Shocking or Acceptable behaviour?

[BusAirDriver]

parabellum - so please give references to those cases?

Proof!

"labour laws that govern it"

I am not sure if you are living in a paralleled universe, but I doubt even many of the airlines know what laws applies in these cases! It's all twisted!

[Heathrow Harry]

"As I said earlier, I am not sure it is legal to withhold references of fact (i.e. this guy worked here from date X to date Y etc) with a view to preventing future employment."

that is the case in the UK - not sure about anywhere else - to any potential employer absence of the words "honest", "hardworking" etc etc are a flashing red light anyway

"but I doubt even many of the airlines know what laws applies in these cases! It's all twisted!"

I'm willing to bet that airlines employ lawyers whereas its clear that many people, in their understandable but desperate, rush to become pilots, sign whatever is put in front of them and then start whining 2 years later

It's NOT twisted - you signed up to the deal

[Mach E Avelli]

If your local law makes it illegal to withold an employment reference, will this do?:

"This is to certify that.........worked for this company in the capacity of........ from ....... to .......
During his/her* employment he/she* always/usually/occasionally* (*delete as applicable) met the minimum regulatory flight standards. He left on short notice/gave the required notice* (*as applicable).

As the person reading this reference is probably one of our competitors, we would thoroughly recommend that you hire Mr/Ms............."

[drfaust]

The most pertinent thing I read in that e-mail, is to stick to your contract and coordinate with the company when you are going to leave. It's not so difficult. If you question the legality of the contract, don't sign it. Don't be a little girl afterwards. However, would I send the same e-mail if I was in that management position? Most certainly not. Even if I would, I would do my best not to come across as linguistically challenged.

Everyone should make their own decisions, but personally when it's my time to go I shall do so in a civilized and honorable fashion. What I think of the management, the source of the retention problems and in general their (financial/roster/holiday) treatment of people? Best answered over a cold beer, because however much someone has an axe to grind (I most certainly don't), it's not that simple to answer objectively. There are many good things here also, it's just that the three things I mentioned aren't it . They are the main cause of problems among the pilot community, not some e-mail written after some operational disturbances occurred. I definitely ain't losing any sleep over it.

And on a more philosophical note, if I think about it, I really don't respect any colleagues just jumping ship from one day to the next causing massive headaches for people on standby/available/off days trying to enjoy some time out of the cockpit. The only one that is disadvantaged in the end is the other pilot and the delayed passenger. The company will not die, you are not making any point, the money they will lose will be insignificant and you just end up being a **** to your colleagues. If I could, I'd like to avoid flying with people like that just as a matter of principle, whatever their quarrel with the company may be. Being professional doesn't just consist of demanding certain kinds of treatment, it also consists of exhibiting behaviors becoming of an officer and gentleman.

That being said I'd just like to add that I don't agree with many things the company does, I'm just not going to let that influence my behavior in a negative way. Keep your chin up and act accordingly.

[C_Star]

Amen, Bro!

[BusAirDriver]

Here is my suggested response to such bully tactics regardless:

Various Authorities have been informed, and if required the following response applies from official sources:

" this is bullying tactics and unfortunately frequent in the industry." &

"In regards to withholding security clearance documents etc this can be investigated if it needs to be"

Just because management writes an email like this, does not mean it should be accepted!
If various companies does not have qualified people to write contracts that can not be disputed, I have to say, that this is the fault of the company and not the crew!
If there are loop-holes that can be used, why should they not be used?
End of the day, everybody are used, either the company uses the pilots, or the pilots uses the company!

You reap what you sow!

[matzpenetration]

Is this email genuine? I'm not so sure. The standard of English is so poor and the content so badly written that it makes me think it was fabricated, (or heavily "edited") to elicit a response on this forum. If that was the case then it has achieved its aim.

There may be an element of truth in the content but it has more than a hint of sensationalism to it. Remember, there are plenty of non flyers out there who enjoy nothing more than a good wind up on this forum.

