Shocking or Acceptable behaviour?
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"if you had a firm belief"
wow!
I can see that standing up in a court of law
You sign the contract - no-one forced you to do it- they have an obligation to pay and you have an obligation to work
If you try to weasel out later then they can take action
wow!
I can see that standing up in a court of law
You sign the contract - no-one forced you to do it- they have an obligation to pay and you have an obligation to work
If you try to weasel out later then they can take action
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'To knowingly give false information in connection with an ID pass application is an offence under the Aviation Security Act 1982 as amended by the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990"
Wizzair ought to be a little more careful.
Wizzair ought to be a little more careful.
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The truth is that there are very people on this forum who know the first thing about what stands up in a court of law and what does not - that includes me. Again, I am a little wary of commenting on this type of thing as there is a significant amount of pertinent fact missing. My own personal experience is that whenever I have left an employer I have worked hard and reliably for them until the moment I left and never had one ounce of trouble from any of them. To walk out the door with bonds owing and with bad grace is extremely unwise. As I said earlier, I am not sure it is legal to withhold references of fact (i.e. this guy worked here from date X to date Y etc) with a view to preventing future employment. Also, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - if the company in question start to do this, then they will find themselves on the receiving end of such practices in the fullness of time. My own view is that spoiling practices like this, whatever the provocation from idiot pilots, are not in anyone's interests and should be avoided.
Shocking and unacceptable ?
Yes it is. The letters author is bordering on illiteracy. That is indeed shocking and unacceptable. I can only imagine how they operate an airline, in an industry that uses the English language to operate. The bullying tone and threats leave little doubt as to the source of their retention issues.
Yes it is. The letters author is bordering on illiteracy. That is indeed shocking and unacceptable. I can only imagine how they operate an airline, in an industry that uses the English language to operate. The bullying tone and threats leave little doubt as to the source of their retention issues.
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for those people saying the contract is illegal... quite convenient to say that now after you signed it, got your rating, got your hours, it is illegal. grow up work your proper notice and pay your outstanding bond if any ( and £16000 sounds quite reasonable to me ). fine withholding pertinent info is disturbing but a downright ****ty reference is at least in order, because if I was hiring I sure as h### wouldn't want to hire you.
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Be professional and don't burn your bridges - it's a small world.
They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.
Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more
Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....
Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.
They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.
Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more
Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....
Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.
highflyer40 for those people saying the contract is illegal... quite convenient to say that now after you signed it, got your rating, got your hours, it is illegal. grow up work your proper notice and pay your outstanding bond if any ( and £16000 sounds quite reasonable to me ). fine withholding pertinent info is disturbing but a downright ****ty reference is at least in order, because if I was hiring I sure as h### wouldn't want to hire you.
This absolutely amazes me - pilots actually defending a company that requires a pilot to pay for his own training. You are one step away from paying the company to allow you to work. Make no mistake; the above post makes HR managers squeal with glee.
The greatest defenders of this scam are those that have already payed for their job, and support pulling other pilots into the slime with them.
Read that email again and answer this question - Do you owe anything to a management that threatens to destroy your career, refuses to provide documentation that's required by law, and writes letters that could be attributed to a spiteful illiterate child ?
AMS - Be professional and don't burn your bridges - it's a small world.
They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.
Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more
Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....
Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.
They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.
Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more
Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....
Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.
You appear to be quite the fan of these schemes, and a hungry customer. Would you care to elaborate on your experience as an airline pilot ? It may put your advice into perspective for future 'candidates', who pay companies training costs.
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For the first time in my 20 year career, there appears to be a genuine pilot shortage. All the clues are there.
This email is just from some snarky senior manager seeing a supply/demand curve from a different perspective. He/she has just made the trickle of leavers a flood. Nothing beats the sound of a screaming baby from HR.
This email is just from some snarky senior manager seeing a supply/demand curve from a different perspective. He/she has just made the trickle of leavers a flood. Nothing beats the sound of a screaming baby from HR.
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some people just don't get it.. if you work your agreed notice as per the contract you signed when you joined then no problems. everyone is happy. some people on here are complaining because they can't simply walk away whenever they feel like it with no consequences.
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A lot of barrack room lawyers here. If I ever had any doubts about the legality of a contract I was going to sign I would either consult a legal expert or not sign it. Simple.
As far as the cost of training is concerned, apart from the fact that the above principle applies, there are hidden costs to training which may not be readily apparent to those who give the impression of being new to the aviation industry but I keep coming back to the fact that nobody is forced to sign a contract. If you are moving on, work your contracted notice unless you negotiate an earlier leaving date and pay back any monies that you agreed you would pay back.
