Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
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Lord Spandex Masher, I'd assume Scandinavian pilots with a right to vote (for a government) were among those voters who elected governments that create and uphold relatively decent labor laws. Let me cite Stefan Löfven, Swedish Prime Minister, a former trade union chairman, answering a question in parliament what he thinks of the strike: "I think it's despicable to use strikebreakers". Frankly, Scandiland pilots will be quite ok without the help of others, they're capable of helping themselves, and I don't think they're expecting the help of others, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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I wouldn't waste much breath here deptrai, just let the useful idiots play their blame game. Their attitude toward this strike is a fine example of why this industry is headed for certain doom.
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For all Norwegian pilots: Very best for You all and stay strong with Your fight! This fight is going to affect all of us, despite of which airline we are working at. If You break under pressure, other airlines with their managements are going to follow this trend... This could also be "The moment" for all Norwegian pilots from different bases to unite!
Keep up the good work and disregard some strange posters with their very strange opinions concerning this fight!
Keep up the good work and disregard some strange posters with their very strange opinions concerning this fight!
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What very many posters seem to fail to understand is that Norwgian from the start of the transition from a small domestic turboprop operation to an international B737 operator was one of the few places where you could buy a job by paying for your rating.
Most of the guys back then happily joined, buying their job, not really thinking more about it or reflectintg over how the goalposts and standards of an entire industry were moved as typeratings used to be a cost for the employer
at the time. Apparently not caring much either, only happy to join an innovative operator promising a new future for airline transport.
Then the owner/operator decided to move the goalposts again by stopping the hiring into the airline and creating a subcontractorbusiness in to the same flightdecks. Bitching ensued but not to the point where the various European cockpit assosiations and unions were ready and geared to support their colleagues because a deal that didn't affect the initial job-buyers was made.
Given comfortable time to adjust and tune the operation the owner/operator struck again. This time by moving the goalposts by trying to get everyone get under less favourable contracting.
Why not, as any- and everything dished out before was accepted.
Happy to accept any corrections to factual faults in the above.
Now being strange or on high horses might be a matter of perspective I guess.
Strange:
Do I believe that Norwegian core pilots are fighting a battle for the sake of all of us?
Not really, they are mostly getting what they paid for.
Do I support their case?
Definitely. I have no choice and their business is affecting my business.
Funny because I still (sentimental reasons) hold a copy of the polite letter to decline the kind offer to join the Norwegian succes story from more than ten years ago sent when asked to pay for a rating to join a "small but growing company that will take the lead of European skies"
Norwegian (core) pilots not sticking it to the community by buying a rating are easily counted.
Likewise the contributors to this forum who seem to think buying a job makes you a professional instead of a customer.
Most of the followers likewise.
High horses:
Consumer advice/disclaimer
All of the above is written on employer provided hardware on paid time off excluding any of the annual eight weeks vacation, user(s) discretion mandatory.
Most of the guys back then happily joined, buying their job, not really thinking more about it or reflectintg over how the goalposts and standards of an entire industry were moved as typeratings used to be a cost for the employer
at the time. Apparently not caring much either, only happy to join an innovative operator promising a new future for airline transport.
Then the owner/operator decided to move the goalposts again by stopping the hiring into the airline and creating a subcontractorbusiness in to the same flightdecks. Bitching ensued but not to the point where the various European cockpit assosiations and unions were ready and geared to support their colleagues because a deal that didn't affect the initial job-buyers was made.
Given comfortable time to adjust and tune the operation the owner/operator struck again. This time by moving the goalposts by trying to get everyone get under less favourable contracting.
Why not, as any- and everything dished out before was accepted.
Happy to accept any corrections to factual faults in the above.
Now being strange or on high horses might be a matter of perspective I guess.
Strange:
Do I believe that Norwegian core pilots are fighting a battle for the sake of all of us?
Not really, they are mostly getting what they paid for.
Do I support their case?
Definitely. I have no choice and their business is affecting my business.
