Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually wetleases this time of a year are reasonably cheap - and will continue to be so until end the March - lots of extra capacity on the market (taking widebody was a bit weird to me). Ofcourse there are extra costs on top of that etc but I dont think it is really big trouble maker for DY for a time being and certainly not in a big picture of dealing with unions.
I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those. You loosing the original point - you will not have this job if DY will not exist. Some of you lucky enough would have a job with SK and the rest will be working elsewhere. And nobody stops you to work elsewhere - we are leaving in a free world dont we? Remeber there have been a number of airlines who were successfully destroyed by pilot unions to nobody's benefit.
I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those. You loosing the original point - you will not have this job if DY will not exist. Some of you lucky enough would have a job with SK and the rest will be working elsewhere. And nobody stops you to work elsewhere - we are leaving in a free world dont we? Remeber there have been a number of airlines who were successfully destroyed by pilot unions to nobody's benefit.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way I understand it, this strike is less about T&C's such as money and pensions, and more about fundamental issues like the right to bargain collectively with the "real"/"beneficial" owner/operator, the company that makes decisions, and not a just legal front-end/subsidiary. It's an attempt to stand united against RYR-esque split and conquer union-busting strategies.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CargoOne,
"I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those."
Do you have the faintest idea of the reason behind the strike ? do you know what the company "offer" to the Scandinavian based pilots was ? do you see now that most (but not all of that ) is now on back on the table ? do you also see that the "elephant" in the room is the companies avowed intention to split 650 pilots into 3 smaller groups ? do you have the imagination to see where this will leave them in 1 year (or less) when the next negotiations start ?
In short, it is nice to have the "inside line " from you on "wet-lease"news, but, do you really understand why this is happening, and that maybe , just maybe, it is a rather bigger issue than a bunch of (no doubt you feel pampered/spoiled) Scandi pilots flexing industrial muscle. This conflict is a litmus test for any Unionised company in Europe, and our Boss is in the meantime destroying the small crumbs of credibility he had over his application in the States, and ensuring our losses this year will probably be surpassed in the next. . . . the investors must be wondering about the calibre of management decisions being taken too I would wager.
"I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those."
Do you have the faintest idea of the reason behind the strike ? do you know what the company "offer" to the Scandinavian based pilots was ? do you see now that most (but not all of that ) is now on back on the table ? do you also see that the "elephant" in the room is the companies avowed intention to split 650 pilots into 3 smaller groups ? do you have the imagination to see where this will leave them in 1 year (or less) when the next negotiations start ?
In short, it is nice to have the "inside line " from you on "wet-lease"news, but, do you really understand why this is happening, and that maybe , just maybe, it is a rather bigger issue than a bunch of (no doubt you feel pampered/spoiled) Scandi pilots flexing industrial muscle. This conflict is a litmus test for any Unionised company in Europe, and our Boss is in the meantime destroying the small crumbs of credibility he had over his application in the States, and ensuring our losses this year will probably be surpassed in the next. . . . the investors must be wondering about the calibre of management decisions being taken too I would wager.
Last edited by captplaystation; 7th Mar 2015 at 13:28.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deptrai,
My understanding is there there is no chance to even negotiate about T&C's without the recognition agreement, so fighting to get recognition is by far the biggest and most worthwhile fight, this is About T&C's ...and then some !
Cargoone ? Are you saying if you don't like corporate greed at the expense of pilots conditions you should just move on ? There is always a middle ground to be found, a recognition agreement and trade unions that are worth their salt recognise that and work with employers and employees/members to bring a united solution that works for everyone, without it and with the willingness to RYR the industry the only winners are fat cats and losers those of us who sit in the cupboard at the front
My understanding is there there is no chance to even negotiate about T&C's without the recognition agreement, so fighting to get recognition is by far the biggest and most worthwhile fight, this is About T&C's ...and then some !
Cargoone ? Are you saying if you don't like corporate greed at the expense of pilots conditions you should just move on ? There is always a middle ground to be found, a recognition agreement and trade unions that are worth their salt recognise that and work with employers and employees/members to bring a united solution that works for everyone, without it and with the willingness to RYR the industry the only winners are fat cats and losers those of us who sit in the cupboard at the front
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
back to the negotiations...they started 13:00 yesterday and went home 5.30 (am), after a last pizza delivery, and will be back talking to each other in 30 minutes again, 15:00
(and in parenthesis, on the issue of sympathy strikes, I heard Danish "Serviceforbundet" announced a sympathy strike, which is perfectly legal in Denmark, to start in about 12 days, possibly involving up to 2000 cabin and cockpit crew and 1000 ground staff, including airport security, aimed at blocking flights that replace regular NAS/NAN a/c and pilots)
(and in parenthesis, on the issue of sympathy strikes, I heard Danish "Serviceforbundet" announced a sympathy strike, which is perfectly legal in Denmark, to start in about 12 days, possibly involving up to 2000 cabin and cockpit crew and 1000 ground staff, including airport security, aimed at blocking flights that replace regular NAS/NAN a/c and pilots)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a speculation from an amateur layman,
After all, Kjos has pulled off what's almost impossible, becoming a billionaire in Scandiland.