[Pucka]

As above..I can't believe, whoever the LCC actually is, that a manager could release, without a sub altern proof reading it, such a poorly written missive. That in itself should speak volumes as to the integrity and legal potential clout of that company..small c deliberate. Sadly, like many who have contributed to this thread, I too have spent 4 decades in this industry and quite frankly, it's descent into dumbing down the piloting profession, reducing the parameters of acceptable safety minimums and marginalising the essential components of the coal face..have caused me to recommend other professions to the kids even remotely considering flying.
...and the whole matter of bonding, itself a legal minefield..needs the pilot community to castigate it by NOT repaying the remaining bond if they leave early..the message sent to these companies will sooner or later..hit the mark.

[Heathrow Harry]

"needs the pilot community to castigate it by NOT repaying the remaining bond if they leave early."

but that would be straight illegal - if you loaned money to someone and they did a runner then the Feds would be after them; if you contract to doing something you have a legal obligation to do it if you can

You just can't tear up agreements because it no longer suits you

[BusAirDriver]

matzpenetration - The email is genuine! There is not editing, except removal of the names! The reaction of a few shows that this email is in fact genuine, and the ones working for this company know it is, because they have all seen it.

And yes, in some countries such an email would lead to some major court case and possible stop of operations, if seen to operate with such bully tactics.

Heathrow Harry - "but that would be straight illegal - if you loaned money to someone and they did a runner then the Feds would be after them;"

This is a civil matter, it is not a criminal case!

So far NOBODY has been able to provide details of a case where an airline has actually taken ANY pilots to court, with regards to such bonds! (where the airline have won such a case)

The bond alone is not the only matter.
People are offered to Self Fund their TR for approx. 14.000 Euros, with no bond attached to it.
The ones who do not self fund the TR, are offered a TR, deducted 15.000 Euros over 15 months, and then bonded for another 21 months.

One of the cases as such, is someone who has worked of and repaid 15.000 Euros over 15 months, and still threatened because of leaving before their 36 month period.

I would suggest that company has been so mismanaged that it is only a matter of time before they will start grounding flights, due to lack of crew!
A big bubble is about to burst!

[parabellum]

So far NOBODY has been able to provide details of a case where an airline has actually taken ANY pilots to court, with regards to such bonds! (where the airline have won such a case)

Can't post specific details here but I can assure you that Singapore Airlines has won court cases involving bonds, however they also did lose one in the USA which they chose not to take to appeal. I also know of two people who, instead of jumping ship, went to the office and negotiated a settlement that was exceptionally fair and easy.


In the cases you quote the amount of bond, E15,000. and period of return of service, 21 months, seems fair. Bear in mind that after only fifteen months on type you are of limited employability anyway, a different story after thirty six months on type.

[blind pew]

Ahhh The good old crew notice board letters posted early on a friday afternoon before they buggared off for the weekend.
By monday morning they had been edited in red ink....10AM they went missing...lunch time they were back up....only to have a few more red ink edits.....
How I miss those larfs on a weekend shuttle back up block in Queen's building!
Happy days

[BusAirDriver]

Comparing Singapore Airlines, with some EU Lo-Co, that are making up their own laws as they go along is not really a fair comparison!

Furthermore, it's beyond our knowledge that companies can not even make legally enforceable contracts, because the contracts are entirely one-sided, with complete lack of balance.

I can not see what is wrong, to use their (the companies) incompetence against them, when they have been using their crews to the limit of life!

These are not nice companies who care if you have personal problems, death in your family etc. that they will try to give you any compassion!

Their philosophy is based on 1800 style leadership! Giving some good to their work force is feared, because they believe if they give a little people want more and more!

Posting reports of millions in profit, believe last report said 1 million Euro a day (need to be verified), however regardless posting reports of great profits, yet they are squeezing their crews to the limits of what is safe and paying peanuts!

So the notion is from most, we are all getting by the company, so when the tables are turned, people will the company!

It's logical, what comes around goes around!

The likely future scenario, will be loads of DEC's (at higher pay on contracts - great for moral within the company!) and young inexperienced Cadets!

It's a ticking time bomb within, mismanaged from the top level, as they only think about what is good for the company and disregarding the conditions of the people working for them!

Of course some are happy, because they have no other options! But this is also a changing trend within the company.

[BusAirDriver]

Rumours or fact, that XXX Base crew tried to create a "union", and that CP went to visit them with the normal Gestapo tactics! Split up or face the firing squad! Another wonderful day with this company!

