Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
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I don't believe there is any deadline as such, I just hope that Norwegian (the company ) realise that this is "end-game" for screwing over their employees/failing to honour agreements/ trying to forlornly imitate Ryanair.
If they do, this will all be done & dusted fairly easily, if not. . . . . well, they have as much if not more to lose than us, and losing to us matters less, as we are only losing a future in that case where we are annually beaten down ever & ever further into third world conditions.
If they do, this will all be done & dusted fairly easily, if not. . . . . well, they have as much if not more to lose than us, and losing to us matters less, as we are only losing a future in that case where we are annually beaten down ever & ever further into third world conditions.
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There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.
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All you Jet2 boys - Meeson is a mate of Kjos so don't come along moaning when Big Phil issues your new contracts.... Has honour deserted everyone who is flying the 
DY flights in the Scandi area?
Bad show.
DY flights in the Scandi area?Bad show.
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So they/we/I have to get signed off for being mentally unfit?
Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.
It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.
Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.
It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.
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I don't believe there is any deadline as such
don't underestimate what a clever
BK is...he's operating in grey areas of labor law.
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deptrai,
a bit "selective" your cut & paste
whose side are you actually on Mate ?
This is the "uncut" version from the "Norwegian" version of the letter . As I said on a previous post, the company are not allowed by law to exercise any effective control over anyone on strike. . .so, the "generous" offer is automatically deferred/null & void for anyone actually on strike.
"Please note that you have a right to object to your employment being transferred to Pilot Services Norway AS, cf. the Norwegian Employment Act Section 16-3 (the right of reservation). The right of reservation implies that you may leave NAN regardless of your notice period, and consequently that your employment with NAN is terminated as of the transfer date. Should you choose to exercise your right of reservation, you must notify Pilot Services Norway AS thereof, within 14 days from the receipt of this letter. "
I do rather old chap, harbour some suspicions as regard your provenence/motives.
itsnotwhoyouknow There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.. . . . exactly, & many have recently made wise choices.
Lord Spandex Masher So they/we/I have to get signed off for being mentally unfit?
Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.
It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.
You do exaggerate slightly. . . if your child was killed in a road accident, or you saw some motorcyclist mutilated by a Bus on the way to work, would I brand you a Loony ? Similarly, if you are asked to walk by your colleagues, standing in line in OSL, to operate their flight, would you not feel a little too "distracted" to fly. . .or are you "a bigger man" than that
a bit "selective" your cut & paste
whose side are you actually on Mate ?This is the "uncut" version from the "Norwegian" version of the letter . As I said on a previous post, the company are not allowed by law to exercise any effective control over anyone on strike. . .so, the "generous" offer is automatically deferred/null & void for anyone actually on strike.
"Please note that you have a right to object to your employment being transferred to Pilot Services Norway AS, cf. the Norwegian Employment Act Section 16-3 (the right of reservation). The right of reservation implies that you may leave NAN regardless of your notice period, and consequently that your employment with NAN is terminated as of the transfer date. Should you choose to exercise your right of reservation, you must notify Pilot Services Norway AS thereof, within 14 days from the receipt of this letter. "
I do rather old chap, harbour some suspicions as regard your provenence/motives.
itsnotwhoyouknow There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.. . . . exactly, & many have recently made wise choices.
Lord Spandex Masher So they/we/I have to get signed off for being mentally unfit?
Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.
It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.
You do exaggerate slightly. . . if your child was killed in a road accident, or you saw some motorcyclist mutilated by a Bus on the way to work, would I brand you a Loony ? Similarly, if you are asked to walk by your colleagues, standing in line in OSL, to operate their flight, would you not feel a little too "distracted" to fly. . .or are you "a bigger man" than that
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My motives for what?
What, exactly, am I exaggerating?
Are you suggesting I should react to the violent loss of my child's life in a road accident and the Norwegian situation with the same level of grief?
What, exactly, am I exaggerating?
Are you suggesting I should react to the violent loss of my child's life in a road accident and the Norwegian situation with the same level of grief?
