Norwegian B787 - LGW based
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"Good point well made" as they say . . . best of luck to those who roll the dice
(fortunately the rating & a bit of experience will give you a joker card or two in the deck https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-09-03 )
(fortunately the rating & a bit of experience will give you a joker card or two in the deck https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-09-03 )
Last edited by captplaystation; 14th Sep 2016 at 01:01.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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NEDude;
After 33 years flying transport category jets all over the world, including flying in the US during the Lorenzo and Icahn 80’s, I do not need your advice on this, nor any other matter. Thank you very much. You are entitled to your opinion.
Via his novel and complex labor model, Kjos has introduced the “innovation” of circumventing labor laws, labor rights and labor principles for pilots and cabin crew flying with most of his airline divisions, and in some instances charging pilots 30K for the privilege!
Defending Norwegian’s abhorrent regime on the pretense of innovation and that it may be the best job in 20 years, is neither legitimate nor palatable.
After 33 years flying transport category jets all over the world, including flying in the US during the Lorenzo and Icahn 80’s, I do not need your advice on this, nor any other matter. Thank you very much. You are entitled to your opinion.
Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition
Via his novel and complex labor model, Kjos has introduced the “innovation” of circumventing labor laws, labor rights and labor principles for pilots and cabin crew flying with most of his airline divisions, and in some instances charging pilots 30K for the privilege!
Defending Norwegian’s abhorrent regime on the pretense of innovation and that it may be the best job in 20 years, is neither legitimate nor palatable.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Norwegian takes advantage of a broken relationship:
“Actor. LA. Newly single. Seeks likeminded partner with GSOH”
http://www.cntraveler.com/story/merciless-norwegian-air-jumps-on-brangelina-breakup-with-new-ad
A similar ad might read:
“Pilot seeks airline direct employment relationship, long-term, 787 position at LGW. No training payment ransom. Management integrity and competence essential”
At present, Norwegian does not meet all the prerequisites.
“Actor. LA. Newly single. Seeks likeminded partner with GSOH”
http://www.cntraveler.com/story/merciless-norwegian-air-jumps-on-brangelina-breakup-with-new-ad
A similar ad might read:
“Pilot seeks airline direct employment relationship, long-term, 787 position at LGW. No training payment ransom. Management integrity and competence essential”
At present, Norwegian does not meet all the prerequisites.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Fantastic marketing was last week. Today, Saturday, October 1st, Norwegian is once again leaving passengers distraught and stranded due to lack of crew:
http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/norwegian-kunder-fortviler-mangler-personell-kansellerer-ruter/23809012
Lack of crew and standby crew causes Norwegian to cancel flights to and from Spain
Ferielystne nordmenn raser etter Norwegian-kanselleringer: ? Håpløst! - Norwegian Air Shuttle - VG
Join Date: Mar 2011
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I think he is trying to save a few good men and woman making a wrong decision in joining an agency who is employing contractors to operate Norwegian planes. Either under Irish, UK or Norwegian registration. If you speak up a bit about anything (20 days away from home in a row? Bad sick pay? Floating bases? Clowns in management bending the rules to upgrade themselves ahead of the group, and changing the rules after their own upgrade) within the company you are thrown out after your 2-3 year contract.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I think he is trying to save a few good men and woman making a wrong decision in joining an agency who is employing contractors to operate Norwegian planes. Either under Irish, UK or Norwegian registration. If you speak up a bit about anything (20 days away from home in a row? Bad sick pay? Floating bases? Clowns in management bending the rules to upgrade themselves ahead of the group, and changing the rules after their own upgrade) within the company you are thrown out after your 2-3 year contract.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
- Cant really comment about management but to be honest, but some hearsay about pilots bitching about management decisions I've heard literally about every airline on this planet, from Loco to Legacy.
-Afaik, everybody whose 3year contract ended got a new permanent contract with OSM and wasn't thrown out
-20 days away from home, not really from what i have seen so far. Might have been like that in the beginning but now, this seems to be the very rare exception and certainly not the norm.
-What are floating bases you talk about? The contract says base LGW and thats it. Of course you will fly from other bases but in that case they arrange travel between London and whatever place you fly from, including travel days. Just like in every other airline.
-Everybody living in the UK will pay UK taxes in full! Everybody not living in the UK will pay taxes according to the bilateral agreement between the UK and the country of living.
Join Date: Oct 2016
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I think he is trying to save a few good men and woman making a wrong decision in joining an agency who is employing contractors to operate Norwegian planes. Either under Irish, UK or Norwegian registration. If you speak up a bit about anything (20 days away from home in a row? Bad sick pay? Floating bases? Clowns in management bending the rules to upgrade themselves ahead of the group, and changing the rules after their own upgrade) within the company you are thrown out after your 2-3 year contract.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?
Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
1) I am not away 20 days in a row. Minimum trip 3 days, maximum 7. Unless you commute from a less accessible area of the world.
2) 30 days sick leave. Do you need more?
3) Base policy changing to a mix of bidding between fixed, floating or gateway.
4) Clowns in management! Sure there are. I just havenīt met them yet.
5) Everybody gets their contracts renewed. We need them.
6) Taxes payed in UK or your country of residence.
So far I have only encountered nice and friendly and easygoing people. Every scheduling request has been awarded. Just the few usual complaints.
I am very happy with my choice. If you feel repulsed by my airline, try and take a wild guess at what my advice to you would be!