Any threat to a person's career comes not so much from this particular company but rather from their own individual actions. Companies who inhabit the lower divisions of the airline game may well be slightly dubious but if you break a contract, you break a contract and any future employer will take this into account. Companies do talk to each other, it's a surprisingly small world and a bad personal reputation will stay with you for a long time. Please believe me, any potential future employer will not be sympathetic to an applicant who has not fulfilled the terms of their employment contract. Not from any particular moral standpoint but because you might do the same to them.
As far as the cost of training is concerned, apart from the fact that the above principle applies, there are hidden costs to training which may not be readily apparent to those who give the impression of being new to the aviation industry but I keep coming back to the fact that nobody is forced to sign a contract. If you are moving on, work your contracted notice unless you negotiate an earlier leaving date and pay back any monies that you agreed you would pay back.
Any threat to a person's career comes not so much from this particular company but rather from their own individual actions. Companies who inhabit the lower divisions of the airline game may well be slightly dubious but if you break a contract, you break a contract and any future employer will take this into account. Companies do talk to each other, it's a surprisingly small world and a bad personal reputation will stay with you for a long time. Please believe me, any potential future employer will not be sympathetic to an applicant who has not fulfilled the terms of their employment contract. Not from any particular moral standpoint but because you might do the same to them.
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One thing of note here,
An employee ( and yes, contractors are considered employees according to EU legislation) is NEVER responsible for an illegal contract, even if he/she signs it. It is the EMPLOYER who is responsible to ensure the offered contract is legal.
This is EU law ( and my dear UK friends, that legislation supercedes any medieval employment laws in your country, so accept it or get out of the EU).
An employee ( and yes, contractors are considered employees according to EU legislation) is NEVER responsible for an illegal contract, even if he/she signs it. It is the EMPLOYER who is responsible to ensure the offered contract is legal.
This is EU law ( and my dear UK friends, that legislation supercedes any medieval employment laws in your country, so accept it or get out of the EU).
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I think one question that is of importance here is the following. Try to keep company names out of this, because it is not useful or helpful for the debate. The ones who work there will know, the rest can guess, but this is not important.
Person X, has worked with the company for more than the 15 months required, and deducted 1000 Euros from his pay every month in addition few more months training period where the pay was pocket money only!
The additional "bond" is work requirement, to stay another 21 months and work if not they will penalize you with another 15.000 Euros to pay if you leave early. At to the fact, a completely one sided contract which states if you leave before the 3 months notice period you must compensate the company with 10.000 Euros.
One sided and unbalanced, as it does not say they must compensate you if they end your contract with less then 3 months notice period.
Person X, has worked with the company for more than the 15 months required, and deducted 1000 Euros from his pay every month in addition few more months training period where the pay was pocket money only!
The additional "bond" is work requirement, to stay another 21 months and work if not they will penalize you with another 15.000 Euros to pay if you leave early. At to the fact, a completely one sided contract which states if you leave before the 3 months notice period you must compensate the company with 10.000 Euros.
One sided and unbalanced, as it does not say they must compensate you if they end your contract with less then 3 months notice period.
despegue - I am not a lawyer but I would agree that if a contract is illegal in the first place you cannot be held to comply it whether in the EU or UK. What do you believe makes the contract under discussion illegal, have you seen the contract yourself? And if you have what part do you suggest differs under EU law and UK law?
PS there are many on here who wish desparately to leave the EU and all your rules so please don't throw that at us in this discussion you will just get peoples backs up. We are where we are at the moment.
I am on the side of those who believe if you sign a contract you are honourably bound to comply with it and work you notice and pay your bond or come to some amicable agreement to pay it off. You do not leave owing the company anything; if you do anticipate the consequences. Perhaps some believe that this contract is unreasonable and therefore in some way illegal, if so perhaps you could explain?
PS there are many on here who wish desparately to leave the EU and all your rules so please don't throw that at us in this discussion you will just get peoples backs up. We are where we are at the moment.
I am on the side of those who believe if you sign a contract you are honourably bound to comply with it and work you notice and pay your bond or come to some amicable agreement to pay it off. You do not leave owing the company anything; if you do anticipate the consequences. Perhaps some believe that this contract is unreasonable and therefore in some way illegal, if so perhaps you could explain?
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How many legal actions have been taken by airlines in such cases?
If the various airlines believed they had such a strong legal case, they would surely take action?