I would guess that he knows exactly what he is doing. A carefully planned and choreographed manouvre.
Since there are big debts (huge amounts of pax compansations and some bad financial decisions) and hedgecosts for the coming year budgeted for, on the balance of the previous year (2015 costs budgeted in 2014), I think that this is just a manouvre to dump the parts of Norwegian having costs and debts, thus, shafting customers, pilots and suppliers. He will get rid of NPU at the same time. He knows that the lower the price is, the shorter the memory.
I have a feeling that he wants to run the unhealthy (from a beancounters point of view) parts into bancruptcy and then blame the pilots and unions in order not having to face the bad will and the legal liability for his debts. What will be left is a brand new Ryanair. Or will they finally merge?
After all, Kjos has pulled off what's almost impossible, becoming a billionaire in Scandiland.
I would guess that he knows exactly what he is doing. A carefully planned and choreographed manouvre.
Since there are big debts (huge amounts of pax compansations and some bad financial decisions) and hedgecosts for the coming year budgeted for, on the balance of the previous year (2015 costs budgeted in 2014), I think that this is just a manouvre to dump the parts of Norwegian having costs and debts, thus, shafting customers, pilots and suppliers. He will get rid of NPU at the same time. He knows that the lower the price is, the shorter the memory.
I have a feeling that he wants to run the unhealthy (from a beancounters point of view) parts into bancruptcy and then blame the pilots and unions in order not having to face the bad will and the legal liability for his debts. What will be left is a brand new Ryanair. Or will they finally merge?
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: far too low
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
I think TypeIV that you're probably a lot closer to the mark than many would be willing to admit. It's a very calculated move by BK. I'm quite sure he can bury a lot of bad debt in this and walk away scot free
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TypeIV and Gorter, re speculations from an amateur layman, thank you for labelling it as such, imho your speculations are bordering on conspiracy theories (of which there are already too many on PPRuNe). To spell it out, you speculate BK is planning some kind of criminal heist, essentially white-collar bank robbery by defrauding lenders, aka bankruptcy fraud. I think the explanation is far simpler: BK tries to build a clever corporate legal structure to circumvent certain laws (and this is not a crime). He has already done that, by having pilots employed in NAN, NAS is able to wetlease aircraft and use pilots not employed by NAN to break the streak without making it strikebreaking from a legal standpoint. The way I understand it, if pilots were employed by NAS directly, he would not be able to do that (legally). What he already does is a legal grey area, a "creative" legal structure. And his plan is to "perfect" his parent/subsidiary (holding/operating company) structure, with more front-ends to further split pilots, employing them at different T&C's etc, and destroying their abilitities to effectively bargain collectively (and strike). It's a much simpler, and therefor more plausible explanation imho.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
deptrai,
You're welcome, I'm glad to read less cynical theories than mine but with recent moves in fresh memory (treatment of pax, staff, laws, fiddling with taxes and such), my gut feeling resembles what one would feel after too much spicy food
If problems with brakes on an airplane and crews exceeding FDT are force majeure, I think that a bancruptcy preceeded by a serious strike would be claimed the same...
If we could (based on our very limited insight on this matter) right away determine what's legal or not, I'm sure our time would be worth too much to sit here on a gossiping network.
I guess time will tell, for our future's sake I hope that I'm completely wrong.
You're welcome, I'm glad to read less cynical theories than mine but with recent moves in fresh memory (treatment of pax, staff, laws, fiddling with taxes and such), my gut feeling resembles what one would feel after too much spicy food
If problems with brakes on an airplane and crews exceeding FDT are force majeure, I think that a bancruptcy preceeded by a serious strike would be claimed the same...
If we could (based on our very limited insight on this matter) right away determine what's legal or not, I'm sure our time would be worth too much to sit here on a gossiping network.
I guess time will tell, for our future's sake I hope that I'm completely wrong.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll add my 5 cents re treatment of pax, staff, laws, fiddling with taxes and such, "force majeure" etc...I don't doubt he's creative when it comes to circumventing or bending certain civil laws, in a most likely fully "legal" way (yet a grey area as no court has yet looked at some of his practices in detail) however I think he is highly rational and would never consider to risk breaking penal/criminal law. Bankruptcy fraud would be the latter. There are big difference between the two bodies of law:
Civil law redresses wrongs by compelling compensation: the wrongdoer is not punished; he only suffers so much harm as is necessary to make good the wrong he has done. A case needs to be filed by a private party, and the claimant must produce evidence for a judge to find a wrongdoer liable.
