Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
For anyone with a foot on the LH ladder it is certainly good. But the signs are that for everyone else it will be at best a longish wait at Eurowings as it is called this week and that certainly involves 320 multileg days for the foreseable future.
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Here is a link to Baltic Aviation Academy's website, and this how they justify P2F. In my opinion it is absolute unadulterated rubbish, and how and why people believe it is beyond me.
Line Training: to pay or not to pay?
Line Training: to pay or not to pay?
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Moroccan pilots
Hi, I'm a Moroccan student pilot and I'm very upset with this situatio because I can't work in my own country. Royal Air Maroc imposes very hard requirements to Moroccans candidates and many pilots are sitted waiting to have an opportunity in Air Arabia. However, RAM have a lot of foreign F/O in their 737 and ATR who paid for a Line Training !!
I can't understand this situation. I'm afraid to leave my country forever.
I can't understand this situation. I'm afraid to leave my country forever.
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I can't understand this situation. I'm afraid to leave my country forever.
Royal Air Maroc imposes very hard requirements to Moroccans candidates and many pilots are sitted waiting to have an opportunity in Air Arabia. However, RAM have a lot of foreign F/O in their 737 and ATR who paid for a Line Training !!
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Kalim, it is the same situation in others countries.(except North America)
In Asia for exemple (Vietnam, China...), you would pay money to fly or even to upgrade from F/O to Captain.
Just yesterday, I received a resume and letter (actually it's not the first time that I read such propositions ),
a guy wrote that he does not have money to pay the LT however he is ready to fly without income in exchange for a few months or so according to the amount of the LT.
He is not even interesting for us since we still have others pilots willing to pay.
I do not really approve the P2F but as I notice from there now, pilots are their own ennemies after all...so... when you read cover letters, your first face would be then and when you get used to it :
In Asia for exemple (Vietnam, China...), you would pay money to fly or even to upgrade from F/O to Captain.
Just yesterday, I received a resume and letter (actually it's not the first time that I read such propositions ),
a guy wrote that he does not have money to pay the LT however he is ready to fly without income in exchange for a few months or so according to the amount of the LT.
He is not even interesting for us since we still have others pilots willing to pay.
I do not really approve the P2F but as I notice from there now, pilots are their own ennemies after all...so... when you read cover letters, your first face would be then and when you get used to it :
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Gilles,
You wrote:
In the 17th and 18th century, many armies were led by officers that had not gained their military commissions through merit and experience, but paid for them. There was a price to become a Lieutenant, a Captain, a Major, a Colonel, not only to join the military, but also to get promotions once you were in. The richer people were always in command of the poor. This practice of selling military commissions has ceased in most modern countries now. Anyone care to take a wild guess on why this practice has ceased ?,
Wild guess? Well has it ceased? In 'modern' countries? For my money, any one that pays for a battle commission is welcome to the fate of their decision, though George Washington did get to keep the farm at Mt. Vernon.
During the period you mention, there were no standing armies. Company officers recruited private (for pay) soldiers in times that required "defense". Voluntary milita was largely without stipend. Today, however, every 'nation' seems to have one ...i.e. standing military force (Costa Rica is now one notable peaceful exception)
Today we (the poor taxpayers) pay an exorbitant amount for initial (even more for advanced) training for military pilots, and yet you seem to suggest that any young inexperienced guy or girl who wants to pay the market rate to change his or her profession voluntarily should be excluded from the industry by forceful regulation? That did not even work in 'modern' times. Former USSR springs to mind.
Governments will always distort markets, and as you know airlines love military pilots, who of course are extremely well trained. From an airlines point of view government training is simply a most welcome "P2F" taxpayer subsidy.
On the military note, now that almost every country has a permanent big swinging d..k..one, ..oddly enough......we seem to have a lot more wars.