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Bunkbastard,
Is it possible to choose not being based in LGW but to a have specific gateway to start your duty? So it means you can commute?
Connected with point 3) above? No based at LGW you pay taxes on your home base?
Thanks
3) Base policy changing to a mix of bidding between fixed, floating or gateway.
6) Taxes payed in UK or your country of residence.
Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2016
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The new base policy has not been finalised yet, but this is what we expect. Should make it much easier to commute.
Regarding taxes, you will have to talk to someone more competent than me.
Regarding taxes, you will have to talk to someone more competent than me.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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everybody whose 3year contract ended got a new permanent contract with OSM
The “permanent” employment contract with Orient Ship Management is for a temporary and precarious indirect position with Norwegian (any notice period is with your employer agency, not Norwegian). Moreover, due to clauses indemnifying the agency, that “permanent” contract may not be so permanent – READ IT!
A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.
Here’s some of what the European Commission has to say in their 310-page report, Atypical Employment in Aviation, when describing novel and complex labor models, as used by the smiling rock ape:
"It has been noted that oftentimes the individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment"
The full report can be downloaded at (large file):
https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf
Have you read the report Violeta?
Last edited by Direct Bondi; 5th Oct 2016 at 11:24. Reason: better link to report
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You see Bondi, when you want your opinion to be taken seriously, you should at least be precise in your argumentation. What you do however, is taking quotes out of context to undermine your point and just hope that nobody checks up on your "facts" because the report has 310 pages.
Your quote is on page 65 of the report in a paragraph about the situation of trade unions in the aviation sector specifically in germany. It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines. If you want some background, i guess (a little bit of speculation on my part, i didnt write the report) what they refer to is the situation in germany that by german national law, pilots are specifically excluded from establishing a works council (according BetrVG) and the only option they have to establish one is to get their employer to recognize a union and establish a collective agreement, granting the pilots and theier work council the same rights as every other employee in germany already has. Of course, it all depends on the good will of the airline and there have been several cases in germany where the airline outright denied the pilots union recogniton and fired (or at least threatened to) the pilots trying to organize it. So yes, naturally these "...individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment". This is of course made worse by forms of non direct employment, however in germany, these types of employment are rare.
Also, while the report has financial support from the European Commission, it is neither from the EC nor is it their position. It is the work of four scientists from Ghent University and it is their position and opinion alone. The disclaimer is actually very specific on this, read it up in your document.
Your quote is on page 65 of the report in a paragraph about the situation of trade unions in the aviation sector specifically in germany. It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines. If you want some background, i guess (a little bit of speculation on my part, i didnt write the report) what they refer to is the situation in germany that by german national law, pilots are specifically excluded from establishing a works council (according BetrVG) and the only option they have to establish one is to get their employer to recognize a union and establish a collective agreement, granting the pilots and theier work council the same rights as every other employee in germany already has. Of course, it all depends on the good will of the airline and there have been several cases in germany where the airline outright denied the pilots union recogniton and fired (or at least threatened to) the pilots trying to organize it. So yes, naturally these "...individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment". This is of course made worse by forms of non direct employment, however in germany, these types of employment are rare.
Also, while the report has financial support from the European Commission, it is neither from the EC nor is it their position. It is the work of four scientists from Ghent University and it is their position and opinion alone. The disclaimer is actually very specific on this, read it up in your document.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines
Officially there is freedom of association in NLH but the truth is quite different.
Of the three pilots who were selected to represent their colleagues, two of them a week ago received an email by management explaining that their 3-year contract which expires at the end of 2016 will not be renewed.
Of the three pilots who were selected to represent their colleagues, two of them a week ago received an email by management explaining that their 3-year contract which expires at the end of 2016 will not be renewed.
“Civil aviation legislation does not take into account the prevalence of different forms of atypical employment and outsourcing in the rapidly changing civil aviation industry. Moreover, social legislation is not able to tackle the new phenomena, leaving room for elaborate subcontracting chains and elaborate social as well as fiscal engineering. As a result, the competition nowadays is a true race to the bottom, which affects fair competition and worker’s rights as well as raises important issues in the field of safety and liability.
It need be noted that lacking general transparency and oversight in the aviation sector by labor inspection authorities render it highly difficult to distinguish between the legal reality and the de facto conditions crew members are subjected to. Moreover, mindful of the transitional nature of contemporary airline employers and the establishment of bases and subsidiaries across and outside Europe, in conjunction with free movement provisions enshrined in the Treaties, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to verify compliance with European provisions of the employment conditions of crew members. The lacking oversight and subsequent enforcement not inconceivably – further prompt lower compliance and abuse of the lacunas in European aviation law”
Bottom line:
A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.
I urge all those applying to Orient Ship Management or Rishworth for an indirect, temporary position with Norwegian, to read the EU Commission funded report and a copy of the respective agency employment contract:
https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf
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just curious, I read that for captain they require X amount of hours as widebody or narrow body in long haul ops? what they consider long haul in a narrow body? Flight of more than 6 hs in a 757/737/A320??
for what I understand is that they require 2500 hs as pic on efis aircraft and 1000 hs in long haul in wide body or narrow body but they dont require to be as PIC. I am correct?
for what I understand is that they require 2500 hs as pic on efis aircraft and 1000 hs in long haul in wide body or narrow body but they dont require to be as PIC. I am correct?