In Criminal law on the other hand the object is not to compensate victims but to punish the wrongdoer, police/the government (with all their powers) investigate to find evidence, court cases are filed by the government, prison is an option if the defendant is found guilty.
Creatively bending some civil laws is unlikely to seriously hurt his "baby", the business he built, or himself; quite contrarily, he can probably get some advantages for his business, at a low risk, and make it grow. Most entrepreneurs/owners have strong feelings for the business they built, and wouldn't consciously risk to destroy it and lose everything (unlike some ruthless Enron-type "management" without an ownership interest).
While I don't trust my own understanding of laws a lot, BK as a trained lawyer, although not a practicing specialist in corporate or labor law, has access to very sound specialist legal advice, and I consider it highly unlikely he, at his age and with his background, would make such basic mistakes that would make him a criminal. Again, just my 5 cents.
Civil law redresses wrongs by compelling compensation: the wrongdoer is not punished; he only suffers so much harm as is necessary to make good the wrong he has done. A case needs to be filed by a private party, and the claimant must produce evidence for a judge to find a wrongdoer liable.
In Criminal law on the other hand the object is not to compensate victims but to punish the wrongdoer, police/the government (with all their powers) investigate to find evidence, court cases are filed by the government, prison is an option if the defendant is found guilty.
Creatively bending some civil laws is unlikely to seriously hurt his "baby", the business he built, or himself; quite contrarily, he can probably get some advantages for his business, at a low risk, and make it grow. Most entrepreneurs/owners have strong feelings for the business they built, and wouldn't consciously risk to destroy it and lose everything (unlike some ruthless Enron-type "management" without an ownership interest).
While I don't trust my own understanding of laws a lot, BK as a trained lawyer, although not a practicing specialist in corporate or labor law, has access to very sound specialist legal advice, and I consider it highly unlikely he, at his age and with his background, would make such basic mistakes that would make him a criminal. Again, just my 5 cents.
Last edited by deptrai; 7th Mar 2015 at 16:47.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Norwegian" pilots
The big owner as a person does what he/she sees best.
Meaning that he/she as an entrepeaneur has no other obligations than to get a return for his/hers (and the people who funded his vision of an) investement.
He/she, assisted by previous trailblazer entrepeneurs in very succesful island based lo-co operator/owners moved the goalposts of an entire industry asking for applicants to pay for what used to be in the employers interest to train best available labour, and with your help the got away with it.
For you NAN,NAS,NAX itīs not about a right to organize yourselves, itīs your
duty to participate in cleaning up the mess you decided to take an active part in to create.
Funny how you now rely on the support on the community you yourselves decided needed a makeover contrary to advice given by the industry even tough you decided to be the cheapest available self-funding labour.
Supporting your cause all the way through own and union actions.
That said not one of you clowns who got us/our industry in to this mess will be given a jumpseat, favour or help down the line.
You bought your way in to this business creating this mess on the way, buy your selves out of it.
Meaning that he/she as an entrepeaneur has no other obligations than to get a return for his/hers (and the people who funded his vision of an) investement.
He/she, assisted by previous trailblazer entrepeneurs in very succesful island based lo-co operator/owners moved the goalposts of an entire industry asking for applicants to pay for what used to be in the employers interest to train best available labour, and with your help the got away with it.
For you NAN,NAS,NAX itīs not about a right to organize yourselves, itīs your
duty to participate in cleaning up the mess you decided to take an active part in to create. Funny how you now rely on the support on the community you yourselves decided needed a makeover contrary to advice given by the industry even tough you decided to be the cheapest available self-funding labour.
Supporting your cause all the way through own and union actions.
That said not one of you clowns who got us/our industry in to this mess will be given a jumpseat, favour or help down the line.
You bought your way in to this business creating this mess on the way, buy your selves out of it.
To put NAN or any other pilot-employing subsidiaries into bankruptcy would be very much a nuclear option. Maybe relevant law would permit it, maybe not - my knowledge of bankruptcy law as applied specifically in Norway is nil.
However - this would likely permanently destroy any kind of mutual respect between pilots working for NAN and the parent airline. If BK wants to pull this trigger, he'd better have very serious contingency options available - like having a large pool of pilots ready to start flying at short notice; wet leasing over a prolonged period will be costly when DY has a fleet of its own sitting unused, and may be unattainable over the spring/summer.