[WX Man]

Just out of interest, why do people WANT to leave this company so badly?

Just want to compare it to my lot, and see how much better/worse off I am.

[BusAirDriver]

WX Man do tell!

8/2 roster or 15/5 roster
850 - 900 hours a year
AIMS manipulated to remove positioning flights if not good for company
Constant mix earlies and late's
No Sick pay
No fatigue management in practical terms
People do not matter
The pay is one of the worst in the business
Fear politics, comply or Big Brother is going to make you walk the gallows!
A CP who has NO interest or power to do a job as a CP really should do, which is to protect his pilots. Self-serving politician with little or no experience of this role.

A positive, the most beautiful women as CC
For some that might be enough, unless you are a local!

[parabellum]

RexBanner/BusAirDriver - SIA don't limit themselves to locally convened tribunals, breach of bond, (contract), is a legal matter, they will take you straight to court and sue you. Someone said no employer had ever done it, I disagreed.
Hope you guys with that lousy employer manage to sort it out.

[WX Man]

@Busairdriver, nope... you've trumped me!

- Mostly 7/2,
- Mix of earlies, lates and nights
- No flight duty pay and no sector pay- the only money you take home is your salary, which in turn is one of the lowest for this a/c type in western Europe.
- Statutory minimum sick pay
- Statutory minimum holiday, but no wrap-around days
- Rostered well within FTL planning limits because it's commonplace to get asked to extend your duty finish time once you have started
- Company employ minimum staff, so every time someone goes sick you can be expected to be contacted on a day off

So it's different to your lot, probably slightly better... but not much.

[seventhreedriver]

This company is not really one, but each and every base seems to have different "conditions". The money is pretty much the same for captains, but the rostering / ease of commuting / group operations / general surroundings are worlds apart. I am presently based in RIX, and I have no real complaints. Yeah, the money could be more, and the sick pay is non existent, but the 6/4/6/4 roster works OK, the schedule is solid, and I have direct flights to my hometown, which I can afford a few times a months. And the politics, now that is the thing we are completely immune from. It is just too cold and windy.

That said, I would not work in most of the southern bases for the same salary. I did for almost 3 years, and I just had enough. The operational conditions were just too unpredictable. I voted with my feet... And I came back after 3 years. Not because it is the best company or all these rose tinted BS. I look at my life, this is still one of the best places for me to be. Nice base, solid job, decent savings, and still in Europe.

About this mail: Although the language is not as sophisticated it should be, and just because of it I tend to resent it, but if I look at the contents (hard to separate from the style), I have to agree with it. As long as I receive the salary which is in my contract, no matter how bad it is, I have no moral right to break my bond.

If you resign without enough notice, only your (ex) colleagues will suffer. It is occasionally hard, but replacement pilots are still possible to find from within.

[BusAirDriver]

6/4 works? In what world?

It finisishes late, and starts early, so if you find it acceptable that you ALWAYS commute home on your OFF days, then it "works"

But that means you do not have 6/4 roster, you have 8/2 roster or maybe if lucky 7/3

Looking at the big picture!

seventhreedriver - " I have to agree with it"
That's what is the problem with the industry today, people that unfortunately believe it is ok to be treated like this, and think this is normal and acceptable!

Because of this, people in this outfit will constantly be moaning and complaining, but nothing will ever change!

You are your own worst enemy.

Another "perk", your HP days are flawed. If you take 14 days HP days, already in your 6/4 roster, you could have 8 days OFF in this period. But you do not get your OFF days, you have to to work back your OFF days from your HP days!

As an example a friend of mine recently took 4 HP days with a proper company, also Lo-Co, with those 4 HP days, they gave him 2 wrap around days on each side, and another 2 days OFF from guaranteed. So for 4 HP days, they gave him in total 10 days OFF!

In your outfit/this outfit, for the same example you would loose 8 HP days to get the same amount of time OFF.

Not much you can do, as when this outfit is made to pay taxes and liabilities that is genuine, they will most likely going bankrupt!
This company is a gigantic tax scamming company, and sooner or later the authorities and regulations will catch up with them!

Why?

Because it is in the best interest of everybody, that all companies plays the game with the same rules!