Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A second officer at Easyjet is a first officer who is paid less than a first officer.
As for an investigation into the safety record of P2F pilots, to do this you would need access to all participating companies ASR and flight QAR data and I'm sure as hell they would not give access to this.
As for an investigation into the safety record of P2F pilots, to do this you would need access to all participating companies ASR and flight QAR data and I'm sure as hell they would not give access to this.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Montréal
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Children of the Magenta
Originally Posted by Kirks gusset
Despegue, regretfully I must completely disagree with your stance. We are not talking about erosion of basic flying skills and the need for occasional manual flying but normal day to day operations. Hand flying from LHR! Boeing FCTM section 1.34 777 deals with the advised use of automation whenever possible, I am unsure what books you are reading.. out of RVSM.. well, we often are below 290 for more than 25 minutes, not sure about hand flying a triple for this long... scary stuff.. keep it for the sim!
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wake up guys, don' t you understand that this is plain and simple capitalism? Honestly, once you base a system with profit being king, what should stop a company to hire people on internships instead of payed contracts, and why should an airline not have pay to fly if that increases profits?
It' s a lost battle, a waste of time, all these discussions, all these groups. You have to look at the problem at the source, and that is the system we are living in. We are all part of it when we take up a mortgage, when we buy a useless new car, or an even more useless hi tech gadget.
I'm sorry to say that all of this is a logical consequence of a well estabilished system, and we are in no position to change it.
It' s a lost battle, a waste of time, all these discussions, all these groups. You have to look at the problem at the source, and that is the system we are living in. We are all part of it when we take up a mortgage, when we buy a useless new car, or an even more useless hi tech gadget.
I'm sorry to say that all of this is a logical consequence of a well estabilished system, and we are in no position to change it.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well it's a version of capitalism. Left on there own without interference, markets will come up with all sorts of perverse and self destructive schemes; look at the collapse of the banking system. Not exactly a great ad for unrestrained markets.
P2F is not as great an idea for the airlines as they think it is. Not all have a job that pilots want to buy. Worst of all (for the airlines), if the aim is to get pilot income levels down, P2F schemes would not be viable as there would be fewer pilots willing to pay through the nose if peak Captain earnings were £40k
P2F is not as great an idea for the airlines as they think it is. Not all have a job that pilots want to buy. Worst of all (for the airlines), if the aim is to get pilot income levels down, P2F schemes would not be viable as there would be fewer pilots willing to pay through the nose if peak Captain earnings were £40k
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bringbackthe80s
Maybe it's time to bring back the 70s. Strikes and militant buggers like red robbo and Bob Crowe
Physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Maybe it's time to bring back the 70s. Strikes and militant buggers like red robbo and Bob Crowe
Physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sand free now
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bringbackthe80s. It is not capitalism pure and simple. Every company in every industry in the western world is working within a capitalist system but they do not all screw their workforce to maximise profit. It is airlines with their partners who have deliberately created an over supply of pilot fodder whilst making a profit doing it then using that over supply to screw the rest. That is market manipulation and is exactly what did for the finance industry in the end.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
30k for an embraer145 type rating, you would need to be smoking crack to think that's a good investment.
Ryanair is starting to look like a reasonable option now and I never thought I'd say that!
Ryanair is starting to look like a reasonable option now and I never thought I'd say that!
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bringbackthe80s. It is not capitalism pure and simple. Every company in every industry in the western world is working within a capitalist system but they do not all screw their workforce to maximise profit. It is airlines with their partners who have deliberately created an over supply of pilot fodder whilst making a profit doing it then using that over supply to screw the rest. That is market manipulation and is exactly what did for the finance industry in the end.
And frankly, when you have a little glimpse at these realities, then pay to fly as bad as it is, comes at least well after other problems doesn't it...And like I said before all of these things are a consequence of the same source, they are all connected. You can't fight pay to fly under the very system that encourages it.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly low hour pilots.
BA for many years sponsored and then employed cadets without any problems at all. These cadets finished integrated courses with a fatpl and sub 300 ( now I belive sub 200) hours. They went on to be employed as fo on potentially any of the ba fleets, eventually gaining commands all without any problems.
Low hours by itself is not the problem, its the training environment and the company culture that counts.
Giles - single pilot commercial operations are inevitable a higher risk, possibly streaching it a bit, but like natural selection, the survivors have good skills and luck those who don't generally die out.
Sadly the opportunities for getting on such schemes is minimal, the traditional routes in Europe are now dead ends and so the only practical way into aviation is through the various schemes operated by the schools and certain airlines. That many of the schemes are ripoffs and exploitation, that the majority here disagree with, is immaterial. They are here to stay barring legislation forcing companies to change their hiring policies.
P2F - are we able after X many pages able to agree on what is p2f?