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Unless you are one & the same person as deptrai, I believe once I had got my post edited correctly the query over motives was directed at him.
The accusation of exaggerating, is that no-one is suggesting being "mentally unfit".
I think it is fairly obvious that anyone (with any scruples/spine) could not walk past a picket line of colleagues, who are defending both their & your conditions ( & please don't start to query that, as they are actually defending the rights of every airline pilot in Europe . . .if you take the time to think it through ) to then enter a Crewroom eerily empty, except for stony faced Cabin Crew, who, whilst not on strike, remember the support they received from the Based pilots during their recent troubles , and then be expected to "erase" that & have a normal day. (It can't really be, as colleagues who have had to, have found a strange lack of coffee during their shift )
Do you seriously think that anyone with some iota of conscience/empathy with their fellow pilots can do this & devote 100% of the attention required to the job in hand. . . or, as I said, are you " a bigger man" & we are all/lefty namby pambies. ?
Perhaps we are, but we will possibly be displaying more spinal structure than anyone who just wanders in & blasts off as if nothing is amiss.
No, it is not the same as the "extreme" examples I quoted, but, I believe it is quite enough to be major distraction, and a very "fair" reason, to report "unfit to fly". . . if one is so minded. . . . . maybe YOU are not (sorry for you
)
The accusation of exaggerating, is that no-one is suggesting being "mentally unfit".
I think it is fairly obvious that anyone (with any scruples/spine) could not walk past a picket line of colleagues, who are defending both their & your conditions ( & please don't start to query that, as they are actually defending the rights of every airline pilot in Europe . . .if you take the time to think it through ) to then enter a Crewroom eerily empty, except for stony faced Cabin Crew, who, whilst not on strike, remember the support they received from the Based pilots during their recent troubles , and then be expected to "erase" that & have a normal day. (It can't really be, as colleagues who have had to, have found a strange lack of coffee during their shift )
Do you seriously think that anyone with some iota of conscience/empathy with their fellow pilots can do this & devote 100% of the attention required to the job in hand. . . or, as I said, are you " a bigger man" & we are all
/lefty namby pambies. ?Perhaps we are, but we will possibly be displaying more spinal structure than anyone who just wanders in & blasts off as if nothing is amiss.
No, it is not the same as the "extreme" examples I quoted, but, I believe it is quite enough to be major distraction, and a very "fair" reason, to report "unfit to fly". . . if one is so minded. . . . . maybe YOU are not (sorry for you
)
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Perhaps you might realise that I posted before you edited.
Actually mentally unfit is exactly what was suggested.
How would I know what other people's motives are?
And you can stop with all your finger wagging and "bigger man" crap directed at me, all I have done is explain reality - you will notice without opinion.
Actually mentally unfit is exactly what was suggested.
Do you seriously think that anyone...
And you can stop with all your finger wagging and "bigger man" crap directed at me, all I have done is explain reality - you will notice without opinion.
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Lord spandex, being mentally unfit to fly due to feeling pressure from external conditions outside of your normal working day is not being mental. Some situations in life require a broader spectrum of understanding than what you are working to. I for one would not feel comfortable or able to safely operate against friends and colleagues in a picket line, it is not me joining the strike as I would work for my company elsewhere. My refusal to fly out of any scandi country due to my conscience and ability for safe flight in the circumstances would be the same if I was to be deployed to anywhere I felt unsafe to do my job aka the Crimea or anywhere else relevant and current.
Our conditions have been eroded massively over the years and it must have hit rock bottom. So all credit to those standing up. I spoke to some over the past few days and they deserve all our help and gratitude.
Our conditions have been eroded massively over the years and it must have hit rock bottom. So all credit to those standing up. I spoke to some over the past few days and they deserve all our help and gratitude.
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Let's just be clear that it was you who brought up "being mental". I said no such thing.
Good luck with the rest of your post and happy job hunting. I hear China has many opportunities at the moment.
Good luck with the rest of your post and happy job hunting. I hear China has many opportunities at the moment.