You wrote:
In the 17th and 18th century, many armies were led by officers that had not gained their military commissions through merit and experience, but paid for them. There was a price to become a Lieutenant, a Captain, a Major, a Colonel, not only to join the military, but also to get promotions once you were in. The richer people were always in command of the poor. This practice of selling military commissions has ceased in most modern countries now. Anyone care to take a wild guess on why this practice has ceased ?,
Wild guess? Well has it ceased? In 'modern' countries? For my money, any one that pays for a battle commission is welcome to the fate of their decision, though George Washington did get to keep the farm at Mt. Vernon.
During the period you mention, there were no standing armies. Company officers recruited private (for pay) soldiers in times that required "defense". Voluntary milita was largely without stipend. Today, however, every 'nation' seems to have one ...i.e. standing military force (Costa Rica is now one notable peaceful exception)
Today we (the poor taxpayers) pay an exorbitant amount for initial (even more for advanced) training for military pilots, and yet you seem to suggest that any young inexperienced guy or girl who wants to pay the market rate to change his or her profession voluntarily should be excluded from the industry by forceful regulation? That did not even work in 'modern' times. Former USSR springs to mind.
Governments will always distort markets, and as you know airlines love military pilots, who of course are extremely well trained. From an airlines point of view government training is simply a most welcome "P2F" taxpayer subsidy.
On the military note, now that almost every country has a permanent big swinging d..k..one, ..oddly enough......we seem to have a lot more wars.
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IS GRan Cru Airlines, in Vilnius Lithuania, just 3 A/C, 1 -300 and 2-400,
If I was you, I will stay very far away from this crap!
If I was you, I will stay very far away from this crap!
How exactly are the airlines responsible for this, they are not forcing anybody to do anything.
The people responsible for this are the people who are stupid enough to pay for working, if everybody stopped paying this would simply come to an end.
I would never pay to work, I get paid well for my time on the job.
The people responsible for this are the people who are stupid enough to pay for working, if everybody stopped paying this would simply come to an end.
I would never pay to work, I get paid well for my time on the job.
And as long as there are, they ruin Ts&Cs for the rest of the industry.
The airlines are businesses and businesses tend to lack ethics, they're very short sighted when it comes to "the right thing to do" and instead get distracted by money.
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Pay2fly schemes have been recognized as having an adverse affect on aviation safety in an EU Commission funded, 310-page report on Atypical Employment in Aviation (large file) – Link:
https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf
Incorrect. Unless you hold the applicable type rating you will not fly for Norwegian unless you hand over 30-40K. No pay, no fly, i.e. a pay2fly scheme - and who benefits from the interest on the 1.2 million Euros being held from such payments to fly for Norwegian?
Correct. This is why the Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies) was negotiated to include a ‘social clause’ - Article 17, which states labor rights and labor principles shall not be undermined by the participants. A petition on these grounds is has been filed in the Washington DC Court of Appeals against the DOT and its egregious decision to award Norwegian a Foreign Air Carrier permit.
https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf
Currently no British airline offers P2F contracts
The airlines are businesses and businesses tend to lack ethics, they're very short sighted when it comes to "the right thing to do" and instead get distracted by money
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Does paying for your own type-rating with no guarantee of a job count? You could scrape past the LST at your own cost only to fail the base training within the allocated time and end up with no type rating or job. If you do pass these hurdles does working on a reduced salary during line training, and having to pay all your own expenses, count as paying to fly.
If so I think you'll find the net is wider than you surmise, but stealthily.
If so I think you'll find the net is wider than you surmise, but stealthily.
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Bondi, NAS is NOT PAY TO FLY and never has been.. PTF mean you pay them to fly the a/c and they give you nothing in return.. unless I'm mistaken NAS crews have always received remuneration.. whichever source it comes from. Paying a bond or type rating is not regarded as ptf
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We all know that is not what pay2fly is.
It is specifically paying for your line training or paying to fly a set number of hours with passengers onboard. Let's not muddy a very clear boundary.
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Pilots pay for necessary qualifications via an ATO or similar. No commitment to the training organization is required.