Funny because I still (sentimental reasons) hold a copy of the polite letter to decline the kind offer to join the Norwegian succes story from more than ten years ago sent when asked to pay for a rating to join a "small but growing company that will take the lead of European skies"
Norwegian (core) pilots not sticking it to the community by buying a rating are easily counted.
Likewise the contributors to this forum who seem to think buying a job makes you a professional instead of a customer.
Most of the followers likewise.
High horses:
Consumer advice/disclaimer
All of the above is written on employer provided hardware on paid time off excluding any of the annual eight weeks vacation, user(s) discretion mandatory.
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The Sunday Times is reporting that Norwegian have applied for a UK AOC
One point missed in this marathon of union busting by Kjos, is that all those who oppose NAI in the USA have been watching events very closely indeed.
The AFL CIO and its affiliate unions, with 12.7 million members, is an opposing party to the NAI, Foreign Air Carrier Permit application, as are the 60,000 members of ALPA.
A UK AOC would change nothing. The Norwegian Airline Group has its principal place of business in non EU Member State, Norway. EFTA and EEA Agreements do not include the EU US Open Skies Agreement.
Too many "yes men" surround Kjos and compete to blow wind up his ass. Kjos will always have labour problems because he has no empathy whatsoever for workers standards, rights and principles.
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Direct bondi
One of the reasons that Norwegian's opponents in the USA have used is that in their view Irish oversight is weak and that the opportunity for the IAA to inspect Norwegian's operation is limited given that they do not fly to Ireland with EI plate aircraft, not an unreasonable point, SAFA's remit is somewhat different.
I think that with G plates on an UK AOC it would be much more difficult to deny them (Norwegian) open skies rights from the UK and elsewhere in Europe. The UK CAA for all its faults is respected world wide.
In a global economy it is increasingly difficult to define the principal place of business.
So yes i think it would be good to see DY flights with G plates
I think that with G plates on an UK AOC it would be much more difficult to deny them (Norwegian) open skies rights from the UK and elsewhere in Europe. The UK CAA for all its faults is respected world wide.
In a global economy it is increasingly difficult to define the principal place of business.
So yes i think it would be good to see DY flights with G plates
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Most flights to Finland have been cancelled today, because of a sympathy strike by Finnish ground handlers. Cheers.
http://www.finlandtimes.fi/travel/20...nds-to-Finland
http://www.finlandtimes.fi/travel/20...nds-to-Finland
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Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
Ah right. So you're hoping DY get an air of respectability by trying it on with a different "regulatory" agency (I use the term loosely when it comes to the CAA) and therefore shoehorning the shoddy employment practices through a different avenue via a country with only marginally tighter employment regulations than Ireland. Gotcha!
Tell me again why they don't just want to leave it all on the Norwegian register? Diversity?
Tell me again why they don't just want to leave it all on the Norwegian register? Diversity?
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So yes i think it would be good to see DY flights with G plates
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I only see one good point in G registry, and that would be associated with what/who we would get rid of, rather than what we may gain. . . . . all in my humble opinion of course. 
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Lard spandex I don't expect it. Nor am I a Norwegian pilot. I am however there to try and help my fellow pilots. Luckily you are one of the few who feel as you do.
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Not how it works. You can't accuse me of something and then weasel your way out of it. You can't put words into my mouth and expect not to have to back up your assertions. Explain yourself.
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gorter
Setting aside what you call shoddy employment practices, the principal reasons why Norwegian applied for an AOC outside of Norway is that Norway is not an EU country, Norway has an open skies accord with the EU allowing unrestricted access to/from for all European airlines and Norwegian airlines, but this will not allow Norwegian to operate on routes between EU countries and other countries where an open skies agreement exists e.g.; Europe to the USA, they have a temporary permit for LGW - USA but that will expire in March 2016.
The Norwegian social taxes are very high and can near double the employment costs of hiring a pilot this would make it impossible for Norwegian to compete on a level playing field even if it was giving employees the same package as BA pays it would still mean its costs would be far higher than BA.
Norwegian, like Ryanair and to a lesser extent easyJet are a trans European airline and it makes perfect sense for them and for many employee's to pay their taxes and social contributions in the country where they are based as required by European law. The have also invested heavily in both Malaga & Barcelona in ground based activities such as customer call centres and marketing amongst other things.