For all these paying means candidate buys product paying full fees themselves through cash or loan with no money returned after completion. Salary does not count as mon3y returned.
Paying for initial training to FATPL level?
Paying for type rating?
Paying for line training?
Paying for 500 hours?
Paying for type rating but refunded payment after a period of time eg 3 years?
Reduced salary during training?
Short term contracts for non type rated fo's? Eg 6months usually in combination with most of the above!
Thoughts ideas welcome.
BA for many years sponsored and then employed cadets without any problems at all. These cadets finished integrated courses with a fatpl and sub 300 ( now I belive sub 200) hours. They went on to be employed as fo on potentially any of the ba fleets, eventually gaining commands all without any problems.
Low hours by itself is not the problem, its the training environment and the company culture that counts.
Giles - single pilot commercial operations are inevitable a higher risk, possibly streaching it a bit, but like natural selection, the survivors have good skills and luck those who don't generally die out.
Sadly the opportunities for getting on such schemes is minimal, the traditional routes in Europe are now dead ends and so the only practical way into aviation is through the various schemes operated by the schools and certain airlines. That many of the schemes are ripoffs and exploitation, that the majority here disagree with, is immaterial. They are here to stay barring legislation forcing companies to change their hiring policies.
P2F - are we able after X many pages able to agree on what is p2f?
For all these paying means candidate buys product paying full fees themselves through cash or loan with no money returned after completion. Salary does not count as mon3y returned.
Paying for initial training to FATPL level?
Paying for type rating?
Paying for line training?
Paying for 500 hours?
Paying for type rating but refunded payment after a period of time eg 3 years?
Reduced salary during training?
Short term contracts for non type rated fo's? Eg 6months usually in combination with most of the above!
Thoughts ideas welcome.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is not exactly PTF.
In the "good old days" only 1 in 7 (for my company) or 1 in 10, or whatever, of finalists in airline interviewing got a job!
(Maybe 1 in 50-100 of initial applicants)
The others flew for "lesser" carriers or gave up and became lawyers, bankers etc.
These days anyone with the money and a pulse can get a job.
Hopefully the rash of "just cannot fly" accidents around the world will gradually bring change.
In the "good old days" only 1 in 7 (for my company) or 1 in 10, or whatever, of finalists in airline interviewing got a job!
(Maybe 1 in 50-100 of initial applicants)
The others flew for "lesser" carriers or gave up and became lawyers, bankers etc.
These days anyone with the money and a pulse can get a job.
Hopefully the rash of "just cannot fly" accidents around the world will gradually bring change.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PT6
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well. But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military. The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
As I said, any statement regarding them as safe can only be made when a full,audit of ASR and QAR safety data confirms this. How many issues/incidents are put into the ongoing training to final line check or flight ops errors that are headed off by the experienced captains.
Just because we don't here horror stories doesn't mean all is perfect. For balance I will say that experienced guys may well have issues as well. Only the data knows the full story.
Firstly low hour pilots.
BA for many years sponsored and then employed cadets without any problems at all. These cadets finished integrated courses with a fatpl and sub 300 ( now I belive sub 200) hours. They went on to be employed as fo on potentially any of the ba fleets, eventually gaining commands all without any problems.
Low hours by itself is not the problem, its the training environment and the company culture that counts.
Giles - single pilot commercial operations are inevitable a higher risk, possibly streaching it a bit, but like natural selection, the survivors have good skills and luck those who don't generally die out.
Sadly the opportunities for getting on such schemes is minimal, the traditional routes in Europe are now dead ends and so the only practical way into aviation is through the various schemes operated by the schools and certain airlines. That many of the schemes are ripoffs and exploitation, that the majority here disagree with, is immaterial. They are here to stay barring legislation forcing companies to change their hiring policies.
P2F - are we able after X many pages able to agree on what is p2f?
For all these paying means candidate buys product paying full fees themselves through cash or loan with no money returned after completion. Salary does not count as mon3y returned.
Paying for initial training to FATPL level?
Paying for type rating?
Paying for line training?
Paying for 500 hours?
Paying for type rating but refunded payment after a period of time eg 3 years?
Reduced salary during training?
Short term contracts for non type rated fo's? Eg 6months usually in combination with most of the above!
Thoughts ideas welcome.
BA for many years sponsored and then employed cadets without any problems at all. These cadets finished integrated courses with a fatpl and sub 300 ( now I belive sub 200) hours. They went on to be employed as fo on potentially any of the ba fleets, eventually gaining commands all without any problems.
Low hours by itself is not the problem, its the training environment and the company culture that counts.
Giles - single pilot commercial operations are inevitable a higher risk, possibly streaching it a bit, but like natural selection, the survivors have good skills and luck those who don't generally die out.