Possibly not pay2fly as known. The Norwegian scheme is effectively a 30-40K indentured servitude from the non-rated. Do the indentured receive interest over the 3-year repayment period or nothing in the form of interest in return?
Rishworth currently holds Euros 1.2 million in ‘pay before flying’ payments on behalf of its West Sussex village subsidiary, Global Crew UK – read Full Accounts up to 31 March, 2016, Section 9 - Link:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history
Once again, who benefits from the interest on the 1.2 million?
Possibly not pay2fly as known. The Norwegian scheme is effectively a 30-40K indentured servitude from the non-rated. Do the indentured receive interest over the 3-year repayment period or nothing in the form of interest in return?
Rishworth currently holds Euros 1.2 million in ‘pay before flying’ payments on behalf of its West Sussex village subsidiary, Global Crew UK – read Full Accounts up to 31 March, 2016, Section 9 - Link:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history
Once again, who benefits from the interest on the 1.2 million?
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Bondi, although in the past you have made some valid observations I think this "interest " issue is diluting your credibility somewhat, if 1.2M euros is held in a " Client " account, as legally required in EU, at current interest rates of .05% that would yield 600 euro a year interest. Divide that by 40 pilots is 15 Euros a pilot, lee the cost of a bank transfer to get it.. If you examine the accounts in detail you will not there is no mention of interest received.
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Bondi, although in the past you have made some valid observations I think this "interest " issue is diluting your credibility somewhat, if 1.2M euros is held in a " Client " account, as legally required in EU, at current interest rates of .05% that would yield 600 euro a year interest. Divide that by 40 pilots is 15 Euros a pilot, lee the cost of a bank transfer to get it.. If you examine the accounts in detail you will not there is no mention of interest received.
The “interest” is indeed an issue, particularly for those paying rather than receiving interest.
The vast majority of pilots will not have 30-40K readily available for Norwegian’s ‘pay before flying’ scheme. Several UK banks currently offer a 35K loan at 7.3% interest with GBP 1,081 monthly payments (x36 months, 40K total repayment).
The Global Crew declared 1.2 million in ‘pay before flying’ cash may not be held the EU. If so, it is not subject to EU regulations:-
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history
Global Crew Filing history – 4 August 2016 - Section 9 states:
“These funds are held by the Company’s parent undertaking, Rishworth Aviation Ltd, on behalf of Global Crew UK Ltd.”
Section 14 states:
“The Company [Global Crew UK Ltd.] does not have a bank account, therefore, all income and expenditures are collected or incurred by other group companies”
The person having “significant control” of Global UK Ltd, is located in New Zealand:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...43804/officers
So, while “someone” may be collecting huge amounts in interest on over a million in ‘pay before flying’ payments held outside the EU, the chumps that handed over 30-40K receive no interest whatsoever, but have GBP 1,081 monthly payments for three years at 7.3% interest – with no direct employment relationship and associated labor rights with the airline!
At least try to get some of the facts right Bondi.
It's 30000 euros not pounds. So about 26000 pounds.
And you're doing really really badly if you're only able to get a loan at 7.3 percent. I did a very quick search and 3.3 seemed to be much more representative.
But hey never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
And no I don't work for Norwegian or Rishworth or OSM. Never have. But the picture you try to paint is very different from the one my friends who do actually work there. No it's not perfect but it's not Pay to Fly.
It's 30000 euros not pounds. So about 26000 pounds.
And you're doing really really badly if you're only able to get a loan at 7.3 percent. I did a very quick search and 3.3 seemed to be much more representative.
But hey never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
And no I don't work for Norwegian or Rishworth or OSM. Never have. But the picture you try to paint is very different from the one my friends who do actually work there. No it's not perfect but it's not Pay to Fly.
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Well, if you have to give the company that "hires" you money, it is pay to flay, after all you have to pay them first. Real employers pay you first, they still might insist on a bond, but that is not money up front, only have to pay that if you leave earlier than the bond expires. Over here more than 12 months would probably not hold in a court of law, although some CLAs have 24 months in them.