Legal action would be the correct action, let them have their day in court, instead of threatening with slander, defamation and under hand tactics that does not belong with a modern corporation.
This is a civil matter, that should be decided in court. I firmly believe the consequence of such legal action would cost these various airlines much more, as it would expose them for who they really are.
One of the first big questions would be, where would such legal action take place? As they have no clearly defined legal jurisdiction.
Only with legal action would it be clear if the contracts indeed are legal, if contracts are fair and balanced.
If the unions are serious about cleaning up in these affairs and contracts, it is time they put their money where their mouth is, and really challenge this once and for all, to get a clear legal precedence on this issue.
How can a large corporation take to using smear tactics against individuals to try to scare and terrorise people to comply with their demands, the first correct action of any serious and respectable business would be to involved proper legal proceedings against various individuals.
The word RESPECTABLE BUSINESS gets a whole new meaning within the aviation industry.
If the various airlines believed they had such a strong legal case, they would surely take action?
Legal action would be the correct action, let them have their day in court, instead of threatening with slander, defamation and under hand tactics that does not belong with a modern corporation.
This is a civil matter, that should be decided in court. I firmly believe the consequence of such legal action would cost these various airlines much more, as it would expose them for who they really are.
One of the first big questions would be, where would such legal action take place? As they have no clearly defined legal jurisdiction.
Only with legal action would it be clear if the contracts indeed are legal, if contracts are fair and balanced.
If the unions are serious about cleaning up in these affairs and contracts, it is time they put their money where their mouth is, and really challenge this once and for all, to get a clear legal precedence on this issue.
How can a large corporation take to using smear tactics against individuals to try to scare and terrorise people to comply with their demands, the first correct action of any serious and respectable business would be to involved proper legal proceedings against various individuals.
The word RESPECTABLE BUSINESS gets a whole new meaning within the aviation industry.
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In the good old days, whenever that was, airlines required new joins to be bonded for a sum of money. No money was paid up front but if the pilot left before the end of the bond period then they were liable for the outstanding amount.
Then someone left a company within the bond period and refused to pay the outstanding balance. The company concerned found that bonds were virtually unenforceable.
Companies then went to a pay upfront but get refunded at the end ofthe bond period to pay upfront and pay for the rating training etc no refund.
In general the process is to ensure that the company gets its monies worth and covers all the costs associated with hiring and training a new start.
Having signed a contract both parties are obliged to honour it. The company to pay for your labour and the pilot to supply that labour. Usually a breach of contract by either party allows the other to persue for damages, lost labour outstanding training bonds etc.
If you sign a contract as a pilot the usual notice period is 3 months, if you leave without giving that notice period you are in breach of contract. Simple as that.
So the company concerned is obviously alarmed at the large number of pilots leaving it's "utopian" company and has produced a knee jerk reaction.
Whether that knee jerk reaction is legal, ethically or morally acceptable or not, is a different matter as an employee you are in the first instance obliged to honour your part of the bargain.
If you feel that the contract you entered into is illegal then a, why the ******did you sign it? b, do something about it and get the lawyers involved.
Finally if your behaviour in the last weeks of a contract is causing disruption to the company then do not be surprised that the company takes action against you.
Then someone left a company within the bond period and refused to pay the outstanding balance. The company concerned found that bonds were virtually unenforceable.
Companies then went to a pay upfront but get refunded at the end ofthe bond period to pay upfront and pay for the rating training etc no refund.
In general the process is to ensure that the company gets its monies worth and covers all the costs associated with hiring and training a new start.
Having signed a contract both parties are obliged to honour it. The company to pay for your labour and the pilot to supply that labour. Usually a breach of contract by either party allows the other to persue for damages, lost labour outstanding training bonds etc.
If you sign a contract as a pilot the usual notice period is 3 months, if you leave without giving that notice period you are in breach of contract. Simple as that.
So the company concerned is obviously alarmed at the large number of pilots leaving it's "utopian" company and has produced a knee jerk reaction.
Whether that knee jerk reaction is legal, ethically or morally acceptable or not, is a different matter as an employee you are in the first instance obliged to honour your part of the bargain.
If you feel that the contract you entered into is illegal then a, why the ******did you sign it? b, do something about it and get the lawyers involved.
Finally if your behaviour in the last weeks of a contract is causing disruption to the company then do not be surprised that the company takes action against you.
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Seriously?!?!