Furthermore, if large numbers of flights are cancelled for a long period of time, it will take far far longer and be very expensive to regain the trust of passengers to book with Norwegian as a reliable airline.
Bluster is cheap, and over a number of years much can be done to further BK's interests, but with what is essentially a large company there's only so much that BK can really do in a short period of time without causing damage to his own long-term interests.
However - this would likely permanently destroy any kind of mutual respect between pilots working for NAN and the parent airline. If BK wants to pull this trigger, he'd better have very serious contingency options available - like having a large pool of pilots ready to start flying at short notice; wet leasing over a prolonged period will be costly when DY has a fleet of its own sitting unused, and may be unattainable over the spring/summer.
Furthermore, if large numbers of flights are cancelled for a long period of time, it will take far far longer and be very expensive to regain the trust of passengers to book with Norwegian as a reliable airline.
Bluster is cheap, and over a number of years much can be done to further BK's interests, but with what is essentially a large company there's only so much that BK can really do in a short period of time without causing damage to his own long-term interests.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...one weakness in BK's legal fiction that NAN (or whatever front end) is the legal employer, is that all important decisions seem to be taken by NAS. A court of law may accept that a subsidiary is a separate legal entity if it has some degree of independence, and makes it's own decisions. According to Norwegian law, an employer can decide that employees can no longer self-certify, and ask for a medical certificate from day one if employees are unfit to work...but where was that decision taken in BK's empire? And who communicated the decision? NAS, and NAS again. That might lead a judge to believe that NAS and NAN are one and the same, not really separate, independent entities, and that NAS is the actual employer...
I'm willing to take bets BK will give in at some point.
I'm willing to take bets BK will give in at some point.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope so, but let's not forget that BK is one of the top lawyers in Norway and has had a long career turning the T&C in the shipping industry into a mess. He probably has an ace or two up his sleeve.
I am at a bit of a loss trying to understand, why some are still peddling the 'bankrupt NAN/NAS' plan, when BK has already publicly stated what his intended solution is: Transferring all current NAN staff to three new entities; Pilot Services Denmark, - Norway and - Sweden, effectively splitting an existing pilot group found to be unruly into 3 smaller and separate groups, making the managing of any one conflict at lot easier.
With reference to my previous rant on the egoistical nature of many pilots, and in agreement with a previous poster, there is no doubt the Norwegian pilot group are - to a certain extent - themselves responsible for having to have this fight. Much the same as with RYR, with the obvious difference that RYR pilots have allowed themselves to work under even worse conditions, making any hope of a collective action on their part virtually impossible. But the budding FO didn't care to part with a large wad of dosh, to pay himself into a seat and 500 hours in the book. Neither did the skipper mind setting himself up as a company, 'cause there was a way of being 'creative' with the taxes and social contributions.
In so many words, having been on from ever greater heights for a prolonged period, it's about time the pilot group in one of these, pardon the expression, contractual bottom feeders grew a set and stood up for themselves.
With reference to my previous rant on the egoistical nature of many pilots, and in agreement with a previous poster, there is no doubt the Norwegian pilot group are - to a certain extent - themselves responsible for having to have this fight. Much the same as with RYR, with the obvious difference that RYR pilots have allowed themselves to work under even worse conditions, making any hope of a collective action on their part virtually impossible. But the budding FO didn't care to part with a large wad of dosh, to pay himself into a seat and 500 hours in the book. Neither did the skipper mind setting himself up as a company, 'cause there was a way of being 'creative' with the taxes and social contributions.
In so many words, having been
on from ever greater heights for a prolonged period, it's about time the pilot group in one of these, pardon the expression, contractual bottom feeders grew a set and stood up for themselves.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: above aft cargo compartment
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All credit to the Norwegian pilots for not joining in with this thead. But 
Many did not create this mess and were scandi pilots flying elsewhere in Europe or Indonesia etc. so get off your high horse and and realise we all created this mess or just shut up and sit back down. If you are a pilot in this game for the past 20yrs you sat back and let this happen. If you paid for a rating you let this happen. We all did this. Let's sort this out once and for all and be a part of the greater good. If this fails we are screwed to an extent. Let all grow a pair and take this ride to let's hope better T's&cs.
Many did not create this mess and were scandi pilots flying elsewhere in Europe or Indonesia etc. so get off your high horse and and realise we all created this mess or just shut up and sit back down. If you are a pilot in this game for the past 20yrs you sat back and let this happen. If you paid for a rating you let this happen. We all did this. Let's sort this out once and for all and be a part of the greater good. If this fails we are screwed to an extent. Let all grow a pair and take this ride to let's hope better T's&cs.