Sadly the opportunities for getting on such schemes is minimal, the traditional routes in Europe are now dead ends and so the only practical way into aviation is through the various schemes operated by the schools and certain airlines. That many of the schemes are ripoffs and exploitation, that the majority here disagree with, is immaterial. They are here to stay barring legislation forcing companies to change their hiring policies.
P2F - are we able after X many pages able to agree on what is p2f?
For all these paying means candidate buys product paying full fees themselves through cash or loan with no money returned after completion. Salary does not count as mon3y returned.
Paying for initial training to FATPL level?
Paying for type rating?
Paying for line training?
Paying for 500 hours?
Paying for type rating but refunded payment after a period of time eg 3 years?
Reduced salary during training?
Short term contracts for non type rated fo's? Eg 6months usually in combination with most of the above!
Thoughts ideas welcome.
As I said, any statement regarding them as safe can only be made when a full,audit of ASR and QAR safety data confirms this. How many issues/incidents are put into the ongoing training to final line check or flight ops errors that are headed off by the experienced captains.
Just because we don't here horror stories doesn't mean all is perfect. For balance I will say that experienced guys may well have issues as well. Only the data knows the full story.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: easaland
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the edge of reason
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point of order Mr D & F,
Whilst BA is, indeed, recruiting cadets they are not SOLELY recruiting cadets. New DEP's are currently undergoing conversion courses at BA onto B747-400.
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well. But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military. The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bengerman, maybe English isn't your first language or you have drinking, but point of order, I never said BA exclusively took cadets. Only that they have taken cadets.
I know many who have gone there.
Got to love forums.....not
I know many who have gone there.
Got to love forums.....not
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
D and F
You said
Then you said
I think you owe Bengerman an apology as your first statement reads that ba is only currently taking in cadets.
If we agree that it is ok for cadets to be recruited by organisations with high standards then presumably we are in agreement that the likes of lion air do not meet the same standards? The Indonesian authorities dont think so either as they now ( I belive) insist on 1500 hours experience.
The Air Baltic scheme certainly ticks all the boxes for p2f in my book.
You said
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well. But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military. The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
Bengerman, maybe English isn't your first language or you have drinking, but point of order, I never said BA exclusively took cadets. Only that they have taken cadets.*
If we agree that it is ok for cadets to be recruited by organisations with high standards then presumably we are in agreement that the likes of lion air do not meet the same standards? The Indonesian authorities dont think so either as they now ( I belive) insist on 1500 hours experience.
The Air Baltic scheme certainly ticks all the boxes for p2f in my book.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well. But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military. The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
As I said, any statement regarding them as safe can only be made when a full,audit of ASR and QAR safety data confirms this. How many issues/incidents are put into the ongoing training to final line check or flight ops errors that are headed off by the experienced captains.
As I said, any statement regarding them as safe can only be made when a full,audit of ASR and QAR safety data confirms this. How many issues/incidents are put into the ongoing training to final line check or flight ops errors that are headed off by the experienced captains.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Montréal
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Operational use of flight path management system
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...mendations.pdf
Other factors relating to design process considerations involve the changing pilot force. For example, operators and manufacturers believe that pilot experience and proficiency are declining globally. Worldwide, ab initio pilots are being introduced into transport category flight decks more frequently and operators report increased training loads and dropout rates. Operators report that the pilots entering the workforce have high levels of computer skills but some may not have the robust aviation background and aeronautical experience that current pilots have from actual flight experience. The manufacturers understand the changes in the pilot workforce but may not yet assess their flight deck designs to address these changes. In the interim, some of the proposed mitigations include proceduralization (by some operators or manufacturers) and increased automation of tasks and functions (by some manufacturers). Each of these mitigations has potential for unintended consequences.
Changes in new-hire pilot flight experience and training background from military and
civil aviation to collegiate level programs that overall has reduced the average flight time
but has increased the number of new entry pilots that have completed comprehensive,
highly structured programs that often includes experience in the advanced flight deck
technology.
Global aviation expansion and growth have resulted in a high demand worldwide for
pilots, producing a perception that overall aeronautical flight experience12 levels for
entry-level pilots may be decreasing in some high growth regions.
Modern aircraft system capability and reliability have contributed to a significant
reduction in commercial aircraft accidents. Commercial aviation is the safest it has ever
been
civil aviation to collegiate level programs that overall has reduced the average flight time
but has increased the number of new entry pilots that have completed comprehensive,
highly structured programs that often includes experience in the advanced flight deck
technology.
Global aviation expansion and growth have resulted in a high demand worldwide for
pilots, producing a perception that overall aeronautical flight experience12 levels for
entry-level pilots may be decreasing in some high growth regions.