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Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
Whilst sympathy strikes are completely illegal in the UK, unlike in other EU countries you can self certify unfit to work up to 7 days. Anything longer in one sitting requires a letter from a medical professional. It doesn't matter whether you have a sprained ankle or a severe mental disorder. No proof is required for the self certification days. More info can be found on both gov.co.uk and NHS choices.
Any employer who attempted to get you for gross misconduct as long as you followed the rules would have their backsides handed to them at employment tribunal before they could spell unfair dismissal. That's not to say that once your cards are marked management at the "employer of choice" wouldn't wait for you to trip up in some other way and use any excuse to haul you over the fires. They're "industry leading" like that.
For the avoidance of doubt I am making no recommendation as to whether any pilot finds them self fit to work or not. That is something they must decide for themselves on a day to day basis. As far as the ANO is concerned if they report for work they are declaring themselves fit at the start of their duty.
Any employer who attempted to get you for gross misconduct as long as you followed the rules would have their backsides handed to them at employment tribunal before they could spell unfair dismissal. That's not to say that once your cards are marked management at the "employer of choice" wouldn't wait for you to trip up in some other way and use any excuse to haul you over the fires. They're "industry leading" like that.
For the avoidance of doubt I am making no recommendation as to whether any pilot finds them self fit to work or not. That is something they must decide for themselves on a day to day basis. As far as the ANO is concerned if they report for work they are declaring themselves fit at the start of their duty.
Last edited by gorter; 7th Mar 2015 at 06:27.
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I am reading this discussion with interest as it would seem that whilst Norwegian is at this point a number of UK airlines may be on the verge of the same path over the course of this summer, so no doubt all of these posts and discussions are very close to home for many.
I have to agree with the comments made regarding mentally unfit etc, I don't have personal experience but I have colleagues who do and I can confirm this is a can of worms you don't really want to open, the time span in getting back to work is not a minimal one, you're probably talking circa 3 months.
The post about self certification and sickness is spot on, no UK employer can force you to get a sick note for sickness of less than 7 days, however likewise there would be nothing to stop an employer to dismiss/suspend an employee that did so if they suspected it was a sympathy strike, so, yes they would lose at tribunal, probably have to pay compensation and give you your job back, but that all takes time, how do you and your family fair in the interim, also it's the shock and awe tactic and once word spread they had dismissed/suspended someone for this would others follow suit ?
Most GP's are accommodating, I recall a visit to one in the depths of a summer and they were willing to write me a note when I explained how unreasonable my employer was, this was my insurance in the event I got questioned about my sickness over a period less than 7 days, it wouldn't then just be my word against theirs.
Fitness for duty means lots of things, fatigue being one, not just because of a busy roster, it could be your children not sleeping, you unable to sleep,your neighbours having a party till 5am, a car alarm going off all night, I think as a profession we report for work on many occasions when we shouldn't.
How many times do you report to work and your colleague is full of cold,"hey, thanks for rocking up and spreading your germs" 3 days later you have it, despite how much barroca and first defence you snort !!
You can rest assured the day something goes wrong and there is even slightest inkling you were not fit for duty it will be put down to pilot error, so, if you're unable to sleep due to worry over the situation which causes you be feel fatigued then you're fatigued, it's that simple, not knowing if your company will survive and worrying about how you would afford your next mortgage payment would keep me up at night !
I wish all Norwegian pilots the very best of luck and resolve in finding a solution that meets the fair aspirations of the workforce.
I have to agree with the comments made regarding mentally unfit etc, I don't have personal experience but I have colleagues who do and I can confirm this is a can of worms you don't really want to open, the time span in getting back to work is not a minimal one, you're probably talking circa 3 months.
The post about self certification and sickness is spot on, no UK employer can force you to get a sick note for sickness of less than 7 days, however likewise there would be nothing to stop an employer to dismiss/suspend an employee that did so if they suspected it was a sympathy strike, so, yes they would lose at tribunal, probably have to pay compensation and give you your job back, but that all takes time, how do you and your family fair in the interim, also it's the shock and awe tactic and once word spread they had dismissed/suspended someone for this would others follow suit ?