How pathetic! 
the airline has been named several times so i won't repeat... but if it is that crowd I find it hilarious that these complaints are coming from guys who crawled over each other to accept the WORST airline contracts in the EU, and then cry that they aren't able to just down tools and walk off without any consequences?! (for context I have several friends who fly there so I am not biased)
For all the keyboard lawyers out there they will of course have to confirm 'J worked at X from Y to Z', but they can take their time about it which may cause delays in the issuance of your airside pass in the future if you cannot contact anyone to see what is going on.
Pilots really are a self-entitled bunch
For comparison I work for a small UK company facing a similar exodus and we received a similar email a while back. Several guys walked out without notice and will obviously not be welcomed back should there new airlines ever spit them out.
So I rang my boss and said I would probably be leaving in 6 weeks and I would give him a months notice as soon as I had confirmation, he said thank you for the heads up and I am leaving on good terms. Is it that hard?
I'm about to sign a 3 year bond and i fully expect to have to pay up if I decide to bail before then
the airline has been named several times so i won't repeat... but if it is that crowd I find it hilarious that these complaints are coming from guys who crawled over each other to accept the WORST airline contracts in the EU, and then cry that they aren't able to just down tools and walk off without any consequences?! (for context I have several friends who fly there so I am not biased)
For all the keyboard lawyers out there they will of course have to confirm 'J worked at X from Y to Z', but they can take their time about it which may cause delays in the issuance of your airside pass in the future if you cannot contact anyone to see what is going on.
Pilots really are a self-entitled bunch
For comparison I work for a small UK company facing a similar exodus and we received a similar email a while back. Several guys walked out without notice and will obviously not be welcomed back should there new airlines ever spit them out.
So I rang my boss and said I would probably be leaving in 6 weeks and I would give him a months notice as soon as I had confirmation, he said thank you for the heads up and I am leaving on good terms. Is it that hard?
I'm about to sign a 3 year bond and i fully expect to have to pay up if I decide to bail before then
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"bonds were virtually unenforceable." & "Usually a breach of contract by either party allows the other to persue for damages"
There is of course 2 sides to every story!
As I said earlier I am not interested in outing the company or any names, so we will leave it at that.
Just a few points, breach of contract or invalid contract due to unreasonable terms, or misrepresentation by the airlines of the work relation, makes this a minefield for the airline to enter into!
As I have mentioned earlier, what is the reason the airlines do not take legal action?
If they win they win the case, problem solved!
It does seem more like private parking companies, trying to enforce a penalty for parking on private land! Not enforceable, because it is not legal! They can only claim for factual cost, if 1 Euro per hour, they can only claim this in the court!
So it seems by some, that primitive bullying, and personal threats is the right way an employee should be treated, instead of proper legal action, where both sides are able to defend themselves properly.
So why not just let companies do as they like, and ignore the laws that govern them, and ignore the legal rights of people, as many of you believe this is the right way.
The crux of the matter, is that there is a reason it is unforceable, and that the companies will loose if they take this to court! But it seems like some prefer to ignore this little unknown fact!
There is of course 2 sides to every story!
As I said earlier I am not interested in outing the company or any names, so we will leave it at that.
Just a few points, breach of contract or invalid contract due to unreasonable terms, or misrepresentation by the airlines of the work relation, makes this a minefield for the airline to enter into!
As I have mentioned earlier, what is the reason the airlines do not take legal action?
If they win they win the case, problem solved!
It does seem more like private parking companies, trying to enforce a penalty for parking on private land! Not enforceable, because it is not legal! They can only claim for factual cost, if 1 Euro per hour, they can only claim this in the court!
So it seems by some, that primitive bullying, and personal threats is the right way an employee should be treated, instead of proper legal action, where both sides are able to defend themselves properly.
So why not just let companies do as they like, and ignore the laws that govern them, and ignore the legal rights of people, as many of you believe this is the right way.
The crux of the matter, is that there is a reason it is unforceable, and that the companies will loose if they take this to court! But it seems like some prefer to ignore this little unknown fact!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The crux of the matter, is that there is a reason it is unforceable, and that the companies will loose if they take this to court! But it seems like some prefer to ignore this little unknown fact!
Very few companies will issue a contract that is in direct conflict with the labour laws that govern it. There are contract lawyers all over the place so getting a contract checked is fairly easy. Very few, if any, countries have a blanket law which states that training bonds are unenforceable, what they do say is that the amount of outstanding bond must be justified by the employer. A bond is just a contract and providing the amount of money involved is reasonable I doubt many courts would find in favour of an employee who breaches the conditions of the bond.