Modern aircraft system capability and reliability have contributed to a significant
reduction in commercial aircraft accidents. Commercial aviation is the safest it has ever
been
The demographics and experience of the aviation workforce will also change considerably.
Retirements and attrition in some regions and growth in others will strain the available talent
pool and challenge normal recruiting practices. In addition, concern was expressed that aviation as a career field is not as appealing as in years past. These factors are leading to a concern that a significant pilot shortage is imminent.
When entering their aviation career, the new generation of personnel is expected to bring high
levels of computer skills but some may not have the robust aviation background and aeronautical experience that current pilots have from actual flight experience. However, great improvements have been made in collegiate and academy training programs which include comprehensive, high quality, and structured training that help develop aeronautical experience. Future pilots will require improved computer aptitude suited for many advanced operations and automation tools, as well as a broad aviation experience and fundamental knowledge and skills, including manual flying, spatial awareness, decision making, and understanding of aircraft performance.
Retirements and attrition in some regions and growth in others will strain the available talent
pool and challenge normal recruiting practices. In addition, concern was expressed that aviation as a career field is not as appealing as in years past. These factors are leading to a concern that a significant pilot shortage is imminent.
When entering their aviation career, the new generation of personnel is expected to bring high
levels of computer skills but some may not have the robust aviation background and aeronautical experience that current pilots have from actual flight experience. However, great improvements have been made in collegiate and academy training programs which include comprehensive, high quality, and structured training that help develop aeronautical experience. Future pilots will require improved computer aptitude suited for many advanced operations and automation tools, as well as a broad aviation experience and fundamental knowledge and skills, including manual flying, spatial awareness, decision making, and understanding of aircraft performance.
When these complex procedures are combined with policies that encourage use of automated systems over manual operations and monitoring of pilots to ensure that they comply with those policies, it may encourage pilots to over-rely on those systems. When there is insufficient training, experience, or judgment, this reliance on the automated systems can aggravate and adversely affect the situation.
One important potential consequence is that pilots may not be prepared to handle non-routine
situations, such as malfunctions or off-nominal conditions.
One important potential consequence is that pilots may not be prepared to handle non-routine
situations, such as malfunctions or off-nominal conditions.
There are open questions about the appropriate level of proceduralization, including how prescriptive and detailed the procedures are, and how comprehensive they should be. Sometimes procedures are used as mitigation for insufficient pilot experience, knowledge and skills. As a result, vulnerabilities may occur because procedures cannot cover all possible operational situations and circumstances. If the operation is excessively reliant on procedures, the pilots may not be prepared for unexpected or non-routine situations. In addition, the LOSA data and interview feedback suggest that overly prescriptive SOPs may be less likely to be followed.
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt; 3rd Feb 2015 at 00:15.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I said that they have taken cadets. Where did I say they only took or have only taken cadets in the past? To make things simple for you, for instance, take the statement "I have drunk wine"
But this doesn't mean I've never had, don't currently and never will drink beer. God knows you two are enough to drive anyone to drink!
To put my original statement back in context as it was made, the discussion was about the risk of 200hrs pilots and I made that statement as a point of balance that its not just the low cost companies that take low hour pilots. And it can be done in a way to mitigate risk factors
Maybe he owes me an apologee. If your still unsure there is some bedtime reading below for you.
Definition of have
have - Wiktionary
Bealzebub, I have never criticised BA cadet training. If anything it was a model to be followed. But not exclusively. Choose the best and give them a career in return. The curent low co model is see who can pay and offer them a sub standard contract and see who is left.
But this doesn't mean I've never had, don't currently and never will drink beer. God knows you two are enough to drive anyone to drink!
To put my original statement back in context as it was made, the discussion was about the risk of 200hrs pilots and I made that statement as a point of balance that its not just the low cost companies that take low hour pilots. And it can be done in a way to mitigate risk factors
Maybe he owes me an apologee. If your still unsure there is some bedtime reading below for you.
Definition of have
have - Wiktionary
Bealzebub, I have never criticised BA cadet training. If anything it was a model to be followed. But not exclusively. Choose the best and give them a career in return. The curent low co model is see who can pay and offer them a sub standard contract and see who is left.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the edge of reason
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PT6 Driver, thanks for trying!
D & F. We'll take it one step at a time so that my English is not too difficult for you.
All from the same paragraph..
Correct, no problem with that.
No real issue there although it could be argued that, particularly in the Prestwick years, the cadets were actually a large force.
However,
Wrong, and that was my initial point, you clearly stated that the current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
FYI English is my first language, unfortunately I had not been drinking and your manners are appalling.
D & F. We'll take it one step at a time so that my English is not too difficult for you.
All from the same paragraph..
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well.
But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military.
However,
The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
FYI English is my first language, unfortunately I had not been drinking and your manners are appalling.