Most GP's are accommodating, I recall a visit to one in the depths of a summer and they were willing to write me a note when I explained how unreasonable my employer was, this was my insurance in the event I got questioned about my sickness over a period less than 7 days, it wouldn't then just be my word against theirs.
Fitness for duty means lots of things, fatigue being one, not just because of a busy roster, it could be your children not sleeping, you unable to sleep,your neighbours having a party till 5am, a car alarm going off all night, I think as a profession we report for work on many occasions when we shouldn't.
How many times do you report to work and your colleague is full of cold,"hey, thanks for rocking up and spreading your germs" 3 days later you have it, despite how much barroca and first defence you snort !!
You can rest assured the day something goes wrong and there is even slightest inkling you were not fit for duty it will be put down to pilot error, so, if you're unable to sleep due to worry over the situation which causes you be feel fatigued then you're fatigued, it's that simple, not knowing if your company will survive and worrying about how you would afford your next mortgage payment would keep me up at night !
I wish all Norwegian pilots the very best of luck and resolve in finding a solution that meets the fair aspirations of the workforce.
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Whilst all this 'brothers in arms" stuff is very commendable i doubt it will have any effect in the wider market place.
A few crews carrying out duties for which they can't legally refuse will not save Norwegian from oblivion if this goes on much longer, this strike will have done immense damage to Norwegian's reputation with its customer base and it will last for months, the financial cost must be running into ten's of millions by now, it is unbelievably stupid of the company to let this situation develop let alone continue.
Another few weeks of this and all Norwegian employee's will have the same terms and condition...........zero.......bonkers
A few crews carrying out duties for which they can't legally refuse will not save Norwegian from oblivion if this goes on much longer, this strike will have done immense damage to Norwegian's reputation with its customer base and it will last for months, the financial cost must be running into ten's of millions by now, it is unbelievably stupid of the company to let this situation develop let alone continue.
Another few weeks of this and all Norwegian employee's will have the same terms and condition...........zero.......bonkers
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I think number of flights cancelled is reasonably low now, it is more or less only intra-scandinavian flights affected and even not all of them. DY is keep extending wet leases, at the moment it is until.... Lets say it is not what most of you would be hoping for.
Discussion about reporting sick makes me wonder whether we see pilotless aircraft first or history of reporting sick will be integral part of logbook?
Discussion about reporting sick makes me wonder whether we see pilotless aircraft first or history of reporting sick will be integral part of logbook?
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I think number of flights cancelled is reasonably low now, it is more or less only intra-scandinavian flights affected and even not all of them. DY is keep extending wet leases, at the moment it is until.... Lets say it is not what most of you would be hoping for.
I guess it depends what you want to achieve, if the company continues to operate flights through wet leases, costing it a lot of money, and the passenger disruption is minimal then your costing the company a lot of money, no doubt more than they would actually spend if they worked with the unions.
I don't think successful IA is all about the amount of flights cancelled and measured by disruption to the public.
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captplaystation,
I was aware of the letter you quoted, as well as the one sent to the Danes. In didn't intend to selectively cut and paste, the cropping hampers readability and I apologize for that, but it isn't hard to figure out the full text. I fully agree with you that it's automatically deferred/null & void for anyone on strike, yet I think it's potentially confusing, and that it was an unnecessary move of NAS/NAN in this situation. A lot of people did perceive it as a threat/deadline, particularly the recipients of the swedish version. As for questioning my motives/provenance and whose side I am on, I'm not sure what lead you to question that, so I can't answer you, but I fully support NAS/NAN pilots.
I was aware of the letter you quoted, as well as the one sent to the Danes. In didn't intend to selectively cut and paste, the cropping hampers readability and I apologize for that, but it isn't hard to figure out the full text. I fully agree with you that it's automatically deferred/null & void for anyone on strike, yet I think it's potentially confusing, and that it was an unnecessary move of NAS/NAN in this situation. A lot of people did perceive it as a threat/deadline, particularly the recipients of the swedish version. As for questioning my motives/provenance and whose side I am on, I'm not sure what lead you to question that, so I can't answer you, but I fully support NAS/NAN pilots.