contract with all associated employee benefits.

(Only NLH pilots permitted to enter. Prize is not transferable to NAS. Direct employment contract available only at Fornebue headquarters. Details of your entry may be kept on file and used to determine base, roster, promotion, contract renewal or workforce reduction. Other conditions may apply, but I’m not telling you about them. Only one entry per pilot allowed).
Direct Bondi is offline  
Old 25th May 2015, 20:49
  #115 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 74
The above two posts pretty much sum up the two sides of the argument to me.

Highfive makes the "supply and demand" case. Based entirely on cold logic but without what we, as the labour providers, like to cause morals and fairness.

Directbondi takes the "fair days pay for a fair days work" approach. Again with plenty of logic although this time with some added humanity.

However, what happens when we as the labour providers find ourselves with the proverbial boots on our proverbial feet?

I don't recall seeing a single comment suggesting we as pilots should cap potential earnings in the Far East. "Quarter of a million dollars per year? Absoloutly, seems reasonable to me. Well, there's a reason they pay so much, no-one would do it otherwise".....or something along those lines.

If, in some parallel universe, Europe did suffer the long predicted pilot shortage would we turn down telephone number salaries the airlines would beg to pay us?

Sounds like the other side of supply and demand to me. Whilst I acknowledge that some airlines are taking everything they can now, I'm not sure we would behave any better.
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Old 28th May 2015, 00:12
  #116 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
Direct Bondi is clearly unhappy that NLH are exploiting a ready supply of willing and able candidates. He appears to be offended that some of his peers elect to supply their services to an employer he considers unworthy and is very keen to paint Norwegian in the worst possible light. I suggest that he is guilty of wishful thinking if he expects any employer nowadays to pay any more than the bare minimum required to recruit and retain pilots of adequate quality in sufficient numbers. That level of remuneration will differ between regions and between different companies in the same region. Norwegian happens to be the lowest paid wide body operator in their region but they would be crazy to pay any more than they have to.

We are all big boys and responsible for our own decisions. Don't like Norwegian? Then don't join. Want more money? Go to the Middle East or China. I really don't need anyone with an agenda to protect me from myself.
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Old 28th May 2015, 00:37
  #117 (permalink)  

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. Norwegian happens to be the lowest paid wide body operator in their region but they would be crazy to pay any more than they have to.
Uh, are you defending the race to the bottom?

Regardless, it IS supply and demand.
When I started in this business, flying big jets back in 1988, the pay as a new hire FO on the DC-8-73 for Evergreen on the Air India Cargo contract was pretty low, not horrible, just low.
I still took the job, needed the jet time and the training, as well as the job.
(No charge or bond back then)
After 3 months on the job with a Frankfurt base, German Air Cargo started up with the same jets, DC-8-73' and a Frankfurt base.
Half of the Evergreen guys, mostly Europeans, jumped ship and went to German Air Cargo.
A few days later we got a 35% pay increase. To keep more of us from leaving obviously.
Supply and demand indeed.
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Old 29th May 2015, 10:01
  #118 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 447
Out of the Blue, this arrived in my Mail..
Maybe they are reading PPRuNe too! " effectively a 15% pay increase" a leaf from the THY book me thinks...

Rishworth Aviation is pleased to announce improved terms for all Norwegian Long Haul B787 roles based at LGW. Contracts will now be paid in GBP - effectively a 15% pay increase.

If you have already completed your application you will also benefit from these new terms. There is no need to to reapply.

If you have not yet applied don't miss out, apply today!

Screenings will be held in Oslo in July, August and September with courses starting in October and the coming months into the first part of 2016.

Should you be successful you will be employed by Rishworth Aviation subsidiary company, Global Crew UK Ltd.

Invitations to the screenings will be sent out shortly by Norwegian. Complete your application now to make sure you don’t miss out!

Watch what pilots Captain John Woolfson, Relief Captain Matia Fracasso and First Officer Mubashar Kapur say about flying the B787 Dreamliner for Norwegian Long Haul as they show you around what your future office in the sky could look like!
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Old 29th May 2015, 13:10
  #119 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 272
"I really don't need anyone with an agenda to protect me from myself"

Oh dear, the “agenda” witless response. This website is full of threads with this last resort accusation, commonly used when no other defense of a contentious issue is possible.

My point is, and remains, the gross hypocrisy of a company that continually projects itself as a principled employer. Supply and demand always affects price – clearly the applications have slowed, as evidenced by the above post/advertisement. It does not necessarily follow that supply and demand should automatically create only third-party agency jobs, circumventing employment laws, rights, standards and principles, merely because of a labor excess. Such an abhorrent business model is intentionally man made:-

“Should you be successful you will be employed by Rishworth Aviation subsidiary company, Global Crew UK Ltd”

As if to add insult to the injury of this non-employment relationship with the airline, even more hypocrisy from their own website:-


“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employees’ basic human rights as outlined in the International Labour Organisation's core conventions”

If such great importance is placed on ensuring compliance with an employees ILO rights, why does this airline do everything possible to circumvent them?

Agenda no, facts yes. Your right to choose, absolutely.
Direct Bondi is offline  
Old 29th May 2015, 14:10
  #120 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Outta town
Posts: 153
Just occured to me that whoever takes this job, sorry , fabulous opportunity, will feel such a berk walking accross the apron knowing that they are the low paid laughing stock of the long haul community.

There will be where to hide, might as well stamp "looser" on your forehead!
highfive is offline  

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