Whilst they have migrated from agencies such as Parc, Arpi & Confair to OSM the bigger change is that all employees are now on permanent contracts with 3 months notice rather than the old 1 months temp contracts, OSM also manage the HR functions for NAR.ES which employs pilots after 24 months, OSM are an agency NAR.ES is an wholly owned subsidiary, its activities are outsourced to OSM
All pilots will very shortly be fully complaint with the requirement of the tax authorities where they are based as required by law, ask any ex Ryanair ex pat and that is a huge peace of mind, its not perfect of course, Spanish based pilots of Danish origin and there are lots of them have difficulties over the lack of a double tax agreement between Spain and Denmark.
UK based pilots are now paid in GBP removing the exchange rate risk from UK pilots is a huge bonus, ask any Ryanair pilot paid in Euro's how much his/her converted salary has fallen since the pound surged before Xmas.
Much of Norwegians problems this past year have been down to the long haul project/vanity/fantasy take your pick and the knee jerk reaction to the red ink last Autumn and subsequent 60 layoff's, most of that was sorted before it happened and the damage to individuals was reduced, not all where high in debt and some took extended holidays/reduced working and in a couple of weeks that will be history.
The present dispute in Scandinavia is much more complicated and i will leave that alone, but no one i know off in the past 24months+ was ever promised a core contract or core T&C'S and certainly no Euro base pilot expected one, some Euro based pilots have moved into core but only off the back of moving to a core base in Scandinavia some are temp in core (seasonal) some are now permeant.
Hopefully an agreement between the company and the union will reached this next 48 hours and an agreement that both parties can live with for longer than the 12 month here we go again dispute that has been so damaging, having said that anyone who feels that this will set a new bench mark in pilot employment will likely be disappointed
The Norwegian social taxes are very high and can near double the employment costs of hiring a pilot this would make it impossible for Norwegian to compete on a level playing field even if it was giving employees the same package as BA pays it would still mean its costs would be far higher than BA.
Norwegian, like Ryanair and to a lesser extent easyJet are a trans European airline and it makes perfect sense for them and for many employee's to pay their taxes and social contributions in the country where they are based as required by European law. The have also invested heavily in both Malaga & Barcelona in ground based activities such as customer call centres and marketing amongst other things.
Whilst they have migrated from agencies such as Parc, Arpi & Confair to OSM the bigger change is that all employees are now on permanent contracts with 3 months notice rather than the old 1 months temp contracts, OSM also manage the HR functions for NAR.ES which employs pilots after 24 months, OSM are an agency NAR.ES is an wholly owned subsidiary, its activities are outsourced to OSM
All pilots will very shortly be fully complaint with the requirement of the tax authorities where they are based as required by law, ask any ex Ryanair ex pat and that is a huge peace of mind, its not perfect of course, Spanish based pilots of Danish origin and there are lots of them have difficulties over the lack of a double tax agreement between Spain and Denmark.
UK based pilots are now paid in GBP removing the exchange rate risk from UK pilots is a huge bonus, ask any Ryanair pilot paid in Euro's how much his/her converted salary has fallen since the pound surged before Xmas.
Much of Norwegians problems this past year have been down to the long haul project/vanity/fantasy take your pick and the knee jerk reaction to the red ink last Autumn and subsequent 60 layoff's, most of that was sorted before it happened and the damage to individuals was reduced, not all where high in debt and some took extended holidays/reduced working and in a couple of weeks that will be history.
The present dispute in Scandinavia is much more complicated and i will leave that alone, but no one i know off in the past 24months+ was ever promised a core contract or core T&C'S and certainly no Euro base pilot expected one, some Euro based pilots have moved into core but only off the back of moving to a core base in Scandinavia some are temp in core (seasonal) some are now permeant.
Hopefully an agreement between the company and the union will reached this next 48 hours and an agreement that both parties can live with for longer than the 12 month here we go again dispute that has been so damaging, having said that anyone who feels that this will set a new bench mark in pilot employment will likely be disappointed